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Re: Ancient Tank Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:

Now that I look it over, I wonder if UTLX #57801 isn't actually one
of those AC&F "high walkway" tank cars from pre-1920 with its walkway
handrails removed?
Tim, please stop trying to make this more complicated than it is. UTLX
57801 in the photo in the Classic Freight Cars tank car book is a UTL Class
X built in 1916 (essentially, an "improved" Van Dyke car with separate
center sill) that had been upgraded with AB air brakes, ARA cast steel
trucks, and a larger diameter dome (the original dome was smaller and had
the single safety valve on an elbox attached to the side of the dome, as
shown in numerous photos of these cars as built).

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Ancient Tank Cars

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 10:40 AM 2/2/01 -0500, you wrote:

The bottom sheet on a Van Dyke tank extends beyond the ends and is
probably thicker to act as the underframe. The dome on 57801 is larger
than that on the Precision Scale tank.
Now that I look it over, I wonder if UTLX #57801 isn't actually one
of those AC&F "high walkway" tank cars from pre-1920 with its walkway
handrails removed?

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: tank car decals

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 04:07 PM 2/2/01 -0600, you wrote:

Howdy,
According to Greg Martin's Scuttlebutt collumn in the January Mainline
Modeler, Microscale has announced set 87-986, assorted 1910-1950 tank cars.
Any comments from y'all on the suitability of this sheet for decaling tanks
such as the P2K and intermountain 8K and 10K gallon tanks?
Bruce, that set has been out for a year or two already! (I guess the
Scuttle is falling a little behind...)

Those decals are exclusively for AC&F high walkway tank cars, and unless
you model pre-1930's or specific railroad MofW tank cars, you won't want
them. They're only good for W&R brass imported models.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Distribution of the boxcar fleet, 1948-50

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Having had the topic of home vs. foreign cars come up again I decided to
crunch a few numbers & see whether the data from my conductors books was in
any way similar to an ORER from about the same time. The focus is on
boxcars. The first number in the table below is percentage each roads own
roster of boxcars is of the April, 1950 North American boxcar fleet. My
database lacks the military roster, but as I used a fleet total of 834664
cars I doubt the missing cars would skew the results I show. The second
number is the percentage of total spottings that road has in my 1948
conductors books. 1231 boxcars were recorded by the conductor, making them a
sample size of 0.15% of the total boxcar fleet.

I cut off the listing at the accumulated 80th percentile of the North
American Fleet (i.e., the remaining 20% would have taken up another 80
lines).

If the numbers are close the boxcars are geographically evenly
distributed;if they are not close, some undetermined factor is causing more
or less cars to have been recorded by the conductor.

Results are listed below, sorted by expected % in descending order.


road expected actual
CN 7.97% 0.24%
PRR 7.95% 8.20%
NYC 7.70% 7.96%
CP 6.55% 0.08%
ATSF 4.20% 4.47%
MILW 3.84% 2.84%
BO 3.43% 3.82%
SP 3.33% 2.27%
SOU 3.13% 11.94%
UP 2.82% 3.01%
CNW 2.78% 3.98%
GN 2.68% 2.11%
CBQ 2.59% 3.01%
IC 2.52% 2.27%
NP 2.34% 2.44%
RI 2.18% 2.84%
MP 2.17% 2.11%
CO 1.69% 2.52%
SLSF 1.58% 1.79%
ERIE 1.44% 2.19%
LN 1.39% 3.01%
WAB 1.39% 0.57%
ACL 1.36% 1.79%
SAL 1.13% 1.38%
NW 1.06% 1.46%
SOO 1.06% 1.06%

As one can see, the actual matches the expected very closely, with 3 large
exceptions: Canadian roads are under-represented and the home road (SOU) is
over represented. None of these should be a surprise. One of the smaller
exceptions can also be easily explained: The route from which the conductors
books are taken is a short distance from Knoxville TN, a major gateway
between the Southern and the L&N and the city where most of these cars have
or will pass through. This may also be a factor in the C&O numbers.

The reader is left to draw their own conclusions on what this might mean, if
anything, for building up their roster of boxcars.
-----------------------------------
Dave Nelson


tank car decals

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Howdy,

According to Greg Martin's Scuttlebutt collumn in the January Mainline
Modeler, Microscale has announced set 87-986, assorted 1910-1950 tank cars.
Any comments from y'all on the suitability of this sheet for decaling tanks
such as the P2K and intermountain 8K and 10K gallon tanks?

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: WM hopper trucks

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

Larry - thanks - John

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana and Larry Kline" <klinelarrydanajon@worldnet.att.net>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 4:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: WM hopper trucks


<John Nehrich wrote:
One of our members is assembling a bunch of the Stewart channel side
hoppers, and wanted to know what trucks to use. I found one picture where
I
think the car had Andrews, but it isn't clear, and one photo does not a
roster make. Any information? - John>

All of the 1947 and later photos I have of WM channel side hoppers show
cast
steel (Bettendorf) trucks of various types. Some photos show two
different
truck types on one car. Some of the 1916-17 Pullman hoppers that were
converted to channel side cars in 1927-32 were built with Bettendorf
T-section trucks and kept them after rebuilding. The latest photo I have
of
a car with Bettendorf T-section trucks is dated 1942. I also have one
1940
photo of a car with one cast steel truck and one Bettendorf T-section
truck.

Larry Kline



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Re: Ancient Tank Cars

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

I see what you mean -- but isn't it just a Van Dyke tank mounted
onto a later frame (really, just a center sill)?

At 12:52 AM 2/2/01 -0500, you wrote:
Tim,
Look again, 57801 is not a Van Dyke car.
I don't think that they lasted past 1953.
There are only five standard gauge cars listed in the 7-53 ORER.
Bill Kelly

Tim wrote:
snippage<
There's a 1969 photo of UTLX #57801, a Van Dyke tank car, in the
Classic Freight Cars Volume 2.
Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: Ancient Tank Cars

Bill Kelly
 

The bottom sheet on a Van Dyke tank extends beyond the ends and is
probably thicker to act as the underframe. The dome on 57801 is larger
than that on the Precision Scale tank.

Bill Kelly

Tim wrote:

I see what you mean -- but isn't it just a Van Dyke tank mounted
onto a later frame (really, just a center sill)?
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Re: Ratios of Home Road vs. Foreign Roads

Dave & Libby Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dana and Larry Kline [mailto:klinelarrydanajon@worldnet.att.net]


I agree with Richard Hendrickson that photographic or other
documentation is
the best approach to determining the ratio of home road and foreign road
cars.
Beg to differ. Photos will almost always show a small portion - usually
that portion closest to the locomotive. Far better evidence, while hard to
come by, are conductors books, interchange logs, and yard jumbos. On an
aggregate level, the railroads reported the percent of home house and open
top cars at home and said numbers were published by the ICC, the AAR, and
Railway Age.

Assuming a typical value of
one car turn per month, the total number of WM boxcar shipments
in 1952 was about 27,000.
I don't recall ever seeing an cycle time numbers. I think it would be
interesting. But then I'm a data head.

Dave Nelson


Bill Welch Test

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

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Re: Ancient Tank Cars

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

There is also the Precision Scale model of a Van Dyke, which has
slightly different dimensions, and I would think could be mounted on
a new underframe. - John
Shawn, the Precision Scale model is accurate for prototypes that
lasted into the 1960's. Richard Hendrickson wrote an article on
modeling them, including modifications to Bowser (?) caboose trucks
that have the correct wheel base. Precision Scale makes, I think,
two different models -- regular and "deluxe". The more expensive
one is better/sturdier because it has metal parts where needed.
There's a 1969 photo of UTLX #57801, a Van Dyke tank car, in the
Classic Freight Cars Volume 2. It appears to be riding on normal
ASF A-3 Ride Control trucks.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


Re: USRA composite gons

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

At 10:07 PM 2/1/01 -0600, you wrote:

Just doing some tests to see if my Youngstown containers would fit in the
Intermountain and Lifelike kits - I plan to issue a 10 container load for
Mop. Turns out the Lifelike car is about 6" narrower than prototype and
won't fit the containers. Intermountain is about 2" oversize and will (and
would have if the correct width). - Al Westerfield
Al... I wonder if your load will fit Sunshine's Greenville car
(same prototype as the Proto2000). It came with thin-wall sides.
I can test fit it for you, if you're interested. ;o)

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@mediaone.net>
Marlborough, Massachusetts


USRA composite gons

Al & Patricia Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Just doing some tests to see if my Youngstown containers would fit in the
Intermountain and Lifelike kits - I plan to issue a 10 container load for
Mop. Turns out the Lifelike car is about 6" narrower than prototype and
won't fit the containers. Intermountain is about 2" oversize and will (and
would have if the correct width). - Al Westerfield
Westerfield


Re: Copeland

Earl Tuson
 

From: "Dave & Libby Nelson" <muskoka@ix.netcom.com>

Larry, where did you find the H.H. Copeland reports? What year do the
cover?
Dave and others,

I have a copy of Ron Glas's 1990 compilation of available Copeland resources
located at NWU. I'd be happy to quote from it, but it would better to find Ron
and get permission for me to distibute it in its entirety.

Earl Tuson

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Re: Ancient Tank Cars

Bill Kelly
 

Tim,
Look again, 57801 is not a Van Dyke car.
I don't think that they lasted past 1953.
There are only five standard gauge cars listed in the 7-53 ORER.
Bill Kelly

Tim wrote:
snippage<
There's a 1969 photo of UTLX #57801, a Van Dyke tank car, in the
Classic Freight Cars Volume 2.
________________________________________________________________
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B&O milk cars

John Nehrich <nehrij@...>
 

M.D. McCarter has a couple of photos of B&O milk cars from the series
824-850, which were standard ice bunker reefers. He took the photos in '48,
but the latest equipment register I have for passenger cars is '43. Does
anyone know how late they survived? - John


Re: Ancient Tank Cars

Shawn Beckert
 

Richard and Gang,

Ok, so I looked up Precision Scale's Van Dyke tank at
the Walthers website. It's in stock for $18 or so.
Odd looking little monster. How long did these last
in interchange, the 1940's?

Shawn Beckert


Re: Ratios of Home Road vs. Foreign Roads

Dana and Larry Kline <klinelarrydanajon@...>
 

I agree with Richard Hendrickson that photographic or other documentation is
the best approach to determining the ratio of home road and foreign road
cars. The photos and videos available to me show that boxcars are, by far,
the most common car type in WM merchandise trains, and that foreign road
cars are much more common than home road cars.

It is interesting to compare the data from photos and videos with Copeland
Report data. On the Western Maryland all merchandise traffic to and from the
west was interchanged at Connellsville, PA. The WM 1952 Copeland Report
gives the following numbers of cars interchanged at Connellsville.

Eastbound
P&LE 29,228
P&WV 28,783
B&O 3,310
PRR 2,577
Westbound
P&LE 34,583
P&WV 44,287
B&O 1,039
PRR 293
Total Eastbound+Westbound 144,100

The WM had 2,284 boxcars as of January 1953. Assuming a typical value of
one car turn per month, the total number of WM boxcar shipments in 1952 was
about 27,000. Only a fraction of these shipments would have been
interchanged at Connellsville. Thus, home road cars can account for only a
small fraction of the cars interchanged at Connellsville and one would
expect that most boxcars in WM merchandise trains would be foreign road
cars, as suggested by photos and videos.

Larry Kline


H.H. Copeland Reports

Dana and Larry Kline <klinelarrydanajon@...>
 

<Dave Nelson wrote:
Larry, where did you find the H.H. Copeland reports? What year do they
cover?>

The Guide to RR Historical Resources by Taber lists the Copeland Reports (on
interchange and traffic density) holdings at the Baker Library at the
Harvard Business School, The Transportation Library at Northwestern Univ.,
and the St. Louis Mercantile Library. I have used the holdings at Harvard
and Northwestern. The Northwestern is much more laid back. They permit
copying and don't require permission to publish research results. Harvard
will supply copied, at a higher cost and does require permission to publish
research results.

The holdings at Northwestern cover WM for most years from 1926 to 1956.
However, this unusual. For many railroads, there is data for only one or a
few years. I didn't make a list of the holdings at Northwestern. The
holdings at Harvard are: (RR no of yrs.) Alton 3, AA 2, ATSF 6, ACL 8, B&O
6, BAR 3, B&A 6, B&M 21, CP 2, CGa 2, CRRNJ 5, CV 1, C&O 6, C&EI 14, C&NW 7,
CB&Q 14, CGW 5, CI&L 13, MILW 16, RI 26, CCStL 9, C&S 11, D&H 14, DL&W 11,
DRGW 30, ERIE 17, FEC 13, GN 5, GTW 1, Gulf Coast 11, GM&O 6, IC 12, IGN 11,
KCS 10, LV 1, L&A 1, L&N 4, MEC 21, MC 8, M&StL 2, SOO 39, MKT 16, MP 15,
M&O 2, Monon 1, NC&StL 1, NYC 9, NYC&StL 5, NH 2, NYO&W 2, NS 1, NP 6, PRR
4, P&LE 4, RDG 4, Frisco 9, StLSW 3, Seaboard 13, SP 5, SR 13, T&P 9, UP 10,
VGN 4, WAB 21, WM 32, Panama Canal 1.

Larry Kline


Re: WM hopper trucks

Dana and Larry Kline <klinelarrydanajon@...>
 

<John Nehrich wrote:
One of our members is assembling a bunch of the Stewart channel side
hoppers, and wanted to know what trucks to use. I found one picture where I
think the car had Andrews, but it isn't clear, and one photo does not a
roster make. Any information? - John>

All of the 1947 and later photos I have of WM channel side hoppers show cast
steel (Bettendorf) trucks of various types. Some photos show two different
truck types on one car. Some of the 1916-17 Pullman hoppers that were
converted to channel side cars in 1927-32 were built with Bettendorf
T-section trucks and kept them after rebuilding. The latest photo I have of
a car with Bettendorf T-section trucks is dated 1942. I also have one 1940
photo of a car with one cast steel truck and one Bettendorf T-section truck.

Larry Kline

181881 - 181900 of 182429