As I recall, Bill McClung was considering issuing the O scale kits in RI lettering, as the prototypes were quite close, and an obvious concern is to find acceptable alternatives to utilize existing (and expensive) tooling. So far as I know, nothing came of the idea, which is too bad, as I would have bought a couple.
Ed is right about the CBC content (and TSC reprint), which I believe was the starting point for a scratch-built car article in MRR back in the 1950's (by Al Kamm, if memory serves). If Bill never does produce an O scale version, that is a ways down my list of projects.

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

I seems like these cars were discussed, at some point in the distant past. Someone with better searching techniques in the STMFC archives will probably point out where.

These cars were the subject of an old wood "craftsman" kit first from Prototype Modeler and then from Taurus. The decals came, I believe, from Microscale. Perhaps they can still reproduce the set as a Mini-Cal. There will also a similar set from Walthers in the dark ages, not as "correct" as the ones from the kit.

Today, the Red Caboose R-30-12 kit could make a decent starting point for a kitbash.

As best as we can tell, the cars had yellow sides and brown ends. I don't have the Mainline Modeler issue, so I can't be sure exactly what information is there.

As I recall the story, the RI sold their refrigerator fleet back(both freight and express) to General American during the depression. The cars kept their RI numbers, but change reporting marks to GARX. I have a Hopkins photo of one in Washington DC in the 40's.

A few of these wanderers actually came home to the RI in the 50's, being purchased for ice service. If you want some more details on this, contact me off list, and I will look up the details.

Steve Hile

My recollection is that drawings and builders photos of the Rock
Island reefers offered by Prototype Modeler appeared in the 1931 CBC
and Trainshed reprints.

The drawings are so close to the PFE cars that I wouldn't be surprised
if the kit wasn't the same.

Ed Mines

Rob, last year I sent a couple of photos to Bill McClung and suggested
that he do the 1930s/'40s Rock Island lettering on the Red Caboose
model, but he didn't "bite." maybe if you nudged him about it, he'd do
a factory painted and lettered run of RI cars, especially if other list
subscribers indicated an interest in buying one or two.

Richard Hendrickson

I've always wanted to letter a steel PFE car for Rock Island,
which could be passed off as a "test car" to annoy those who know the
history: the RI tried to interest PFE in letting them "into the tent"
in the 1950s (the story is in the PFE book, page 26). The letters of
objection from UP, preserved in the UP President's Office
correspondence microfilms at the UP Museum, were blistering.
One of the RI letters even expressed a willingness to purchase
up to 1000 new steel reefers (where they would have gotten the money
isn't clear, but PFE would doubtless have made them a deal like they
had with WP, in which they made money while passing on part of the
revenue). Amongst all the correspondence is an internal PFE memo saying
that PFE could set aside the 58,000 series car numbers for the RI cars
if needed. As we all know, of course, no deal ensued. But most visitors
to my layout, seeing a steel PFE reefer with 58,000 series number and
RI emblem, would probably fall for it.
My friend Ken Harrison likes to say to such people, "Did you
know that 'gullible' isn't in the dictionary?" Others might well say,
"caveat emptor."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA

Bill, are you listening? BTW, the RITS guys would lap this up, too.

Brian Ehni

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The best color match I've found for postwar SFRD is
Accupaint Maine Central Harvest Yellow, straight out
of the bottle. It is the perfect combo of yellow and
orange. PFE [Daylight] Orange is quite different.

Tim O'Connor

It should be, Tim, since that's the color that IMRC and CB&T matched their
paint/body colors to! I happened upon the color when I was doing the
research for the old CB&T cars.

I've not compared to the same color in Polly Scale, though. I wonder how it
compares?

Keith Jordan

Well I don't know, what happened with Page 16, but maybe it will lead to another major motion picture for Tom Hanks.

Or Tom Cruise?

Tom Arnold?

--

Scott Pitzer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sort of like a good book where the second to last page has been torn out. So, one more time, does anyone have the MISSING page 16 that they can share? Thanks in advance!

It's in the compressed version in the Files section.

Frank Greene
Memphis, TN
fgreen01@...

Since I have had nary response, on or off list, to my first post below, I thought I would make a another run at it. The Freight Car Underframe download is MISSING page 16. I find it hard to believe that it has been downloaded over 200 times and I am the only one who seems to have noticed this shortfall. The article is very incomplete with this page missing. Sort of like a good book where the second to last page has been torn out. So, one more time, does anyone have the MISSING page 16 that they can share? Thanks in advance!

