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Re: Accuracy of paint schemes...

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Charlie Vlk, probably moving quickly to dodge incoming, says:

I've found that the Gurus tend not to tell us how much they know what's
right or wrong but
help us learn by SHOWING us.... through articles, books, digging up and
sharing obscure photos, etc...
True, they tend to accumulate credibility by doing so, but certifying a
model as being right or
wrong doesn't mean much to me unless I can see what the deviations are and
make my own
judgements if this is a horrible thing or not.
While I agree with the notion of making up one's own mind as to the acceptability of a model, I also appreciate knowing that, in the opinion of a guru, a car is "bogus". I would then like to know just "how" bogus it is.


If the Gurus (or anybody) are thinking of starting a rating/evaluation
service it would be interesting but I don't
think it would advance the state of the art more than doing more of what
they already are doing....
Except, perhaps, the info would be easier to access. Remember John Nehrich's book on model frt cars which showed which models were "accurate" for which RRs?

Mike Brock


Re: New Kadee car

Tim O'Connor
 

Schuyler wrote

eight variations is economical for a PS1, but not for an ARA 1932?
How so?

Because each of the 8 variations of the PS-1 has 10 to 50 possible
paint schemes, and many different owners. Can you say that about the
1932 ARA box? From Ted's tally it looks like there were 20 owners of
the 1932 box cars, covering different roofs (6!), ends (6!), interior
heights (3), underframes (Duryea or conventional), and doors.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Code 88 wheels?

Jim Betz
 

I'll chime in with a different approach to this topic ...

Background ... one of the things that differentiates two
wheelsets is the shape of the curve where the flange meets
the tread. Pick up two wheelsets and look at them and you
will notice differences in this area right away. This is
especially noticeable if you compare some cheapo wheelset
with an Intermountain or Reboxx wheelset.
Similarly ... the angle of the tread from true horizontal
is also different from one kind of wheelset to another.

Perhaps a more useful method of 'measuring' a wheel would be to
develop a method for consistently photographing it edge-on and
showing the profile for comparison?
I'm thinking that if I had an accurate profile of the shape and
size of two wheels either alongside each other or one on top of
the other that I could see the differences - without knowing
the measurements. If I had the images I could even 'cut' one
and carry it up over the other one and see the two shapes very
precisely.

Such a method would have to be able to repeatedly reproduce the
same profile for the same wheel - and the relative profile shape
and size of wheels from different manufacturers/models. But I'm
guessing that the combination of a jigged camera set up that
precisely controlled the distance of the camera from the axle
and some controls of the way the image is taken (camera zoom
settings, etc.) - combined with some photoshop filters that repeated
the image changes - would produce jpg profiles that could be relied
upon and used for comparison. Luckily, it seems that the overall
width of two wheels claiming to be Code 88 is close enough to
each other that one ought to be able to determine easily whether
or not two photographically developed profiles are the same or
different.
I know that such a method would be subject to the possible
variations introduced during manufacturing ... but that is
both a good thing and a bad thing. Good because it is what
actually gets produced that counts rather than what the designer
of the wheel thought they would be. Bad because it is possible
that you might use a wheel that is significantly different from
the norm for that manufacturer and model. If you ran several
'identical' wheels from the same manufacturer thru the process
you ought to be able to know if they are coming out the same
or not.

Finally - I'd also like some kind of operational data tossed into
the mix as well - stuff like which wheels have problems with which
existing turnouts, etc. From actual experience.
- Jim in San Jose


Re: Code 88 wheels?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Dennis Storzek notes:


So... Mike wants to quibble over .002" on the depth of the flange and
.005" on its width, but can't measure closer than +/- .0078????
Actually I can measure quite closely...having extremely good close up eyesight. What I cannot do is tell exactly where "W" extends to on the flange...thus, making my measurements of "W" and "T" unreliable...with an error possibility of "about" .00778. Could the error be greater...to say...0.009? Yep.

As to the depth of the flange, I can put my micrometer on the wheel's diameter including the flange fairly reliably. When the readings were the same, I was lead to suspect that the manufacturing process was merely to reduce the tread size on a Code 110 wheel...which, apparently, is what happened...at least in two cases.

Mike Brock


Re: Timonium this weekend

jerryglow2
 

I saw a relatively late notice that Al and Patricia planned to be
there but nothing of Martin.

Jerry Glow

--- In STMFC@..., <mjmcguirk@...> wrote:

Hello all,

Does anyone know if Al and Patricia Westerfield and/or Martin
Lofton will be at the Timonium show this weekend?

I have some family obligations a birthday and, with the Cherry
festival and 70 degree weather predicted for the weekend I'm going
to be dealing with plants one way or another (either in the yard, or
in DC) so I don't want to head up that way if either one of them is
not there.

And, I'll be sure to look at freight car pics -- searching for the
elusive CV GS gons and those N&W hoppers on Sherman Hill at Bob L's
(mandatory freight car content).

Thanks,

Marty McGuirk



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Special Run Mentality

asychis@...
 

