Yes I know -- the Tichy latches are for the PFE R-40-4. I guess
I should have said "those particular PFE R-30-18 latches" ?
^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^

Tim O'Connor responds to:

It looks like the Proto:88 wheelsets are best route to go.

With:

Rich, if you use that terminology you're going to confuse the
Proto:87 modelers!

Not only them...but a few others as well.

The Reboxx and other .088 profile wheels are

not prototypical -- they are NMRA RP conforming wheelsets.

Well...like Dennis Storzek notes...I don't think this is totally accurate. I haven't found a "code 88" wheel yet that conforms to the NMRA RP-25 code 88 wheel. The term "code 88" [ an NMRA term ] refers to the width of the total wheel...flange plus tread. At least some wheels appear to be code 88 treads [ RP-25 width of .063" ] with code 110 flanges. Such a wheel will operate successfully through frogs built to NMRA Track Standard 3.2 as long as the frog is less than that associated with a number 10 turnout. As the distance between the point of the frog to the wing rail increases...and it does as frog numbers increase...the distance that the wheel's tread must travel to find the wing rail for support increases. A wider tread permits the tread to reach this support sooner than that of a more narrow one. Track flangeways built to NMRA Standard 3.2 are designed to accomodate the wheel tread of a code 110 wheel. The so-called code 88 wheel [ with code 110 flange ] will present a more accurate appearance with its more narrow wheel tread but when a more accurate sized turnout is used, the wheel will fall into the gap between the point of the frog and wing rail. Note that a number 10 turnout frog...larger than probably 99% of those used by modelers...is too small for prototypical mainline function and is primarily of industrial siding size. The frog sizes for the turnout at Dale Jct on Sherman Hill are number 20.

I should note as well that there might, indeed, be real code 88 wheels being produced. I would use them on frogs built to NMRA S-3.2 with concern.

Tim continues with:

Proto:87 wheelset will not run on NMRA standard trackwork.

Tim probably refers to NMRA Tracdk Standard S-3.2. The NMRA has a track standard for Proto 87...S-3.1 and wheels built to Proto 87 standards will run on track built to such standards.

Mike Brock

Didn't cars use much more oil years ago? I remember a neighbor had
a '48 or '49 car when I was a kid in the mid '50s and he was always
putting oil in his car from a box of glass bottles with metal tops
which he would get refilled.

I have no recollection of my father ever putting oil in his car; it
must have been done much less frequently at a service station.

Maybe our neighbors car burned lube oil with the gas like a lawn
mover, either by design or circumstance.

Were triple dome tank cars were used to transport lube oil in bulk?
That way a smaller shipment could be sent.


Ed

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Andy, those PFE latches are a different style. The original request
was, I think, looking for the TICHY/SUNSHINE style latches which have
a series of holes in them, presumably for pinning the hatches open at
any desired angle. The later latches are a "ratchet" style with stops
for holding the hatches open.

Calling them "PFE" won't do, because PFE used both styles at different times.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I can't let this one pass uncorrected. You've got it exactly backwards,
Tony; wood is relatively stable along the length of the grain, but shrinks
and swells appreciably across the grain.

Dennis is right and I was wrong. I was confusing the shrinkage with strength data I was using recently.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

--- In STMFC@..., "Thomas Baker" <bakert@...> wrote:

A logical assumption would be that the equipment, along with the

railway, transferred to the CGW. But in the corporate world logical
assumptions are not always the order of the day. It is possible
that the stock cars were already nearing the end of their useful
life and were simply retired. I know that I once saw a photo of an
M&StL stock car at the Spring Valley depot. The shot was taken in
the teen years of the previous century, and I the appearance of the
car leads me to believe that it did not make it into the late
Forties and may have been gone sooner than that. Thanks, Gene, for
your help and thanks, Tim. Still, I do wonder whether any photos of
those cars exist.

I don't know if this car was one under discussion but I recall that
Charlie Winters has a photo of a CGW truss rod stock car. The car
may had had wood outside braces like the NTCentral stock cars. I
don't know if this was a Sisk/Winters negative or one added to the
collection.

Ed

Garth Groff wrote:

Two comments: Pennzoil used to ship in bulk to packaging plants.
There is/was one in Alameda, California on the Alameda Belt Line, a
small facility with just two tracks and probably covering about 1/4
city block. Just model size. Perhaps Quaker State did this too.