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

Dave Eggleston wrote:

So, always go archival quality regardless of media,
but also plan to store all media in dark, cool areas,
and have a reminder to check everything every 3-5
years.

Don't forget "dry" place: moisture is known to be bad for CD-R disks. Archival, yes: the Gutenberg bible looks like it was printed yesterday.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Does anyone have extensive B&W prints from Railroad Avenue Enterprises?
What memorable freight car photos do you have from them?

I have a couple that I bought at hobby shops and swap meets including
some genuine freight car photos (some list a print which has a tiny
car in the middle as a freight car photo).

Everything I have from them is pretty nice (the benefit of eyeballing
something before you buy it).

They have a little 40 page book (20 - 8-1/2 X 11s) which lists a few
of the prints. Supposed some of the lists for individual railroads are
10-20 pages. Modern is mixed in with steam era but most negatives are
dated.

They recently sent me that little book where prices are in the $3-
$3.50 range (better than $20+ per print).

I've been disappointed a lot when I buy prints from big lists (there
are 2 men with a lot of steam era Erie prints). The quality is very
variable. Yard photos in particular aren't what I hope for.

$4 or more a pop to see what something is is a little pricy.

I'd like to go see what these guys have but my back is getting worse.
Some men have so many negatives that they haven't even made prints
from some of them.

Ed

Sure. Sorry this is slightly off topic, but in some
ways it isn't in that we're helping to preserve
archives for future research on freight cars <G>.

While I know there are manufacturers out there touting
300 year lifespans I am skeptical. A lot affects the
longevity of a CD, from the manufacturing process to
how it's stored. Besides, who's got any CDs that are
over 15 years old at this point? We've got gold
masters that are degrading after 10 years, stored
pretty properly. My advice remains to plan to make
copies every 5 years.

Check out this article for more specific scientific
details (in layman's language):
http://ourldsfamily.com/PhotoMax/CDLifeSpan.shtml

Also, remember that technology changes. Will future
(50 years hence) computers read the formats we're
using today? Probably. Or not. Keep this in mind and
be prepared to change file formats if necessary.

Lastly, like Jack, I tend to print out copies of
everything to have a fast reference. But print copies
made on commercial devices also have limited lives, in
some cases laser jet output disappears from the paper
in as little as 5 years!

So, always go archival quality regardless of media,
but also plan to store all media in dark, cool areas,
and have a reminder to check everything every 3-5
years.

Dave Eggleston

--- Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
wrote:

Maybe Dave

can elaborate.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press,

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ed_mines wrote:

SFRD reefers show more variation in side color in B&W photos than do
PFE reefers. Some of the SFRD cars in the Hendrickson et al SFRD
reefer book are definitely a dark color. Some photos show light and
dark sided cars side by side.

Probably because SFRD didn't wash reefers, or not as often.

The Champ decal book said PFE reefers were yellow. Until I saw a
photo I always thought it must have been a school bus yellow (there
aren't that many color photos in your book, but I think ones you
have were the first I saw).

They WERE yellow before 1929, but certainly were all orange by 1934, as documented clearly in PFE shop records and reported in the PFE book. There was long a "modeler's myth" that they were yellow much later, based on what, I don't know.

I wonder how many modelers show this variation in paint?

I can name two: Richard Hendrickson and me.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Um, Santa Fe folk are probably all in orbit after reading
about

Daylight Orange . . . but the orange paints used on reefers most
definitely did weather and fade toward yellow. Lots of photo

examples

I described the color as "Daylight" orange because that usually the
description given to PFE reefers and SFRD orange is described
as "similar to PFE orange".

PFE reefers lighten to "MEC gold" which seens to vary from
manufacturer to manufacturer. The most faded paint on PFE wood
sided reefers I've seen in pictures is slightly more orange than MEC
gold.

SFRD reefers show more variation in side color in B&W photos than do
PFE reefers. Some of the SFRD cars in the Hendrickson et al SFRD
reefer book are definitely a dark color. Some photos show light and
dark sided cars side by side.

I haven't seen that many color photos of steam era reefers.

It's interesting to me that Walthers decal book #1 said SFRD reefers
were yellow as did the Ambroid kit for a 50 ft., wood side reefer.

