There is also the Precision Scale model of a Van Dyke, which has
slightly different dimensions, and I would think could be mounted on
a new underframe. - John

Shawn, the Precision Scale model is accurate for prototypes that
lasted into the 1960's. Richard Hendrickson wrote an article on
modeling them, including modifications to Bowser (?) caboose trucks
that have the correct wheel base. Precision Scale makes, I think,
two different models -- regular and "deluxe". The more expensive
one is better/sturdier because it has metal parts where needed.
There's a 1969 photo of UTLX #57801, a Van Dyke tank car, in the
Classic Freight Cars Volume 2. It appears to be riding on normal
ASF A-3 Ride Control trucks.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts

At 10:07 PM 2/1/01 -0600, you wrote:

Just doing some tests to see if my Youngstown containers would fit in the
Intermountain and Lifelike kits - I plan to issue a 10 container load for
Mop. Turns out the Lifelike car is about 6" narrower than prototype and
won't fit the containers. Intermountain is about 2" oversize and will (and
would have if the correct width). - Al Westerfield

Al... I wonder if your load will fit Sunshine's Greenville car
(same prototype as the Proto2000). It came with thin-wall sides.
I can test fit it for you, if you're interested. ;o)

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts

Just doing some tests to see if my Youngstown containers would fit in the
Intermountain and Lifelike kits - I plan to issue a 10 container load for
Mop. Turns out the Lifelike car is about 6" narrower than prototype and
won't fit the containers. Intermountain is about 2" oversize and will (and
would have if the correct width). - Al Westerfield
Westerfield

From: "Dave & Libby Nelson" <muskoka@ix.netcom.com>

Larry, where did you find the H.H. Copeland reports? What year do the
cover?

Dave and others,

I have a copy of Ron Glas's 1990 compilation of available Copeland resources
located at NWU. I'd be happy to quote from it, but it would better to find Ron
and get permission for me to distibute it in its entirety.

Earl Tuson

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Tim,
Look again, 57801 is not a Van Dyke car.
I don't think that they lasted past 1953.
There are only five standard gauge cars listed in the 7-53 ORER.
Bill Kelly

Tim wrote:

snippage<
There's a 1969 photo of UTLX #57801, a Van Dyke tank car, in the
Classic Freight Cars Volume 2.

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M.D. McCarter has a couple of photos of B&O milk cars from the series
824-850, which were standard ice bunker reefers. He took the photos in '48,
but the latest equipment register I have for passenger cars is '43. Does
anyone know how late they survived? - John

Richard and Gang,

Ok, so I looked up Precision Scale's Van Dyke tank at
the Walthers website. It's in stock for $18 or so.
Odd looking little monster. How long did these last
in interchange, the 1940's?

Shawn Beckert

I agree with Richard Hendrickson that photographic or other documentation is
the best approach to determining the ratio of home road and foreign road
cars. The photos and videos available to me show that boxcars are, by far,
the most common car type in WM merchandise trains, and that foreign road
cars are much more common than home road cars.

It is interesting to compare the data from photos and videos with Copeland
Report data. On the Western Maryland all merchandise traffic to and from the
west was interchanged at Connellsville, PA. The WM 1952 Copeland Report
gives the following numbers of cars interchanged at Connellsville.

Eastbound
P&LE 29,228
P&WV 28,783
B&O 3,310
PRR 2,577
Westbound
P&LE 34,583
P&WV 44,287
B&O 1,039
PRR 293
Total Eastbound+Westbound 144,100

The WM had 2,284 boxcars as of January 1953. Assuming a typical value of
one car turn per month, the total number of WM boxcar shipments in 1952 was
about 27,000. Only a fraction of these shipments would have been
interchanged at Connellsville. Thus, home road cars can account for only a
small fraction of the cars interchanged at Connellsville and one would
expect that most boxcars in WM merchandise trains would be foreign road
cars, as suggested by photos and videos.

Larry Kline

<Dave Nelson wrote:
Larry, where did you find the H.H. Copeland reports? What year do they
cover?>

The Guide to RR Historical Resources by Taber lists the Copeland Reports (on
interchange and traffic density) holdings at the Baker Library at the
Harvard Business School, The Transportation Library at Northwestern Univ.,
and the St. Louis Mercantile Library. I have used the holdings at Harvard
and Northwestern. The Northwestern is much more laid back. They permit
copying and don't require permission to publish research results. Harvard
will supply copied, at a higher cost and does require permission to publish
research results.