In a message dated 3/27/2006 5:32:50 PM Central Standard Time,
STMFC@... writes:
And, when someone has a run of cars produced, and they
don't sell well (because the "word on the street" says they're
inaccurate -- the manufacturer has to try and move that product. Just
one of the many reasons the "special run" mentality is ultimately
doomed to fail.
Marty,

Can you expound on this. I am not quite clear. What is the "special run
mentality?" Why is it doomed to fail?

Jerry Michels


Timonium this weekend

mjmcguirk@...
 

Hello all,

Does anyone know if Al and Patricia Westerfield and/or Martin Lofton will be at the Timonium show this weekend?

I have some family obligations a birthday and, with the Cherry festival and 70 degree weather predicted for the weekend I'm going to be dealing with plants one way or another (either in the yard, or in DC) so I don't want to head up that way if either one of them is not there.

And, I'll be sure to look at freight car pics -- searching for the elusive CV GS gons and those N&W hoppers on Sherman Hill at Bob L's (mandatory freight car content).

Thanks,

Marty McGuirk


Accuracy of Paint Schemes

asychis@...
 

In a message dated 3/27/2006 5:32:50 PM Central Standard Time,
STMFC@... writes:
Our best course of action here is to vigorously support those like
Kadee, Branchline, and Proto 2000 who make a strong and ongoing effort
to do things right and to spread the word as widely as well among
other, perhaps less well informed, model railroaders about what's
accurate and what isn't.


Richard,

I agree completely, we need to support these guys. I disagree that all who
buy inaccurate schemes are bozos. First, it is not always a fanciful or
colorful scheme that is incorrect, it could be a very drab BCR car with white
lettering, but it could be a person's favorite railroad. Sure, a person can inform
themselves about the accuracy of a certain car, but oftentimes there isn't the
burning desire to have all things exceptionally accurate. Although the
person's choice is inaccurate, it does not fall into the bozo category. That, to
me, would be more of the "Coca-Cola" or "John Deere" train crowd. On the other
hand, if I had a 10-year old that preferred a Boraxo covered hopper over a
plain jane MoPac boxcar red car, I think I wouldn't discourage him from that
purchase and insist that he buy the bland boxcar because it might be "right." I
guess what I am getting at is that there is a spectrum of modelers and a
spectrum of cars that appeal to them. I don't think it makes them bozos.

On a different topic. You do a lot of articles for RMJ on prototype cars
associated with new models coming out. However, one thing I rarely see in these
articles is how well the new model fits the prototypes you show in the photos.
Isn't there some way to do this? The recent article on Athearn's mill gon
is a case in point. Does the model fit these photos or not? I know some are
obvious, but others are not, and the photos as published are not always useful,
because of their size, to determine accuracy. In this article in particular,
little is said of the model itself, and there is only one photo. It would
definitely help if we could see detail photos of the model along with the
prototype and have your expertise brought to bear on the accuracy of the model. I
am not complaining, I think these prototype/model articles in in RMJ are the
only reason I still subscribe. I'm just suggesting that there is another level
to which we can aspire.

Jerry Michels


Re: Mold repair (was Re: Athearn Gondola News)

Bill Schneider <branchline@...>
 

Branchline's molds are all aluminum. FWIW, we have some common molds that have well over 400,000 shots on them now with no or minimal re-working. We also have a few that have 10 (yes, ten) or less before needing repair. In both cases the care with which the molds are installed and shot contributed directly to their longevity - or lack thereof. (Hint - do NOT use a steel screwdriver to pry a stuck plastic part out of an aluminum mold).

We have run into issues with ejector pin wear on some of the higher mileage molds, with the holes going somewhat egg-shaped or wearing to a loose fit. Re-working for a one step larger pin is generally possible and fixes the problem. There is also welding technology available today that allows a damaged area to be built up and re-machined without the need for fitting plugs.

Bill Schneider


Re: Code 88 wheels?

Martin McGuirk <mjmcguirk@...>
 

I find it even more fascinating that the Reboxx and Intermountain measurements aren't identical - which leads me to believe the issue is with the measurer, not the measuree (the wheels).

Consider also that the surface of the wheel is not truly flat, and the flange increase slightly in width from the outer edge of the flange towards the tire surface. So, if you don't measure theses various dimensions at the exact same point you're from wheel to wheel you're going to get discrepancies.

But, rather than worrying too much about this you need to (1) figure out a way to get a truly accurate, consistent, measurements OR (2) simply accept the fact that "the wheels are narrower and look better." Quibbling over .0XX whatever of an inch, when no one has gottne a consistent measurement, seems academic at best.

Marty McGuirk


Re: Wiki's ( was Accuracy of paint schemes...)

al_brown03
 

The key point is that a wiki is reader- or member-contributed. (Not
sure etymology of "wiki".) Wikipedia is a large project, an
encyclopedia consisting of wikis on many topics. There are also wikis
outside Wikipedia. The *up*side of wikis is that they can collect
information rapidly from a wide variety of sources, whom the
organizers needn't seek out. Their archives are easily searchable. The
*criticism* of wikis is of their quality control; at best, they're
refereed less rigorously than professional journals. Note that BNSF's
northern route through Flathead and Cascade Tunnels is said, if I
understand the article, to have been built by the Northern Pacific.
For the administrator, maintaining the cross-links and graphics in
working order is difficult and exacting, at least for a friend of mine
who does it. One can readily imagine a freight-car wiki, together with
its advantages and disadvantages. Whether there should be one, I guess
depends on whether someone wants to run it. I don't, and lack the
computer skill anyway.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@...> wrote:

Martin McGuirk wrote:

I know even less -- let me start with "What's a Wiki?????"
Here is one example on the BNSF:
<<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BNSF_Railway>>

And a different one (chosen at random) on the C&EI
<<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_and_Eastern_Illinois_Railroad>>

Dave Nelson


Re: Accuracy of paint schemes...

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

On Mar 28, 2006, at 12:18 AM, Jared Harper wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., eabracher@... wrote:


In a message dated 3/27/06 10:15:40 AM, harper-brown@... writes:


I think the MRIA ought to set up a committee of some of the freight
car
gods, Richard, Tony and Ted, perhaps, and run all the paint schemes
by
them as to prototype accuracy.
eric
You guys failed to realize what I suggested was tongue in cheek, or do
Richard, Tony and Ted really believe they are gods?
Not me. The trick is to not open your mouth unless you have something to add. I put my foot in my mouth less often that way. It's also harder to be exposed as a fraud.

How much does this committee pay? I could always use some extra spending cash. Maybe they could sequester us in a hotel in a new location each month for a few days for us to review all of these schemes. I would expect a generous per diem, including an on call sommelier, to help with all of the stress of evaluating these models.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@...
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Timonium this weekend

Charles Hladik
 

Marty,
As I recall, Al posted that he would be there.
Chuck Hladik


Re: Wiki's ( was Accuracy of paint schemes...)

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Martin McGuirk wrote:

I know even less -- let me start with "What's a Wiki?????"
Here is one example on the BNSF:
<<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BNSF_Railway>>

And a different one (chosen at random) on the C&EI
<<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_and_Eastern_Illinois_Railroad>>

Dave Nelson


Pecos USNX Helium Car Decals-Need a set

ogdentowebercanyon
 

I think when Pecos did their helium car they included decals to be
applied to the different versions. Does anyone have a set of the USNX
decals they can part with or know where I can locate a set? The car I
have is lettered for the post USNX reporting marks and I need to
change it. Please contact me off list. Thanks.

Jason Sanford


Re: Accuracy of paint schemes...

Jared Harper <harper-brown@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., eabracher@... wrote:


In a message dated 3/27/06 10:15:40 AM, harper-brown@... writes:


I think the MRIA ought to set up a committee of some of the freight
car
gods, Richard, Tony and Ted, perhaps, and run all the paint schemes
by
them as to prototype accuracy.
eric
You guys failed to realize what I suggested was tongue in cheek, or do
Richard, Tony and Ted really believe they are gods?

Jared Harper
Athens, GA


Re: Code 88 wheels?

Dennis Storzek <dstorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Mike Brock" <brockm@...> wrote:

Tim O'Connor says:


Mike, .031 + .047 = .078 not .088. You want to remeasure?
Nah. As I mentioned, I cannot measure the point where the flange and
tread
meet any more accurately than about 1/128. [ +/- 0.0078 ] Same for
the Code
110 wheel. .101 + .0078 =0.1088. Well within the ball park.

Mike Brock
So... Mike wants to quibble over .002" on the depth of the flange and
.005" on its width, but can't measure closer than +/- .0078????

Dennis


Re: Code 88 wheels?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Tim O'Connor says:


Mike, .031 + .047 = .078 not .088. You want to remeasure?
Nah. As I mentioned, I cannot measure the point where the flange and tread meet any more accurately than about 1/128. [ +/- 0.0078 ] Same for the Code 110 wheel. .101 + .0078 =0.1088. Well within the ball park.

Mike Brock


Re: Code 88 wheels?

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

I know NWSL
sells P:87 wheels -- I don't know if they make "code 88" wheelsets.<
I bought NWSL 40" (or 42", I forget) wheels to retro-fit my PFM 4-8-4s
and think they were advertised as code 88. Never measured them or looked
that close except they are narrow tread and look much better on those
engines.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Code 88 wheels?

Schuyler Larrabee
 


Marty McGuirk writes:

The Code 88 wheel is a compromise --
Brock counters:
But, they also are not truly Code 88 wheels.
Sure they are, Mike. They're Code 88 because they measure .088" front face to back face. That's
what "Code" means, nothing more.

What you mean is that they are not an RP25 Code 88 wheel. You're right about that. IM wheels
aren't; Reboxx wheels aren't. Not sure about the others. What the IM and Reboxx wheels are, is
exactly what you said: Code 88 wheels with Code 110-thickness flanges. I've been noting that on
this list for at least two years.

SGL

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