The Champ decal book said PFE reefers were yellow. Until I saw a
photo I always thought it must have been a school bus yellow (there
aren't that many color photos in your book, but I think ones you
have were the first I saw).

I wonder how many modelers show this variation in paint?

Ed

10" Simonds all-purpose paddle handle file. You can find them on J&L
Industrial Supply's web site, item number SII-18800J. The file is 10"
long plus handle, 1" wide and 1/8" thick, uniform width & thickness
for the entire cutting length. Fine cut on one side, coarse on the
other, one blind edge as Andy said. The paddle handle makes it very
easy to, well, ..handle. Much easier than a tang. Just over ten bucks
each.

The "laminate file" name came from Bob Schleicher's long-ago article,
because he got his at McGukin's Hardware in Boulder, and that's what
McGukin's calls them. I live in Boulder and Tim bought his on a visit
here. I've gone through four of them so far.

Tom -
Two questions -
I'm finding a laminate file here : http://www.cabinetmart.com/05-60700.html
Is this the same file you referred to as the "laminate file" in the second
paragraph above?

I also checked the J&L tool. I like the idea of the paddle handle better,
but I'm curious whether you use the coarse side much. I've always used a new
12" single cut mill file for plastics. Except for the paddle handle and the
constant width, I wonder if I'm not just as well off, since I can use both
sides. I have never tried a coarse cut file because I was concerned about
taking too much material off at one time.

Thanks for your time in helping us and thanks to all for tolerating
additional questions.

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana

--- In STMFC@..., Dave Eggleston <degg13@...> wrote:
Dave,
I back up all my photos on Gold Photo CD's, guaranteed for 300 yrs.
Jeff Coleman

CD shelf life is potentially short--as little as 5 years. I know, I
manage a group of CD builders at a large software
company and we've seen CDs degrade to the point of
being unreadable, just by sitting on a shelf.
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10" Simonds all-purpose paddle handle file. You can find them on J&L Industrial Supply's web site, item number SII-18800J. The file is 10" long plus handle, 1" wide and 1/8" thick, uniform width & thickness for the entire cutting length. Fine cut on one side, coarse on the other, one blind edge as Andy said. The paddle handle makes it very easy to, well, ..handle. Much easier than a tang. Just over ten bucks each.

Tom Madden

I looked up the Simonds and it didn't seem like it was specific to plastics. Are the teeth really different from an ordinary mill file? I will look for one locally so I can see the teeth up close. How's J&Ls service? They have a great selection/catalog.

I worked in the machine shops for 40 years, We never tosed a file away ever. When they got to dull for steel, we used them on brass, then on aluminum, then on anything else. Larry Jackman
ljack70117@...

Take Larry's advice for how to file. The only exception is that I start out my files on brass instead of on steel. It's supposed to help the files last longer according to the clockmaking crowd, I always buy American or Swiss files and they last fairly long anyway since I rarely use them on cast iron or other nasty materials. I find the standard mill files OK for plastics and resins, but if I find something better, I certainly would start using it!

You ALWAYS put a file handle on it.

I have an assortment of file handles on hand, when I get a file with a tang I immediately stick a handle on. The paddle handle looks safe to use without one though...

Jim Eckman

Jack,

Thanks for the information.

Jerry

Dave Eggleston wrote:

2) CD shelf life is
potentially short--as little as 5 years. I know, I
manage a group of CD builders at a large software
company and we've seen CDs degrade to the point of
being unreadable, just by sitting on a shelf. Make
sure you're making regular copies of those CDs, say
every couple of years.

Extremely good point. I've run into this too, and have some data (luckily not critical) which was lost on rotted CDs. I believe this is a problem of CD-R, not commercially produced software CDs. Maybe Dave can elaborate.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Paul Lyons asked:

Tom, I am curious as to how you use the laminate file. I have one
and use it a lot on the long edges of large castings, but I have
never tried it on the "backs" as your earlier post suggests.

For production casting I cast flat-back parts in closed multi-cavity
molds whenever possible (replacement ends for CV stock cars for the
NP Society; sides, ends & doors for the Northern Specific Models NP
stock cars; Pullman ice A/C sumps for NERS; etc.). That way the
castings come out of the mold the same thickness as the patterns. I
use the laminate file to remove nubs of gates & vents from the flat
sides of such parts. That's my major use.

