Denny Anspach wrote:

Just like my MOW outfit bunk car with complete fine interior detailing that no one can possibly perceive or see, this kind of hidden detailing accomplishment only satisfying to its creator can serve very well, if only in memory.

As always, Denny cuts to the heart of the matter. I care far more about what is important to ME, than to any potential layout visitor, when I'm choosing a level of accuracy or detail. Well said, Denny. (And yeah, I have a caboose with interior detail which can't be seen AT ALL.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Armand wrote, with a big grin:

Like most, my roster has changed over the years. Recently I have been
selling some highly detailed resin cars because the were no longer listed
in the OER for the period I am attempting to model. The question is, are

we

carrying all this a little bit too far. After all, whose layout is it?

Most

visiting firemen may not know the difference. You can always bring out

some

of those cars after the "Rivet Counters " leave. <G>

As free-lance modelers like to point out, it is your layout and you can do
whatever you want. But that is exactly the point....we put away models that
are not up to our current standards, sell models that we later discover
aren't correct for our modeling era, and retire models that we later
discover are incorrectly detailed or lettered based on new data. We do that
because it is our layout and we all have our own personal standards. I
suspect that we would continue to do that even without visitors. Even though
it is "only" a hobby, I like the continuing challenges provided by my
approach to the hobby....

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

"Been there, done that!". Clark's frustrations about brake detailing certain rang a few bells, and as expected, the varied responses both reflected and went to the heart of the spectrum of how each modeler enjoys his or her own particular participation in the hobby. Although in real time and in de facto real practice, I subscribe to Richard's and Marty's practice of modeling only to that level of detail that can be seen on one's own layout (and my models, by serendipity or otherwise, certainly are Exhibit #1 in this regard), I must also confess that my feelings toward brake detailing has moved from far to the left of Clark's very familiar level of frustration to now far to the right in actually being interested in, and liking such detail modeling.

Very recently, I looked at an ongoing resin modeling project with very deep side sills that was deliberately and completely devoid of any brake detailing (appliances, plumbing or rigging), none of which, if present, could possibly be seen unless the car was overturned. From an original remembered feeling of relief that here was something I could easily skip over, on reexamination sometime later, I simply couldn't stand it and went ahead and happily fabricated a complete brake system.

Just like my MOW outfit bunk car with complete fine interior detailing that no one can possibly perceive or see, this kind of hidden detailing accomplishment only satisfying to its creator can serve very well, if only in memory.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

Like most,my roster has changed over the years.Recently I have been
selling some highly detailed resin cars because the were no longer listed
in the OER for the period I am attempting to model.The question is,are we
carrying all this a little bit too far.After all, whose layout is it?Most
visiting firemen may not know the difference.You can always bring out some
of those cars after the "Rivet Counters " leave. <G> Armand Premo

Like most,my roster has changed over the years.Recently I have been
selling some highly detailed resin cars because the were no longer listed
in the OER for the period I am attempting to model.The question is,are we
carrying all this a little bit too far.After all, whose layout is it?Most
visiting firemen may not know the difference.You can always bring out some
of those cars after the "Rivet Counters " leave. <G> Armand Premo

On Oct 12, 2:51pm, rockroll50401 wrote:

Subject: [STMFC] Re: Kit brakes

Another way to look at it is, how much does a model cost in hobby time?
If I spend $30+ for a resin kit and it takes me 8 hours to finish it
the kit cost me.....(my best Red Green math)....$3.75 a hobby hour. If
I spend $30+ on a RTR model and it takes me 30 seconds to put it on the
layout...Wow, that's $60 a hobby hour!

No, that's $60 per hobby MINUTE. Multiply by 60 to get dollars per hour.

Of course, this all assumes that your hobby is BUILDING models and not
just OWNING models.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533

Thanks to those who replied. I see I do more than most, but a lot less
than some. It's always good to be in the middle of the pack.

The reason I add what I do is because I paid for the stuff in the kit
and I want to get my moneys worth :) I also like to keep the same level
of detail throughout the layout, engines, structures, scenery, etc. But
some of the stuff I'm just not that intersted in or don't have enough
info to do a more through job of detailing.

Another way to look at it is, how much does a model cost in hobby time?
If I spend $30+ for a resin kit and it takes me 8 hours to finish it
the kit cost me.....(my best Red Green math)....$3.75 a hobby hour. If
I spend $30+ on a RTR model and it takes me 30 seconds to put it on the
layout...Wow, that's $60 a hobby hour!