The holdings at Northwestern cover WM for most years from 1926 to 1956.
However, this unusual. For many railroads, there is data for only one or a
few years. I didn't make a list of the holdings at Northwestern. The
holdings at Harvard are: (RR no of yrs.) Alton 3, AA 2, ATSF 6, ACL 8, B&O
6, BAR 3, B&A 6, B&M 21, CP 2, CGa 2, CRRNJ 5, CV 1, C&O 6, C&EI 14, C&NW 7,
CB&Q 14, CGW 5, CI&L 13, MILW 16, RI 26, CCStL 9, C&S 11, D&H 14, DL&W 11,
DRGW 30, ERIE 17, FEC 13, GN 5, GTW 1, Gulf Coast 11, GM&O 6, IC 12, IGN 11,
KCS 10, LV 1, L&A 1, L&N 4, MEC 21, MC 8, M&StL 2, SOO 39, MKT 16, MP 15,
M&O 2, Monon 1, NC&StL 1, NYC 9, NYC&StL 5, NH 2, NYO&W 2, NS 1, NP 6, PRR
4, P&LE 4, RDG 4, Frisco 9, StLSW 3, Seaboard 13, SP 5, SR 13, T&P 9, UP 10,
VGN 4, WAB 21, WM 32, Panama Canal 1.

Larry Kline

<John Nehrich wrote:
One of our members is assembling a bunch of the Stewart channel side
hoppers, and wanted to know what trucks to use. I found one picture where I
think the car had Andrews, but it isn't clear, and one photo does not a
roster make. Any information? - John>

All of the 1947 and later photos I have of WM channel side hoppers show cast
steel (Bettendorf) trucks of various types. Some photos show two different
truck types on one car. Some of the 1916-17 Pullman hoppers that were
converted to channel side cars in 1927-32 were built with Bettendorf
T-section trucks and kept them after rebuilding. The latest photo I have of
a car with Bettendorf T-section trucks is dated 1942. I also have one 1940
photo of a car with one cast steel truck and one Bettendorf T-section truck.

Larry Kline

List,

I have questions to ask about a certain MDC
tank car kit, though I've a good idea what the
answer will be.

I just received several M.D. McCarter prints of
UTLX tank cars that appear to have been built in
the 'teens. The shots were taken in Pensacola, FL
about 1945. Short, with tanks riding high on very
sturdy underframes, with the brake wheel mounted
facing to the side at one corner. There are ladders
going up the sideframe, about four rungs each.

1) Is this what you'd call a "Van Dyke" design?

No, it's the UTLX class X design which followed the VanDyke cars (class V)
after the Master Car Builders' Assn. ruled that tank cars had to have
center sills, rather than transmitting pulling and buffing forces through
the tank itself. The tanks on the class X cars were essentially the same
as on the Van Dykes (and BTW both class X and class V cars wre built in 6K,
8K, and 10K versions) but they had substantial center sills instead of the
bolsters and draft gear boxes being riveted directly to the tank via an
unusually heavy bottom sheet.

2) Does the MDC "Old Timer" tank car have potential
for modeling these cars, or is it the usual MDC
fantasy, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever?

The MDC tank isn't bad as a representation of the UTL 6K gal. tanks. The
problem is the underframe, which is a grossly oversize atrocity.

3) Failing that, has this type of car ever been
produced in brass, and by who?

No, only the VanDyke tanks have been done in brass (and mostly because the
narrow gauge guys wanted them, as some were converted to NG in the 1930s).
The same is true of PSC's very nice plastic kit for the VanDyke cars,
originally offered only in NG but now available as a standard gauge model
as well. There's been talk of making patterns for resin underframes to go
under the PSC or MDC tanks, but so far nothing has come of it. There's
also been talk of doing the class X cars in brass, but talk, as we know, is
cheap. There would certainly be a good market for such models, as the cars
went everywhere in the US and Canada and lasted, in some cases, through the
1960s (I have a photo of one coupled to a high-cube auto parts car!).

Shawn Beckert



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Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Shawn - The Van Dyke cars had no underframe.
The biggest problem with the MDC kit is that in order to get in enough
weight in the underframe, they made it about twice as tall, so the tank sits
way too high. The metal is hard to work with, so replacing the underframe
is about the only way to go.
There is also the Precision Scale model of a Van Dyke, which has
slightly different dimensions, and I would think could be mounted on a new
underframe. - John

List,

I have questions to ask about a certain MDC
tank car kit, though I've a good idea what the
answer will be.

I just received several M.D. McCarter prints of
UTLX tank cars that appear to have been built in
the 'teens. The shots were taken in Pensacola, FL
about 1945. Short, with tanks riding high on very
sturdy underframes, with the brake wheel mounted
facing to the side at one corner. There are ladders
going up the sideframe, about four rungs each.

1) Is this what you'd call a "Van Dyke" design?