For kit assembly, I'll use the file rather than sandpaper to remove
small castings from flash sheets. Lay the file on the workbench,
fine side up, and with your finger on the casting rub it back &
forth on the file until it comes free of the flash. I find that
small castings come out more uniform in thickness than when I use
sandpaper. Maybe if the sandpaper was bonded to a surface plate it
would do as well, but I've never had a lot of success maintaining
uniform thickness when holding 320 or 400 grit paper down with one
hand while trying to sweep a small casting back & forth with the
other. Large castings, yes, but small ones usually wind up wedge-
shaped. And of course, like you, I use the file for trueing long
edges on kit castings.

Tom Madden

Jack:

Very nice synopsis of a good system. Two things I
noted of interest. 1) using those sleeves with the
black paper to hold photos. I think (hope) you are
using archival quality sleeves, not the cheap ones you
can get at Staples. Just want to be sure people avoid
those cheap poly ones like the plague except for paper
items--no photos in them. 2) CD shelf life is
potentially short--as little as 5 years. I know, I
manage a group of CD builders at a large software
company and we've seen CDs degrade to the point of
being unreadable, just by sitting on a shelf. Make
sure you're making regular copies of those CDs, say
every couple of years.

Dave

--- Jack Burgess <jack@...> wrote:

Obviously, my interest is in the Yosemite Valley
Railroad and not freight
cars in general but I started a system many years
ago that has worked fairly
well. (Having a restricted interest makes the system
easier to build but
hopefully the ideas might apply to others).

Photos
Photos are cataloged in a simple flat data base. I
set up a 5-digit
numbering system. <SNIP>

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Paul,
There is no Daylight Orange by Accupaint, but Star paint has such a
color. If you use Accupaint use equal parts AP#17 CN Orange and AP#21
MEC Harvest Yellow. That is Lee Yeager's old formula and it looks right.

For Daylight Red many people use Accupaint AP#14 Socony Red, but this
is a shade to pink IMO. I find it better to again use Lee Yeager's
formula as follows: 50% #AP 66 SP Scarlet + 20% #AP 15 Warm Orange +
20% #AP 72 Rio Grande Yellow/Orange + 10% #AP 14 New Haven Socony Red

Some people use Accupaint AP#68 UP Harbour Mist gray for Lark Light
gray, while others prefer AP#45 NYC Light gray.
Hope that helps
Stefan Lerche'
Duncan, BC



--- In STMFC@..., paullaciura@... wrote:

With regard to the recent thread about Accupaint/Star Brand paints

could someone please clear up my confusion. The paints that are
listed in the Accupaint and PBL websites are:

Accupaint
AP-66 SP Scarlet - in stock
AP-65 SP Lark Dark Grey - in stock
AP-95 - SP Lettering Grey - not in stock (they say they are

"thinking" about it)

AP-96 - SP Daylight Orange - not in stock
Star Brand
STR-25 SP Scarlet
STR-26 SP Dark Grey
STR-27 SP Daylight Orange

So looking at the available paints SP Scarlet, Daylight Orange and

SP Lark Dark Grey are obvious matches. But what about SP Daylight Red
and SP Lark Light Orange? What do you use, Scarlet for Daylight Red?
I am confused about this issue. I want to use this paint but need to
know about the correct matches for Daylight Red and Lark Light Grey.

Thanks in advance to those who can respond with the information needed.
Paul LaCiura
San Francisco, CA

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On another subject, how do you folks who seem to have so much

data readily at your fingertips organize your "stuff?" Do
you use some sort of indexing process, just remember things
(which I don't do as well as I used to), electronically, written?

Jerry Michels

Obviously, my interest is in the Yosemite Valley Railroad and not freight
cars in general but I started a system many years ago that has worked fairly
well. (Having a restricted interest makes the system easier to build but
hopefully the ideas might apply to others).

Photos
Photos are cataloged in a simple flat data base. I set up a 5-digit
numbering system. The first two digits refer to the subject while the last 3
digits is a sequential number. (I can therefore have up to 999 photos of the
same general subject which has proven sufficient.) The subject numbers start
with stations or locations along the YV (10 for Merced, 11 for Merced Tower,
12 for ATSF interchange, and end at 31 for El Portal, the end of the line).
The YV only had 10 locomotives total and those subjects get subject numbers
32 through 41. The next set of numbers are assigned to types of freight cars
and passenger equipment (42 for flat cars, 43 for box cars, etc.) So, photo
43015 is a photo of a box car and the 15th box car photo that I acquired.
The data base includes the subject, date (if known), photographer (if
known), etc. The only problem with this system is cataloging a photo with
more than one interesting subject. For example, a photo of El Portal might
include one of the very early cabooses. That photo is indexed as a caboose
photo since those are more rare but it would be easy to include a copy of
the photo with the El Portal photos. However, I can usually remember such
photos.

Someday, I'd like to include a thumbnail of each photo in the data base but,
while nice, I don't really find it necessary. Even though I have over 2,425
photos of the YV in my collection, it is not that difficult to remember most
of them but I must admit that I still occasionally purchase a duplicate
photo.

I have about a dozen large binders which have copies of each of these
photos. I use the sheet dividers which have the black sheet in them to hold
the photos; the photos are held in place with removable tape and the photo
number is on a adhesive sticker on the back of the photo and also next to
the photo in the sheet divider. (A majority of the photos are 5x7.) Since I
have over 200 photos of just Merced, those are in one binder. Other binders
have several subjects. Of course, the photos are arranged by subject number
using tabs. While it would be nice to have all of the photos under each tab
organized numerically, I am continually removing pages and replacing them
and they get out of order. (I originally had the photos in regular file
folders but it was too easy to lose them that way.)

Other information
For years, other information such as reports, typed oral interviews,
sketches, notes, etc. were kept in a couple of binders with tabs using the
same subject names, i.e., Merced, Merced Tower, ATSF Interchange, etc. as
well as Box Cars, Stock Cars, etc. When I started my book, I went through
all of this paper and organized it as source materials.

Once my book was published, I wanted to get rid of a lot of the paper,
photocopies, and notes (not original YV documents of course) that
contributed to the book but I couldn't actually force myself to throw them
away. Instead, I scanned all of this source material, converted it to Adobe
Acrobat files, and put it on a couple of CDs. (These CDs are available
through my website.) Once scanned and backed-up, I was able to recycle this
source material. (Oral interviews are one of the most difficult items to
index since many of them include information on a number of subjects. To
index such items, I created a html page with hyperlinks to targets in the
interviews or other source material. It is thus easy to open the html file
in a browser, click on the index name, and immediately get to that item.)

On my "to do" list is to scan all of my photos and put those scans on CDs.
The CDs could be stored in a fire-proof box (our fire chief said that, if
such a box was stored on the floor and not on the top shelf of the closet,
it would most likely survive a fire) with additional copies of the CDs
stored off-site.

When I started collecting photos and source material, scanners weren't yet
invented (nor even PCs). If I were starting from scratch today, I'd use the
same system but scan photos as I get them and include a thumbnail in the
data base. But I'd still have hard copies of the photos in
binders....looking through the binders is an easy way to quickly answer a
question, etc. I have already scanned a large number of photos and put them
on CDs. I use Photoshop to create an index of all of the photos on each CD;
Photoshop has a feature which creates a "contact sheet" with thumbnails of
each photo along with the photo number. I have these contact sheets in
another binder with the CDs. It would be easy to include a CD number in the
photo data base so that you find the photo either through the data base or
in a binder and can immediately go to the CD to print a copy of the photo.

For scratchbuilding projects these days, I scan my original photos to have
the copies available on the workbench. If the project is large enough, I'll
create a binder just for the project and include sketches, notes, etc.

I hope these ideas might suggest some solutions for others.

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

Are we going to reach a conclusion on the color of this car? I sure
hope so. Bobby Pitts PS Sorry Mike but I think we'll at last have
a definitive answer to the age old question, SILVER OR BLACK, or
both!!!!!

If they are going through all that work, why offer a low res
file. Why would a nice file size around 900kb-1mb be offered.
That way it can be zoomed in for detail, especially if your
goal is for modeling purposes.

Andrew

In my previous mode:
A) because they'd like you to buy the photo
B) because they've found that higher rez photos give the dial-ups

fits

C) the size of file that would be required in order to get you the

detail you want to see is HUGE.

I scanned a 2"x3" image at 1200 dpi, and it was a 67 MEGABYTE

file. I did that because I wanted to

enlarge the photo to 5x7. Think what an 8x10 would require.

Buy the photo.

SGL