And in the old days the containers were 100% steel; such speciality
containers were usually *not* cranked out at the nearest can factory as such
facilities were normally dedicated to making food cans... usually for the
cannery right next door. So in practical terms for a modeler this makes
empty cans of this sort something that would be shipped over greater
distances than one might guess (especially on the west coast where demand
for food cans often exceeded locally produced supply). Paint cans are
another such speciality item.

Dave Nelson

--- In STMFC@..., "Justin Kahn" <harumd@...> asked:

So my question might be: where do model
railroaders NOW go in NYC for all the things STMFC members require

(and need

I live in the suburbs of NYCity and never have had any luck in
finding a hobby shop that carried a lot of specialized parts.

There's one section of Manhattan that has a couple of big train
shops but the last time I was there they had little of what I wanted
and the big discounts on Tichy kits were "mail order only".

It's costly and time consuming to get around the city.

Believe it or not my local hobby shop is Trainland in Lynbrook which
was very good fpr P2K kits but nothing else. Years ago when they
were Mulrany they carried parts.

There's a little train shop a few miles farther with a lot of
inventory, just not what I want.

In the past Willis hobbies has been pretty good for kits. They have
had 3 progressively larger stores since I've been going there. The
last few visits haven't been very productive and it's over an hour
round trip.

The amount of new items coming out is staggering and if a new
specialty item doesn't sell quickly it stays on their shelves for
years. Plus small, less expensive items get lost in the store. Their
inventory of slow moving items is increasing at a break neck pace.
If they'd have parts from Red Caboose, Intermountain or Bowser
they'd stay there forever along with the Champ, Walthers and Herald
king decals they still have.

I'm sure this is killing a lot of hobby shops as the hobby gets
fragmented.

Andy Carlson has the right idea. I buy few kits these days but most
of the recent ones have been from him. If specialized hobby shops
would show their inventory on the internet maybe they could get some
business.

I used to do a lot of special orders from mail order dealers using
the Walthers catalog. The last few times the dealers couldn't be
bothered to do all the paperwork and still give me a discount. I
think even Walthers is wising up to the fact that specialized parts
sit on the shelve for years.

25 years ago I built a lot of Ambroid kits, waiting for the phone to
ring. In a few months I exhausted all the kits at the few hobby
shops in Rochester. I bought more kits through the classifieds in
MR, at swap meets and then started writing hobby shops. Many
responded with hand written lists, offering kits that had been on
their shelves for years for less than list price.

Ed

My original post omitted this group. Use John's link below from tinyurl.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni

------ Forwarded Message
From: John Huey <mancosbob@...>
Reply-To: <Espee@...>
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 08:41:18 -0800 (Pacific Standard Time)
To: Espee List <Espee@...>, <MFCL@...>, RPM
<RPM-forum@...>, <bbfcl@...>,
<ModelersChoice@...>, RITS <ritslist@...>, PCL
List <PassengerCarList@...>
Subject: fixed the link to the Dremel tool Re: [Espee] New Dremel Tool

http://tinyurl.com/lam5u

I don't think that is it, because the items I referred to in my original response were on the sides of the cars, under (lower than) the side ladders. Push pole pocket is the only thing called out on the diagram, but as I said in my last post, that's probably not much help. At the risk of creating another roofwalk/outside-braced bit of nomenclature, maybe you could call them corner castings.

--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


"leakinmywaders" <leakinmywaders@...> wrote:

Checking a few more pics, I see that some designs of side stirrup
steps �do attach to side faces of these corner pieces.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

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Well, that would appear to be item 52 on the diagram: the "push pole pocket." That's not much help, is it, since some of them don't actually have the pockets on them. Maybe after poling was banned they were called "the items formerly known as push pole pockets." <G>

--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


"leakinmywaders" <leakinmywaders@...> wrote:

Rich: �Hmmm...maybe. I don't have access to that issue of PM, �so I'll
try again: �They are the pieces at the outermost point of the four
bottom corners of the car, on the cars that have them. They project
vertically downward from the corner posts, and like Tim suggests, they
look like they may be fabricated or possible cast pieces. Visually
they look like a continuation the side sills wrapping around the
corners, but they usually appear to project a little lower. �On many
cars the grabiron-style steps on the end sills do attach to them.
From the side view, they are immediately toward the ends from the side
stirrup attachment points--i.e., side stirrups usually do not appear
to attach to them. �They sometimes have poling pockets on the end
faces--and that indeed may be their functional origin, more
essentially than as step attachments. � They seem to be common on
1930s-1940s-era steel boxcars and less common on later builds or
rebuilds. Some examples from HO models: �they are part of the casting
on IMRC 12-panel boxcar shells and Red caboose AAR boxcar shells, but
not not IMRC or Kadee PS-1 boxcars.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

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Checking a few more pics, I see that some designs of side stirrup
steps do attach to side faces of these corner pieces.

--- In STMFC@..., Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...> wrote:

Sounds good, Tim, but 'tain't so. Many flat car drawings show
interlocking or T&G planking; and every photo I've ever seen sure looks
like it is laid real tight. I've never seen any crown, either. Anyway,
most expansion from damp is along the grain, and that's across the deck
width, not along the deck from board to board.

I can't let this one pass uncorrected. You've got it exactly backwards, Tony; wood is relatively stable along the length of the grain, but shrinks and swells appreciably across the grain. This is useful for making barrels, water tanks, and hot tubs water tight; simply fit the boards to be a good fit when dry, then fill with water. As the wood swells, it expands against the steel hoops and tightens to the point that it doesn't leak.

How does this affect flatcar decks? It doesn't. Just like the barrel bands and tank hoops, the flatcar frame is so much stronger than the amount of pressure generated by the swelling wood that the wood just compresses. It doesn't tear loose from its fastenings because the fastenings are HUGE; 1/2" or 5/8" diameter bolts as I recall.

Why drain the deck at all? Railroad cars rarely sit dead level, and anyway the water will just shake or blow off a moving car. Years ago, when I worked for the transit authority, we always wedged or jacked platform decking tight; gaps between the boards were considered a tripping hazard. Evaporation was relied on to dry the deck surface.


Dennis Storzek

--- In STMFC@..., "leakinmywaders" <leakinmywaders@...> wrote:
....Some examples from HO models: they are part of the casting

on IMRC 12-panel boxcar shells and Red caboose AAR boxcar shells, but
not not IMRC or Kadee PS-1 boxcars.

To clarify, they are part of the end castings on models with separate
ends.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

It looks like the Proto:88 wheelsets are best route to go.

Rich, if you use that terminology you're going to confuse the
Proto:87 modelers! The Reboxx and other .088 profile wheels are
not prototypical -- they are NMRA RP conforming wheelsets. A
Proto:87 wheelset will not run on NMRA standard trackwork.
There are HO wheelsets with prototypical width treads but with
NMRA flanges -- NWSL sells them and calls them Proto:HO. They
will run on good NMRA standard trackwork, most of the time.

Tim O'Connor

That's not quite right either. The proper name for the NMRA RP-25 wheel that is .088" wide is "Code 88", as defined in NMRA RP-25.

The NWSL PROTO:HO wheelsets are bastard mix of scale size wheels (the same wheel profile that they sell as P:87) mounted on the axle to the NMRA S-4.2 back-to-back dimension. The intention was to create a wheelset that would work through turnouts built to NMRA S-3 standards (properly gauged P:87 wheels come nowhere near the gaurdrails). The problem is that while the PROTO:HO wheels are properly guarded, the narrow tread drops into the frog and gets lost, never to return. Filling the frog doesn't help, as the P:87 flange depth is less than half the RP-25 standard, and so once modified, standard wheels can't use the track anymore. As a compromise design, it just doesn't work.