2) Does the MDC "Old Timer" tank car have potential
for modeling these cars, or is it the usual MDC
fantasy, with no redeeming qualities whatsoever?

3) Failing that, has this type of car ever been
produced in brass, and by who?

Shawn Beckert

One of our members is assembling a bunch of the Stewart channel side
hoppers, and wanted to know what trucks to use. I found one picture where I
think the car had Andrews, but it isn't clear, and one photo does not a
roster make. Any information? - John

I have only one photo of a WM channel side car and it dates from ca. 1961,
after Andrews trucks were banned in interchange, so it may have had Andrews
trucks earlier in life. The trucks in the photo are AAR self-aligning
spring-plankless with Barber lateral motion bolsters. Several mfrs. make
representations of AAR self-aligning spring-plankless trucks in HO scal,
the best probably being InterMountain's, but none of them have Barber later
motion devices - though that's a rather subtle detail in 1:87 scale. With
regard to the trucks on these cars earlier in their history, you might try
Larry Kline, who models WM (though in O scale):
<klinelarrydanajon@worldnet.att.net>

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520

Yeah, that's my work alright.

The data here that I think is an eye opener is the sum of cells J12 and J21
(totals about 25%), which is the percentage of ALL away from home boxcars
that are marked either NYC or PRR. To back up that claim, I just ran some
queries against the SRR conductors Train books I recorded -- mainline
running east out of Asheville, NC.: I have 1117 non-home road boxcars listed
with 212 of them having PRR or NYC marks -- about 20% of the foreign road
boxcars.

As for your RA data Jeff, I'm not quite sure of the point your trying to
make, but if it's in context of the spreadsheet, the RA data confirms what
is the spreadsheet after one facters in open top cars.

Steam Listers,
I have in my possession a copy of "Freight Car Journal No. 63: Nashville, Chattanooga & St. Louis Railway". It's a great reference work, a decent substitute for the lack of the horizontal format books we've discussed earlier. The copyright is listed as "1994 Society of Freight Car Historians, ISSN 0742-9355". Can anyone tell me where I can get other volumes like this for other roads?

Warren Dickinson
Ride The Battlefield Route!
Ride The Dixie Line!
NC&StL Rwy.

I just uploaded "Home vs Foreign.xls", which is an Excel spreadsheet that
I received (IIRC) from Dave Nelson.

It's in the files area at www.yahoogroups.com.

BTW, the data I have from Railway Age circa 1950 shows ~40% of the cars on
UP property were UP.

Regards,

-Jeff


On Jan 31, 12:10am, Mike Brock wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Ratios of Home Vs Foreign
Regarding per centages of home cars on home rails, I believe that Dave
Nelson provided us with some '44 [?] data about this some time ago. I

know I

have it somewhere. Anyhow, I believe that for UP, for example, only

about

30% of the frt cars on UP property at one time were UP cars...about like
Richard reports for ATSF. I believe that the major coal roads like N&W

and

C&O were in the 60% range.

Mike Brock

--
Jeff Aley, Development Engineer jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
Graphics Components Division
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

On Wed, 31 Jan 2001 11:19:59 -0500 "John Nehrich" <nehrij@rpi.edu>
writes:

One of our members is assembling a bunch of the Stewart channel side
hoppers, and wanted to know what trucks to use. I found one picture
where I
think the car had Andrews, but it isn't clear, and one photo does
not a
roster make. Any information? - John

John,

One thing to keep in mind is that the Stewart kit is a poor
representation of only the cars that WM rebuilt in 1952. The hoppers,
end sills, ladders and other detail needs correcting. They really cannot
pass for their older channel sides, unless one is modeling way, way off
scale.

FWIW, the couple of those cars still in service in Harrisburg are rolling
on an AAR type cast sideframe truck, formerly known in the hobby as
Bettendorf (ph?), a little town in Iowa.

BSRose
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I've bitten the bullet and STARTED writing up a synopsis of freight car
paint schemes at:

http://www.union.rpi.edu/railroad/images/rolling-stock/Freight-Car-Paint-Sch
emes.html

I have a LOT to go, but if you have a favorite road and people
(specifically manufacturers) keep getting it wrong, like a scheme only used
on a particular class of cars, let me know. If you send it to me in the
following format:

<li> 19xx - Yadda, yadda, yahoo.<P>

it will get added sooner.

But even more important than what I've left out is what I got wrong. So nit
pick away. - John

Warren Dickinson asks:

I am curious as to the list's opinions about what ratios y'all
consider proper. In my mind the home road would be represented in the
greatest numbers, followed by connecting/interchanged roads, then roads in
the geographic area, followed by everything else. Am I off-base with
this?

Depends on the railroad, the era, and the particular part of the
railroad, Warren.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history