Date   

NP flat kit

joe binish <joebinish@...>
 

Fellow freight car nuts,
I receeived my NP 52' flat kit in the mail from Northern Specific models
today. Really nice, enough that I am putting off working on other stuff
that would earn fame and fortune to put it together! I hope to get it done
for an op session this weekend, albeit empty(the lumber load will have to
wait!)I have no connection with Northern Specific Models, just a happy
customer!
Joe Binish


Re: % private owner tank cars

Tim O'Connor
 

From: Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>

Among the 111,183 privately owned tank cars, GATC owned 48,134 (30.5% of
the 158 thousand total) under its GATX, TCX and other reporting marks;
UTLX was second with 42,121 (26.6%) - these two firms owned 57.1% of all
tank cars in the US.
=======================================================

Or a more concise way of saying to modelers is: Unless you model the
N&W or one of the other coal-intensive roads, about 5% (1 in 20) of all
the cars on your layout should be either GATC or UTLX tank cars.

Now here's a fun newbie test: List all of the accurate models of GATC
or UTLX tank cars in HO scale (not brass imports or resin kits) for steam
era modelers.

(...... Jeopardy music playing .....)

Time's up! You guessed: none? THAT'S RIGHT! What do we have for
our modeling contestant tonight? Wow! An annual trip to Naperville
(no expenses paid) and you get to scratchbuild your entire roster of
General American tank cars! (You can buy some UT kits in resin.)

You do get the satisfaction of being a steam era modeler. For people
who model the 1980's to the present, the percentage of scratchbuilt
tank cars goes from 5% to about 20% of the entire roster.

Tim O'Connor


Old Tank Cars Never Die - ACFX 13525

George Gounley <gounleys@...>
 

Shawn Bekert asked, " Related STMFC question: Would the 40-year rule apply from the
original built-date of a tank car if it had been rebuilt, or would the rule get waived?"

The age of the tank is irrelevant in applying age-of-car rules, so rebuilt status can be achieved without working on the tank at all. In fact, a 40 or 50 year old tank can be placed on a brand new through sill underframe and the car, so far as the interchange rules are concerned, is brand new. Some alloy tanks are extremely expensive and not cost effective to scrap, provided the tank can keep passing the tests and the quantity of product the tank can hold is still efficient to ship.

Add the following to stock car loads that have been sighted: barrel staves, riprap.

George Gounley
gounleys@...


Re: Freight cars in New England

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

Armand,

Ooops, I meant to include the link to A&R -- thanks Ted.

BTW for Ted's reference one of them (volume 3??) includes a bonus of a cab ride in a CN
diesel and a bunch of stuff shot in Wilimantic.

Marty McGuirk

--- In STMFC@..., Ted Culotta <tculotta@...> wrote:


On Mar 22, 2006, at 6:53 PM, A. Premo wrote:

Marty,What is the source of these DVDs?Armand Premo
Armand:

A&R Productions at www.classicrailroadvideos.com. I'll vouch for the
CV stuff too, as well as others, including the NH DVD.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Another question from the newbie...

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

RichBeau wrote:

You'll know you've truly become a freight car
fanatic when someone shows you a great photo
of a locomotive, and you start looking at the
cars in the yard behind it <VBG>!!
This is exactly where I'm at! I must be in trouble. My other told me
not to hang 'round with the wrong crowd. <LOL>

I have the Robert Willoughby Jones Boston & Maine book. I keep trying
to see the logo and serial number (?) of the cars tagging along
behind. I figured that was the best place to start - model those
specific cars that I had photo graphic proof that they were here.
Rich,

What year and what area of New England are you modeling? There is no sense in modeling a car series which either had not been built or retired in the year in which you are modeling.

From a practical point of view, you can be sure that almost every significant boxcar series (of over 500 cars) appeared in New England in the year you are modeling providing that they were listed in a contemporary ORER. You can be less sure if the roster total was less than 500, but the criterion here would not be "guilty without a doubt," but more reasonable than not. You will not be far off if you use cars from Ted Cullota's ESSENTIAL FREIGHT CAR series providing the boxcar series had not been retired in the year in which you model.

And then there is the issue about the paint scheme of the boxcar series for the year in which you are modeling.

Ask yourself why did the photographer pull the trigger? When shooting a freight car, he did want to waste film on the mundane. Instead, he shot the exotic which grabbed his eye. I don't think you want to have a railroad full of freight cars which were exotic exceptions - focus in on the mundane. (Another criticism of Maywald's work.)

I believe there is a tape of a New England RR with an L&N center drop bottom gondola. While I cannot dispute that the car was in New England at a certain point of time at a specific location, I would consider it a rarity because coal mines served by the L&N in Kentucky were not generally sources of coal in New England. Indeed, it probably got to New England with a load which was in conflict with Car Service Rule C-411 which mandated empty coal cars of the C&O, L&N, N&W and VGN be returned to their owners without reloading.

While Car Service Rules were largely ignored, this one appears to have been obeyed because it was simple and direct. Most of the other rules were abstract - for instance, Rule #1, "Home cars shall be used for the movement of traffic beyond the limits of the home road when the use of other suitable cars under these rules is practical." What was a suitable foreign car empty and how close it it was to the shipper provided some wiggle room and use of judgment.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert


Re: Freight cars in New England

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Mar 22, 2006, at 6:53 PM, A. Premo wrote:

Marty,What is the source of these DVDs?Armand Premo
Armand:

A&R Productions at www.classicrailroadvideos.com. I'll vouch for the CV stuff too, as well as others, including the NH DVD.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Alternate Stock Car Loads - was Another question from the newbie...

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

Mike,

Bagged coal was also carried in stockcars on backhaul or during seasonal lulls. I believe some
railroad stockcars (Santa Fe? for one) were equipped with floor gates (like those in some
gons) for carrying commodities like coal and coke.

Marty McGuirk


Re: Freight cars in New England

armprem
 

Marty,What is the source of these DVDs?Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "cvsne" <mjmcguirk@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 6:24 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Freight cars in New England


Specifically for New England cars the three or four tapes (I believe they are now available in
DVD format) in the "Central Vermont Railway in Steam" includes lots of neat shots showing
the whole train -- I've garnered a lot of projects from those tapes.

Marty McGuirk

In STMFC@..., "Ron Morse" <ronstrainshop@...> wrote:

I have been following this a little but have not seen any one mention
all the great vintage videos that show cars in passing trains and
yards of the many roads that provide cars for those trains. They are a
good source for freight train consist as well as books and magazines.
Ron Morse
NYC/C&O O scale: modeling,somewhat, Southern Michigan in Springfield,MO






Yahoo! Groups Links








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Re: Another question from the newbie...

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "RichBeau" <RichBeau@...> wrote:

This is exactly where I'm at! I must be in trouble. My other told me
not to hang 'round with the wrong crowd. <LOL>
Welcome to the nut house . . . most of us on this list have been trading e-mails, good -
natured ribbing (which some misinterpret as insults) -- and best of all information -- for
going on a decade + now . . .

Wow, Richard and Tony are getting old . . .

Oh, and there's always room for one more nut . . .



I have the Robert Willoughby Jones Boston & Maine book.
Which one? There are two B&M Books, as well as a book on Vermont railroads called
"Green Mountain Rails" -- all are well worth the price.

I keep trying
to see the logo and serial number (?) of the cars tagging along
behind. I figured that was the best place to start - model those
specific cars that I had photo graphic proof that they were here.
I tried that with Central Vermont trains, and got a lot of potential projects -- including the
long elusive B&A State of Maine car . . . from photo studies. The problem with the photo
analysis of course, is that you're usually looking at the cars behind the engine or in front
of the van. Since trains were blocked you'll start to notice a remarkable similarity among
the cars in the same train on different days or seasons. It doesn't make it a BAD idea to
study the pics, just something you need to keep in mind.

I concluded my "picture" study of CV trains years ago -- in the interim I latched onto a
large number of CV Form 852's (essentially conductor's wheel reports) that included
reporting marks and car numbers -- all for a one week period in late 1953. Those have
given me enough projects to last three lifetimes.



Thanks Richard for the critque of the Classic Freight Cars books and
mentioning that they are a bit suspect (Garth Groff also wrote of
these problems in a private email). Your list is most helpful and
gives me some good directions to look.
Richard's list is excellent, and are really an "essential" library for the freight car modeler/
historian. I'll add the Morning Sun color books are worth consideration. You'll want to
certainly add "Color Guide to Northern New England Freight and Passenger Equipment" by
Dave Sweetland to your bookshelf. It covers B&M, CV, B&A, Rutland, CP(IofM), and MEC
equipment -- most of which is from the steam era (A LOT of the Morning Sun rolling stock
guides show steam era cars in later schemes -- Dave Sweetland was one of those who
took color photos of cars in the 1950s . . .)

Another excellent book for pictures of steam era cars in their natural habitat is Central
Vermont Railway in Color (I know some dedicated Western road modelers added this one
to their library based on the freight car pics alone. It shows lots of pictures of steam
engines -- with a bunch of the cars behind them quite visible.

There are several B&M "Trackside" Books which are good -- but I've stopped buying them
because they all seemed to develop a "sameness" -- a bunch of pictures of North Station.
And I simply don't need to spend the money or shelf space on that. As a B&M fan, YMMMV,
however.

And, although not the subject of this list -- when you've had your fill of freight cars be
sure to get a copy of "Passenger Trains of Northern New England."


Bruce & Tim the overviews are great stuff! Thank you. I have been
looking at the various documents in the files area so with your most
recent 20,000-foot view and Tim Gilbert's comments (plus Tim's very
good synopsis in the files area) I at least have a much better grasp
of reality (As if I ever had one, as the opening of this psoting
atests <g>).
If you want something -- anything -- reduced to numbers and analyzed, Tim's your man.
<g> -- Seriously, he's been a big help to me, and many others, over the years. As a B&M
fan, you're doubly lucky since Tim is rumored to have a "minor" interest in the Minuteman
Route as well . . .
Hope this lengthy post is helpful in some small way, and again, welcome -- there's always
room for one more nut . . .

Marty McGuirk


Re: % private owner tank cars

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:


On Mar 22, 2006, at 12:36 PM, ed_mines wrote:
Group, what % of private owner tank cars would you estimate in
the '40s? Shipper marked cars owned by the leasing companies? Some of
these leased cars alomsot look like billboards.
Ed,

Tim Gilbert provided the following information back in 2001.

On December 31, 1942 the ownership of US tank cars was:
Total Railroad-Owned 9,163
Total Privately Owned 140,971
Total "American" Owned 149,426

I'm not sure what percentage of the private cars were "plain jane" and what were more decorated.
Bruce,

Tank Car ownership was provided for the first time in the 1954 Blue Book. The roster totals can be broken down into the following categories:

Total US Tank Cars 158,112 100.0%
Railroad-Owned 6,949 4.4%
Privately Owned 151,183 95.6%
Private Car Lines 111,615 70.6%
Shipper-Owned 31,246 19.8%
Unknown 8,322 5.3%

Among the 111,183 privately owned tank cars, GATC owned 48,134 (30.5% of the 158 thousand total) under its GATX, TCX and other reporting marks; UTLX was second with 42,121 (26.6%) - these two firms owned 57.1% of all tank cars in the US. Shippers Tank Line was a distant third with 12,051 (7.6%).

The only UTLX tank cars having shipper's logos were the few Skelgas cars - otherwise plain black with yellow or gold lettering. GATC had a more "logo'd" fleet than UTLX.

The largest shipper-owned fleets were Sinclair (4,611 cars - 2.9% of the national fleet) and Warren Petroleum (4,180 or 2.6% of the national fleet). In the late 1950's, UTLX bought the Sinclair fleet.

Hope this helps, Tim Gilbert


Re: Freight cars in New England

cvsne <mjmcguirk@...>
 

Specifically for New England cars the three or four tapes (I believe they are now available in
DVD format) in the "Central Vermont Railway in Steam" includes lots of neat shots showing
the whole train -- I've garnered a lot of projects from those tapes.

Marty McGuirk

In STMFC@..., "Ron Morse" <ronstrainshop@...> wrote:


I have been following this a little but have not seen any one mention
all the great vintage videos that show cars in passing trains and
yards of the many roads that provide cars for those trains. They are a
good source for freight train consist as well as books and magazines.
Ron Morse
NYC/C&O O scale: modeling,somewhat, Southern Michigan in Springfield,MO


Linde Box Car

John Teeple
 

I am in the process of adding details to a Branchline Linde box car. I
have carved the ends to accept the access door which is fairly obvious
in the pictures I have. What is not so obvious is the arrangement of
the roof hatches and the running boards. Did the running board cover
the hatches? Were the running boards hinged in some way to allow access
to the hatches? Did the hatches open while leaving the running boards
in place? The artical in RMJ from 1993 (I think) does not address the
access to the roof hatches during the running board era. I hope someone
in this group has some informtion about this particular car.


: Empties on the NYSW?

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

There is some confusion on this topic because revenue (as billed to the customer), haulage agreements, car hire charges and demurrage are four topics that in most cases are completely separate.

[ I'm copying this to the steam era freight car and railway op-SIG because I believe that this also would be helpful to some members of those groups.]

The railroads in the route determine the price that results in revenue for the line haul move, and that revenue is divided amont those railroads. If NYSW is moving cars under a haulage contract for another railroad it knows nothing about that revenue. It just collects its fee per carload, car-mile, train-mile or whqatever is the agreement for a particular kind of move.

Car hire is paid to the owning railroad by the railroad in possession of the car. It's a rate per hour plus a rate per mile. It has nothing to do with who is getting what revenue. In the case of trackage rights this is a liability of the railroad that actually operates the train. In the case of haulage, it would depend on whether the car is fromally interchanged to the railroad doing the haulage.

The foregoing is for railroad owned cars. Shipper owned (or leased) cars move on a mileage rate. A tariff may be structured to require shipper provision of cars without a mileage allowance.

It doesn't matter whether the car is loaded or empty. The railroads that participate in the loaded movement are obligated to move the car empty in reverse of the loaded route.

Demurrage is collected from a customer by the railroad serving that customer. There is 48 hours free time after placement of a load, and I believe it is now 24 hours at origin. There is a separate demurrage tariff that specifies these charges, and it has nothing to do with car hire charges or line haul revenue. Demurrage applies to private cars except if they are on a siding designated as a home location for that shippers cars. Sometimes sidings at destination are so designated.

There are some exceptions. A rate contract between a railroad and a customer may have special provisions for demurrage or for car hire for private cars.

This is the scheme of things that can be generally assumed unless there is knowledge of a special situation.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: % private owner tank cars

Bruce Smith
 

On Mar 22, 2006, at 12:36 PM, ed_mines wrote:
Group, what % of private owner tank cars would you estimate in
the '40s? Shipper marked cars owned by the leasing companies? Some of
these leased cars alomsot look like billboards.
Ed,

Tim Gilbert provided the following information back in 2001.

On December 31, 1942 the ownership of US tank cars was:
Total Railroad-Owned 9,163
Total Privately Owned 140,971
Total "American" Owned 149,426

I'm not sure what percentage of the private cars were "plain jane" and what were more decorated.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
__
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| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
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Re: Alternate Stock Car Loads - was Another question from the new...

SUVCWORR@...
 

In a message dated 3/22/2006 1:03:55 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
tgilbert@... writes:

Mike Aufderheide wrote:

Tim,

Something else to keep in mind with stockcars is that they were often
used for things other than stock "off season" I've seen everything
from railroad ties to watermelons listed. I use this as justification
for running more of them on my layout than the stock traffic warrants.
You know...'cus they're cool!
Mike,

You can add lumber & pulpwood to your list of out of season commodities
loaded into stock cars. Indeed for many years, the MEC listed in the
ORER's a series of combination pulpwood rack/stock cars. And then you
have the shipment of live stock in boxcars particularly during the winter.

Tim Gilbert



Also, tomatoes. PRR hauled crates of tomatoes in stock cars. Instant
ventilated cars.

Rich Orr


% private owner tank cars

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:
Tank Cars - Mainly private roads. Again, percentages depend on
location. If you model the refinery, then you will want to heavily
bias your fleet to cars leased by the company running the
refinery.
Likewise, if you model an oil distributor as a delivery point,
typically it will be served by cars leased or owned by that
company.

Group, what % of private owner tank cars would you estimate in
the '40s? Shipper marked cars owned by the leasing companies? Some of
these leased cars alomsot look like billboards.

Ed


Re: Another question from the newbie...

RichBeau <RichBeau@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:

You'll know you've truly become a freight car
fanatic when someone shows you a great photo
of a locomotive, and you start looking at the
cars in the yard behind it <VBG>!!
This is exactly where I'm at! I must be in trouble. My other told me
not to hang 'round with the wrong crowd. <LOL>

I have the Robert Willoughby Jones Boston & Maine book. I keep trying
to see the logo and serial number (?) of the cars tagging along
behind. I figured that was the best place to start - model those
specific cars that I had photo graphic proof that they were here.

Thanks Richard for the critque of the Classic Freight Cars books and
mentioning that they are a bit suspect (Garth Groff also wrote of
these problems in a private email). Your list is most helpful and
gives me some good directions to look.

Bruce & Tim the overviews are great stuff! Thank you. I have been
looking at the various documents in the files area so with your most
recent 20,000-foot view and Tim Gilbert's comments (plus Tim's very
good synopsis in the files area) I at least have a much better grasp
of reality (As if I ever had one, as the opening of this psoting
atests <g>).

I've been reading Ted Culotta's Essential Freight Car series in RMC.
In fact I made a spreadsheet cross-referencing many of the currently
available F&C, Westerfield and Sunshine kits (at least ones I could
identify postively). So it's nice to have Ted add a couple of cents
worth. Thanks for the pointers Ted (great series in RMC BTW) I'll
hunt up copies of those. Expect an order from me soon for at minimum
a copy of Prototype Railroad Modeling.

Thanks again
--Rich Beaubien


Re: Alternate Stock Car Loads - was Another question from the newbie...

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Mike Aufderheide wrote:

Tim,

Something else to keep in mind with stockcars is that they were often
used for things other than stock "off season" I've seen everything
from railroad ties to watermelons listed. I use this as justification
for running more of them on my layout than the stock traffic warrants.
You know...'cus they're cool!
Mike,

You can add lumber & pulpwood to your list of out of season commodities loaded into stock cars. Indeed for many years, the MEC listed in the ORER's a series of combination pulpwood rack/stock cars. And then you have the shipment of live stock in boxcars particularly during the winter.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Another question from the newbie...

armprem
 

I have observed stock cars carrying ties,cedar posts and hay.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Aufderheide" <mononinmonon@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 12:20 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Another question from the newbie...


Tim,

Something else to keep in mind with stockcars is that they were often
used for things other than stock "off season" I've seen everything
from railroad ties to watermelons listed. I use this as justification
for running more of them on my layout than the stock traffic warrants.
You know...'cus they're cool!

Regards,

Mike Aufderheide


Stock Cars - Whatever New England live stock was slaughtered was
brought
to the slaughter houses by truck. Therefore, any stock cars seen in New
England were carrying livestock from outside New England in cars owned
primarily by roads upon which the loads were originated.






Yahoo! Groups Links








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Re: Another question from the newbie...

Michael Aufderheide
 

Tim,

Something else to keep in mind with stockcars is that they were often
used for things other than stock "off season" I've seen everything
from railroad ties to watermelons listed. I use this as justification
for running more of them on my layout than the stock traffic warrants.
You know...'cus they're cool!

Regards,

Mike Aufderheide


Stock Cars - Whatever New England live stock was slaughtered was
brought
to the slaughter houses by truck. Therefore, any stock cars seen in New
England were carrying livestock from outside New England in cars owned
primarily by roads upon which the loads were originated.

144441 - 144460 of 197060