Dennis Storzek

Rich: Hmmm...maybe. I don't have access to that issue of PM, so I'll
try again: They are the pieces at the outermost point of the four
bottom corners of the car, on the cars that have them. They project
vertically downward from the corner posts, and like Tim suggests, they
look like they may be fabricated or possible cast pieces. Visually
they look like a continuation the side sills wrapping around the
corners, but they usually appear to project a little lower. On many
cars the grabiron-style steps on the end sills do attach to them.
From the side view, they are immediately toward the ends from the side
stirrup attachment points--i.e., side stirrups usually do not appear
to attach to them. They sometimes have poling pockets on the end
faces--and that indeed may be their functional origin, more
essentially than as step attachments. They seem to be common on
1930s-1940s-era steel boxcars and less common on later builds or
rebuilds. Some examples from HO models: they are part of the casting
on IMRC 12-panel boxcar shells and Red caboose AAR boxcar shells, but
not not IMRC or Kadee PS-1 boxcars.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

--- In STMFC@..., richtownsend@... wrote:

Hmm. The March/April 1990 Prototype Modeler had a diagram that

called out 223 different items on a 50-ton AAR standard 40-foot
boxcar. I'm not completely sure of what item I think you are
referring to, but it might be the sill step bracket, which is the
piece below the side ladder (and below the level of the side sill) to
which the sill step (sometimes called the stirrup step)is attached.
Is that the piece you are referring to?

--
Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon


"leakinmywaders" <leakinmywaders@...> wrote:

What's the proper term for the four skirting pieces that extend from
the corner posts downward to the sometimes just below the level of the
side sills on many steel boxcars? I've been calling them "corner post
skirts" because I've not seen them identified in any of the usual
sources, but it's been nagging me because I need to describe the part
in a modeling wrtite-up I'm working on. Also, can any one give me a
description of their function? Whatever it is, it must be optional,
because I find myself spending a considerable amount of modeling time
adding them to some PS-1 boxcars and taking them off some AAR-type
boxcars to match various prototypes.

Note, it seems this is one visible detail even Kadee overlooks on
certain of its PS-1 boxcar models.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT

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Andy, those PFE latches are a different style. The original request
was, I think, looking for the TICHY/SUNSHINE style latches which have
a series of holes in them, presumably for pinning the hatches open at
any desired angle. The later latches are a "ratchet" style with stops
for holding the hatches open.

I recommended the TICHY latches because they are rendered in 3D and
are nicely done. The SUNSHINE latches are not as detailed (only 2D)
although they are more durable. Some WESTERFIELD reefer kits also
have these latches in resin, but also are fragile like TICHY. They
are only detailed on one side because they are cast flat.

The TICHY latches are on a large sprue, and that I imagine is why Don
Tichy has never offered them in bulk at a discount, because he'd still
have to cast the whole sprue for a tiny number of parts.

Tim O'Connor

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Rich, if you use that terminology you're going to confuse the
Proto:87 modelers! The Reboxx and other .088 profile wheels are
not prototypical -- they are NMRA RP conforming wheelsets. A
Proto:87 wheelset will not run on NMRA standard trackwork.
There are HO wheelsets with prototypical width treads but with
NMRA flanges -- NWSL sells them and calls them Proto:HO. They
will run on good NMRA standard trackwork, most of the time.

Thanks for tip Tim. Someone on another list used this term hence my use
of it (I guess that can be a bad habit). I'll be careful of that in the
future.

--Rich

Andy, how can I contact you? I'd like to order and try out these parts. They are HO scale?
Don Worthy
Ivey, Ga.

Andy Carlson <midcentury@...> wrote:
Jerry,
The parts sprue from Terry Wegmann's PFE Reefers is
also available (from me). In addition to the hatch
cover latches, Ajax power brake & wheel, brake
platform & support brackets, the casting for mounting
the power brake to dreadnaught ends (useful for box
cars as well),pair of 6 rung ladders, and running
board end brackets. Many useful parts. These sell for
$2.00 post paid.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
<midcentury@...>

--- Jerry Dziedzic <jerdz@...> wrote:

Another source is Sunshine. They offer etched metal
(stainless, I
think)latch bars. The holes are rendered with
dimples, which aren't
easy to drill out. However, they look good once in
place on a model
and painted. You could flick the dimples with a
fine Sharpie to give
them more contrast, although I've never found it
necessary to do so.

Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ

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Jerry,
The parts sprue from Terry Wegmann's PFE Reefers is
also available (from me). In addition to the hatch
cover latches, Ajax power brake & wheel, brake
platform & support brackets, the casting for mounting
the power brake to dreadnaught ends (useful for box
cars as well),pair of 6 rung ladders, and running
board end brackets. Many useful parts. These sell for
$2.00 post paid.
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA
<midcentury@...>

--- Jerry Dziedzic <jerdz@...> wrote: