Date   

H.H. Copeland Reports

Dana and Larry Kline <klinelarrydanajon@...>
 

<Dave Nelson wrote:
Larry, where did you find the H.H. Copeland reports? What year do they
cover?>

The Guide to RR Historical Resources by Taber lists the Copeland Reports (on
interchange and traffic density) holdings at the Baker Library at the
Harvard Business School, The Transportation Library at Northwestern Univ.,
and the St. Louis Mercantile Library. I have used the holdings at Harvard
and Northwestern. The Northwestern is much more laid back. They permit
copying and don't require permission to publish research results. Harvard
will supply copied, at a higher cost and does require permission to publish
research results.

The holdings at Northwestern cover WM for most years from 1926 to 1956.
However, this unusual. For many railroads, there is data for only one or a
few years. I didn't make a list of the holdings at Northwestern. The
holdings at Harvard are: (RR no of yrs.) Alton 3, AA 2, ATSF 6, ACL 8, B&O
6, BAR 3, B&A 6, B&M 21, CP 2, CGa 2, CRRNJ 5, CV 1, C&O 6, C&EI 14, C&NW 7,
CB&Q 14, CGW 5, CI&L 13, MILW 16, RI 26, CCStL 9, C&S 11, D&H 14, DL&W 11,
DRGW 30, ERIE 17, FEC 13, GN 5, GTW 1, Gulf Coast 11, GM&O 6, IC 12, IGN 11,
KCS 10, LV 1, L&A 1, L&N 4, MEC 21, MC 8, M&StL 2, SOO 39, MKT 16, MP 15,
M&O 2, Monon 1, NC&StL 1, NYC 9, NYC&StL 5, NH 2, NYO&W 2, NS 1, NP 6, PRR
4, P&LE 4, RDG 4, Frisco 9, StLSW 3, Seaboard 13, SP 5, SR 13, T&P 9, UP 10,
VGN 4, WAB 21, WM 32, Panama Canal 1.

Larry Kline


Re: WM hopper trucks

Dana and Larry Kline <klinelarrydanajon@...>
 

<John Nehrich wrote:
One of our members is assembling a bunch of the Stewart channel side
hoppers, and wanted to know what trucks to use. I found one picture where I
think the car had Andrews, but it isn't clear, and one photo does not a
roster make. Any information? - John>

All of the 1947 and later photos I have of WM channel side hoppers show cast
steel (Bettendorf) trucks of various types. Some photos show two different
truck types on one car. Some of the 1916-17 Pullman hoppers that were
converted to channel side cars in 1927-32 were built with Bettendorf
T-section trucks and kept them after rebuilding. The latest photo I have of
a car with Bettendorf T-section trucks is dated 1942. I also have one 1940
photo of a car with one cast steel truck and one Bettendorf T-section truck.

Larry Kline


Re: Ancient Tank Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

List,

I have questions to ask about a certain MDC
tank car kit, though I've a good idea what the
answer will be.

I just received several M.D. McCarter prints of
UTLX tank cars that appear to have been built in
the 'teens. The shots were taken in Pensacola, FL
about 1945. Short, with tanks riding high on very
sturdy underframes, with the brake wheel mounted
facing to the side at one corner. There are ladders
going up the sideframe, about four rungs each.

1) Is this what you'd call a "Van Dyke" design?
No, it's the UTLX class X design which followed the VanDyke cars (class V)
after the Master Car Builders' Assn. ruled that tank cars had to have
center sills, rather than transmitting pulling and buffing forces through
the tank itself. The tanks on the class X cars were essentially the same
as on the Van Dykes (and BTW both class X and class V cars wre built in 6K,
8K, and 10K versions) but they had substantial center sills instead of the
bolsters and draft gear boxes being riveted directly to the tank via an
unusually heavy bottom sheet.

2) Does the MDC "Old Timer" tank car have potential
for modeling these cars, or is it the usual MDC
fantasy, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever?
The MDC tank isn't bad as a representation of the UTL 6K gal. tanks. The
problem is the underframe, which is a grossly oversize atrocity.

3) Failing that, has this type of car ever been
produced in brass, and by who?
No, only the VanDyke tanks have been done in brass (and mostly because the
narrow gauge guys wanted them, as some were converted to NG in the 1930s).
The same is true of PSC's very nice plastic kit for the VanDyke cars,
originally offered only in NG but now available as a standard gauge model
as well. There's been talk of making patterns for resin underframes to go
under the PSC or MDC tanks, but so far nothing has come of it. There's
also been talk of doing the class X cars in brass, but talk, as we know, is
cheap. There would certainly be a good market for such models, as the cars
went everywhere in the US and Canada and lasted, in some cases, through the
1960s (I have a photo of one coupled to a high-cube auto parts car!).

Shawn Beckert



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Ancient Tank Cars

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Shawn - The Van Dyke cars had no underframe.
The biggest problem with the MDC kit is that in order to get in enough
weight in the underframe, they made it about twice as tall, so the tank sits
way too high. The metal is hard to work with, so replacing the underframe
is about the only way to go.
There is also the Precision Scale model of a Van Dyke, which has
slightly different dimensions, and I would think could be mounted on a new
underframe. - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Beckert, Shawn" <shawn.beckert@disney.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 1:47 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Ancient Tank Cars


List,

I have questions to ask about a certain MDC
tank car kit, though I've a good idea what the
answer will be.

I just received several M.D. McCarter prints of
UTLX tank cars that appear to have been built in
the 'teens. The shots were taken in Pensacola, FL
about 1945. Short, with tanks riding high on very
sturdy underframes, with the brake wheel mounted
facing to the side at one corner. There are ladders
going up the sideframe, about four rungs each.

1) Is this what you'd call a "Van Dyke" design?

2) Does the MDC "Old Timer" tank car have potential
for modeling these cars, or is it the usual MDC
fantasy, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever?

3) Failing that, has this type of car ever been
produced in brass, and by who?

Shawn Beckert



To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Ancient Tank Cars

Shawn Beckert
 

List,

I have questions to ask about a certain MDC
tank car kit, though I've a good idea what the
answer will be.

I just received several M.D. McCarter prints of
UTLX tank cars that appear to have been built in
the 'teens. The shots were taken in Pensacola, FL
about 1945. Short, with tanks riding high on very
sturdy underframes, with the brake wheel mounted
facing to the side at one corner. There are ladders
going up the sideframe, about four rungs each.

1) Is this what you'd call a "Van Dyke" design?

2) Does the MDC "Old Timer" tank car have potential
for modeling these cars, or is it the usual MDC
fantasy, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever?

3) Failing that, has this type of car ever been
produced in brass, and by who?

Shawn Beckert


Re: WM hopper trucks

Richard Hendrickson
 

One of our members is assembling a bunch of the Stewart channel side
hoppers, and wanted to know what trucks to use. I found one picture where I
think the car had Andrews, but it isn't clear, and one photo does not a
roster make. Any information? - John
I have only one photo of a WM channel side car and it dates from ca. 1961,
after Andrews trucks were banned in interchange, so it may have had Andrews
trucks earlier in life. The trucks in the photo are AAR self-aligning
spring-plankless with Barber lateral motion bolsters. Several mfrs. make
representations of AAR self-aligning spring-plankless trucks in HO scal,
the best probably being InterMountain's, but none of them have Barber later
motion devices - though that's a rather subtle detail in 1:87 scale. With
regard to the trucks on these cars earlier in their history, you might try
Larry Kline, who models WM (though in O scale):
<klinelarrydanajon@worldnet.att.net>

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Ratios of Home Vs Foreign

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Yeah, that's my work alright.

The data here that I think is an eye opener is the sum of cells J12 and J21
(totals about 25%), which is the percentage of ALL away from home boxcars
that are marked either NYC or PRR. To back up that claim, I just ran some
queries against the SRR conductors Train books I recorded -- mainline
running east out of Asheville, NC.: I have 1117 non-home road boxcars listed
with 212 of them having PRR or NYC marks -- about 20% of the foreign road
boxcars.

As for your RA data Jeff, I'm not quite sure of the point your trying to
make, but if it's in context of the spreadsheet, the RA data confirms what
is the spreadsheet after one facters in open top cars.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Aley - GCD PE [mailto:jaley@pcocd2.intel.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 2:17 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Ratios of Home Vs Foreign


I just uploaded "Home vs Foreign.xls", which is an Excel spreadsheet that
I received (IIRC) from Dave Nelson.

It's in the files area at www.yahoogroups.com.

BTW, the data I have from Railway Age circa 1950 shows ~40% of the cars on
UP property were UP.

Regards,

-Jeff


On Jan 31, 12:10am, Mike Brock wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Ratios of Home Vs Foreign
Regarding per centages of home cars on home rails, I believe that Dave
Nelson provided us with some '44 [?] data about this some time ago. I
know I
have it somewhere. Anyhow, I believe that for UP, for example, only
about
30% of the frt cars on UP property at one time were UP cars...about like
Richard reports for ATSF. I believe that the major coal roads like N&W
and
C&O were in the 60% range.

Mike Brock
--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
STMFC-unsubscribe@egroups.com



Society of Freight Car Historians

ibs4421@...
 

Steam Listers,
I have in my possession a copy of "Freight Car Journal No. 63: Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis Railway". It's a great reference work, a decent substitute for the lack of the horizontal format books we've discussed earlier. The copyright is listed as "1994 Society of Freight Car Historians, ISSN 0742-9355". Can anyone tell me where I can get other volumes like this for other roads?

Warren Dickinson
Ride The Battlefield Route!
Ride The Dixie Line!
NC&StL Rwy.


Re: Ratios of Home Vs Foreign

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

I just uploaded "Home vs Foreign.xls", which is an Excel spreadsheet that
I received (IIRC) from Dave Nelson.

It's in the files area at www.yahoogroups.com.

BTW, the data I have from Railway Age circa 1950 shows ~40% of the cars on
UP property were UP.

Regards,

-Jeff


On Jan 31, 12:10am, Mike Brock wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Ratios of Home Vs Foreign
Regarding per centages of home cars on home rails, I believe that Dave
Nelson provided us with some '44 [?] data about this some time ago. I
know I
have it somewhere. Anyhow, I believe that for UP, for example, only
about
30% of the frt cars on UP property at one time were UP cars...about like
Richard reports for ATSF. I believe that the major coal roads like N&W
and
C&O were in the 60% range.

Mike Brock
--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: WM hopper trucks

byronrose@...
 

On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:19:59 -0500 "John Nehrich" <nehrij@rpi.edu>
writes:
One of our members is assembling a bunch of the Stewart channel side
hoppers, and wanted to know what trucks to use. I found one picture
where I
think the car had Andrews, but it isn't clear, and one photo does
not a
roster make. Any information? - John
John,

One thing to keep in mind is that the Stewart kit is a poor
representation of only the cars that WM rebuilt in 1952. The hoppers,
end sills, ladders and other detail needs correcting. They really cannot
pass for their older channel sides, unless one is modeling way, way off
scale.

FWIW, the couple of those cars still in service in Harrisburg are rolling
on an AAR type cast sideframe truck, formerly known in the hobby as
Bettendorf (ph?), a little town in Iowa.

BSRose
________________________________________________________________
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Re: freight car paint schemes

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

I've bitten the bullet and STARTED writing up a synopsis of freight car
paint schemes at:

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Freight-Car-Paint-Sch
emes.html

I have a LOT to go, but if you have a favorite road and people
(specifically manufacturers) keep getting it wrong, like a scheme only used
on a particular class of cars, let me know. If you send it to me in the
following format:

<li> 19xx - Yadda, yadda, yahoo.<P>

it will get added sooner.

But even more important than what I've left out is what I got wrong. So nit
pick away. - John


Re: Ratios of Home Road vs. Foreign Roads

thompson@...
 

Warren Dickinson asks:
I am curious as to the list's opinions about what ratios y'all
consider proper. In my mind the home road would be represented in the
greatest numbers, followed by connecting/interchanged roads, then roads in
the geographic area, followed by everything else. Am I off-base with
this?
Depends on the railroad, the era, and the particular part of the
railroad, Warren.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: WM hopper trucks

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

One of our members is assembling a bunch of the Stewart channel side
hoppers, and wanted to know what trucks to use. I found one picture where I
think the car had Andrews, but it isn't clear, and one photo does not a
roster make. Any information? - John


Re: Private owner tank cars

Jack Priller <Gndlfstram@...>
 

--- In STMFC@y..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...> wrote:

Yes, but just remember, the prototype police are out their with
their
badges and ticket books, and they know where you live.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
Ah, did I happen to mention that I am also a member of the
midearthrails group? I keep our mascot, Smaug II, in my back yard.

Jack Priller
Honorable Association of Good Guys and Irreverent Souls
"To comfort the afflicted, and to afflict the comfortable."


Re: Ratios of Home Vs Foreign

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 12:10 AM 1/31/01 -0500, you wrote:
Regarding per centages of home cars on home rails, I believe that Dave
Nelson provided us with some '44 [?] data about this some time ago. I know I
have it somewhere. Anyhow, I believe that for UP, for example, only about
30% of the frt cars on UP property at one time were UP cars...about like
Richard reports for ATSF. I believe that the major coal roads like N&W and
C&O were in the 60% range.

Mike Brock
I have read that AT&SF was closer to 60%, while the UP and SP reported
30% but that this ignored PFE cars!* I think 30% is a minimum for a model
of most any railroad, just to plant the idea in the viewer's mind that
they are definitely looking at the Santa Fe (or UP, or SP) and not some
fictitious line...

( * while the AT&SF total included SFRD cars )


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Ratios of Home Vs Foreign

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Regarding per centages of home cars on home rails, I believe that Dave
Nelson provided us with some '44 [?] data about this some time ago. I know I
have it somewhere. Anyhow, I believe that for UP, for example, only about
30% of the frt cars on UP property at one time were UP cars...about like
Richard reports for ATSF. I believe that the major coal roads like N&W and
C&O were in the 60% range.

Mike Brock


Test

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

This is a test only.


Re: Ratios of Home Road vs. Foreign Roads

Richard Hendrickson
 

Warren Dickinson wrote:

Our prior discussion about foreign road hoppers got me to thinking again
about the subject of proper ratios of home vs. foreign road cars in
recreating history via a model railroad....I am curious as to the list's
opinions about what ratios y'all consider proper. In my mind the home
road would be represented in the greatest numbers, followed by
connecting/interchanged roads, then roads in the geographic area, followed
by everything else.
Certainly a valid generalization, Warren, but there are so many exceptions
that you can't count on it applying in specific cases unless you have
photographic or other documentation. I'll cite again my favorite example
of the kind of influence on traffic that requires specific knowledge of the
situation. Considerable freight traffic came down from the Pacific
Northwest on the Great Northern line through Oregon to Bieber, CA, where it
was handed off to the Western Pacific "high line" from Bieber to Keddie.
The WP then routed cars that were bound for Southern Calif. and the
southwest to Stockton, where they were handed off to the Santa Fe, since
the unpalatable alternative was to route them via the Southern Pacific,
WP's direct competitor. As a result, photographic evidence reveals a much
larger number of Great Northern (and, to a lesser extent, Northern Pacific
and Milwaukee Road) cars in Santa Fe trains between Stockton and Barstow
(and between Barstow and the Los Angeles and San Diego areas) than one
would normally expect.

Proportions of home road to foreign cars also depend to a large extent on
the nature of the traffic and whether it originated on-line or off-line.
SP and UP reefer blocks consisted almost entirely of PFE cars; N&W coal
drags were composed almost entirely of N&W hoppers. By contrast, in the
typical Santa Fe manifest freight inbound to Southern California only 1 in
3 or 1 in 4 cars were Santa Fe cars, with the rest of the train made up of
cars from many different (mostly midwestern and eastern) railroads that
funneled onto the Santa Fe via Chicago, Kansas City, and other interchange
points. It's worth noting also that some types of cars (e.g. coal hoppers)
tended to be in more or less dedicated service while others (e.g. general
service box and flat cars) wandered far and wide and might be off home
rails for extended periods.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


UP H-70-1

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor writes:


Yikes! If you read the small lettering, the hoppers are H-70-1's and the
caboose is a CA-3/CA-4. Holy Cow!! I've wanted these hoppers for years
and now they're coming from Europe, of all places!
Well, let's wait until we see them before we get overly excited. Yes, the
likelihood of seeing a model of an H-70-1 is about the same as seeing a
plastic scale model of UP Big Boy 4019 in elephant ears [ UP tried elephant
ears on 4019 for two weeks before succumbing to outraged citizens driving
along UP tracks in the Wasatch who complained bitterly about 4019's ugliness
with the "ears" ]. BTW, why would an SP fan want a UP H-70-1? Is someone
going to claim that they went into California and perhaps on SP or ATSF
tracks? That idea needs to be squashed immediately. Everyone knows that
hopper cars never went off home rails.

Mike Hopper Brock.....now tell us...why do you really want an H-70-1? Are
you perhaps a closet UP modeler?


Ratios of Home Road vs. Foreign Roads

ibs4421@...
 

Steam Listers,
Our prior discussion about foreign road hoppers got me to thinking again about the subject of proper ratios of home vs. foreign road cars in recreating history via a model railroad. I to am always pleased whenever I can get hold of a yard shot, etc. All those railfan photos showing quartering shots of the head ends get me too. I keep turning the book/photo sideways,but I never get a better angle on the train to get a good look at some reporting marks.
I am curious as to the list's opinions about what ratios y'all consider proper. In my mind the home road would be represented in the greatest numbers, followed by connecting/interchanged roads, then roads in the geographic area, followed by everything else. Am I off-base with this?

Warren Dickinson

188101 - 188120 of 188631