Clark-I can't wait for the replies on this post-Propst

Clark,

Good post, as always. I have a love-hate relationship with brake
rigging: I hate to do it, but I love when it's done. In fact, I
don't like building up underframes in general. I add the basics,
some rigging, and that's about it. I try to do a complete job on
covered hoppers and hoppers because everything's so visible, and
that's probably why I don't have many of those types of cars.

On a more off-topic note--and you'll enjoy this, Clark--I ran across
a list of all my freight cars that I possessed in 1996. As I went
through that list I couldn't believe my eyes. About 85% of the 1996
models have been sold or traded. Why? In most cases, it's because my
car construction wasn't good enough. Wrong prototypes, wrong era
paint job, and yes no brake rigging. I can thank you and Ted and
Richard and Jack Spencer and other guys for developing my new
standard, as I'm sure it's cost me a few grand for a new/rebuilt
fleet.

Here's the tie-in: Guys like you and Ted and Richard and Ed and
others led me to improve my modeling standards. That required that I
rebuild or replace everything in sight. And if it means putting in
an extra hour to produce more prototypical underframes, then I'm in.
I don't wire up everything, but I do the basics--but "the basics"
has a new definition today than it had in 1996.

Next, Clark, I have to compete with you when I build a layout.
That's going to be a lot tougher than fighting with a fishbelly
underframe for an hour.

See you guys in Naperville.

John

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL







--- In STMFC@..., "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

I'm working on the Speedwitch NP 50' SS door ½ box car. The body

is

made up of the side, ends, and roof. The underframe fits into the
body very well. I took time to fit different couplers than the kit
was designed for, no problems. The only real challenge to the kit
appears to be the end ladders. They're my next step.

It seems like almost half the kit's written instructions are

devoted

to the brake rigging. On this car with the `fish belly' center

beams

I add the three AB brake components, the two levers that go

through

the center beams, a wire from each lever to end of the car, and a
wire between the cylinder and the AB valve. On other style
underframes I'll add the two pipes between the air tank and valve

and

the link between the two levers. All this fiddling with the brake
rigging consumes almost half of the kit's assembly time. I can't
image the time and swear words it would take to do a more complete
job. I have put the brake rigging that comes with plastic kits on
resin models, a real time saver and they include the same stuff I
would have to fabricate. I don't even drill any holes. I cut all

the

mounting lugs off, lay the piece in place and super glue the crap

out

of everything.

I'm curious as to how much brake gear others hang under their

models?

Clark Propst

Clark,
That's ok. The boys down at the Lodge will give you some more duct tape.
Chuck Hladik

These aren't sprung, right? If you want to measure them yourself, and
have either a caliper or micrometer, do this:

Measure the diameter of the wheel over the flanges, and poke it into a
calculator;

Measure the tread diameter, and subtract from the figure above;
Divide by 2, that's the depth of one fange;

Set the truck on a flat surface and use the depth gage on the caliper
to measure from the centerplate to that surface;

Subtract from the flange value still in the calculator and take the
positive value, that's the distance it is above the rail head.

Thanks for the detailed instructions. I followed them and got the following
results:
Athearn Genesis 100T RB - .305"
Athearn Genesis 70T RB - .307"

Now I'm completely baffled. The bolster heights are almost identical and
both within the tolerance indicated. So why when I changed the 70 ton trucks
out for 100 ton trucks, did the coupler height change significantly? I can
see that I'm going to have to go back and revisit that conversion. The truck
bolster plate is the same shape on both, so there must be something else
affecting the switch.

But since this isn't happening until years after this group cuts off, nobody
here has to worry about it.<G>

Thanks again, Dennis!!

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana

--- In STMFC@..., "lrkdbn" <lrkdbn@...> wrote:

The Wayner book "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" has a picture of an
N6b being rebuilt ca.about 1938. It has detached K-1 or maybe H-1 (8"
cylinder)gear- the difference is negligable for us- and it is pretty
close to the side of the car. Grandt Line "narrow gauge" brake cylinder
could be used- I think they even give you a replacement cylinder head
for after you cut it in two to make the "detached" version.

Larry King <lrkdbn@...>

Yeah, and the Grandt Line set, being intended for NG, has the correct
8" cylinder.

Dennis

--- In STMFC@..., "DR Stinson" <dano@...> wrote:

Dennis -
Do you happen to have the heights for the two Athearn Genesis roller

bearing

trucks? They were the most eggregious examples I ran into and are

the basis

of a problem that won't happen for probably twenty years. I thought

it might

be worth a comparison.
Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana

No, sorry, I don't. These are way too new for my interests, and my
nearest LHS (at least one that carries anything useful) is an hour
away, and I rarely get there anymore.

If you want to mail some samples to me c/o Accurail, Inc. I'll measure
them and send them back. These may be the only oddballs in production
these days, and it's a shame, because I hear they're nice trucks
(although too modern for this list).

These aren't sprung, right? If you want to measure them yourself, and
have either a caliper or micrometer, do this:

Measure the diameter of the wheel over the flanges, and poke it into a
calculator;

Measure the tread diameter, and subtract from the figure above;
Divide by 2, that's the depth of one fange;

Set the truck on a flat surface and use the depth gage on the caliper
to measure from the centerplate to that surface;

Subtract from the flange value still in the calculator and take the
positive value, that's the distance it is above the rail head.

Or, if using a mike or a calipers without a depth gage, set the truck
on a stiff piece of flat material, like a chunk of .060" styrene, and
measure the whole sandwich from the centerplate to the bottom of the
flat plate, then subtract both flange and thickness of the styrene.

If these are sprung or loosely equalized, send them to me and I'll
measure them with a test indicator and gauge blocks, which will have a
much lighter touch.


Dennis

Dennis -
Do you happen to have the heights for the two Athearn Genesis roller bearing
trucks? They were the most eggregious examples I ran into and are the basis
of a problem that won't happen for probably twenty years. I thought it might
be worth a comparison.
Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana

--- In STMFC@..., "Justin Kahn" <harumd@...> wrote:

I got the first part of what I needed from Bruce, but I'd still

appreciate a

lead on how the K-2 brake rigging was located.

Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

The Wayner book "Cars of the Pennsylvania Railroad" has a picture of an
N6b being rebuilt ca.about 1938. It has detached K-1 or maybe H-1 (8"
cylinder)gear- the difference is negligable for us- and it is pretty
close to the side of the car. Grandt Line "narrow gauge" brake cylinder
could be used- I think they even give you a replacement cylinder head
for after you cut it in two to make the "detached" version.

Larry King <lrkdbn@...>

Jack is such a demon for detail that I supplied him with some superfluous data that I found earlier this week: that Janet Leigh was born in Merced in 1927.

Richard and many of you know my dirty little secret: the models in my ads only have as much detail as shows. Even the other side usual has another lettering (and perhaps) paint scheme. When I finally get back to building a layout, the rolling stock will only be detailed according to Richard's philosophy.
- Al Westerfield

Jeff,My more recent cars have full brake gear.Earlier cars do not.My
roster is too large to retrofit all at once.When cars are serviced they most
likely will be upgraded.Armand Premo

I have a similar shot of women with an IC reefer and bananas. It was and is a common sales aproach.

Richard Townsend
Lincoln City, Oregon

Thank you Richard,
If a plastic kit comes on the market and I can still assemble it, I'll
replace the models I'm using.
Clark Propst

List,

Those of you that know me know that I pride myself on posting useful,
accurate information that I can substanciate. Over the course of this
discussion, I've made the statement several times that Kadee trucks
follow the NMRA RP-23 centerplate dimension of 5/16", .3125".

When I compiled the list of heights yesterday, it bothered me that I
didn't have this dimension for the Kadee trucks. So, where did I come
up with .3125? It turns that I had made the assumption that since both
MDC and Kadee followed the RP-23 recommendation for the small kingpin
screw hole, I made the assumption that both also followed the RP-23
recommendation for height. It turns out that this was not a valid
assumption.

I dug out a pair of Kadee sprung Andrews trucks that must be at least
fifteen years old, and just measured them. With no appreciable load on
the springs, the centerplate is .299" above the rails. Since these are
sprung trucks, the weight of the carbody will likely depress them a
couple of thousandths, putting them spot on with the scale reduction
of the AAR standard dimension. I have added them to the list below.

=========================================================
NMRA RP23 .3125
Prototype 2'-2 3/4" .307 (MCB, reduced to HO scale)
Prototype 2'-1 3/4" .296 (AAR, reduced to HO scale)
Prototype 2'-1 1/2" .293 (AAR 1964, reduced to HO scale)

Kadee .299 (Andrews)
MDC .310 ("Bettendorf")
Athearn .292 ("Bettendorf")
Walthers .294 (all ex-TM one piece)
Kato .295 (ASF Ride Control 50T)
P2K .296 (AAR double truss 50T)
Atlas .288 (AAR double truss 50T)
Bowser .288 (Crown 70T)
Accurail .293 (all)
=========================================================

Which just again points out the problem with the NMRA Standards and
RP's. While these values must have been useful to someone at one time,
where they conflicted with prototype dimensions, the manufacturing
community eventually ignored them and adopted more useful values on
their own. I suggest that before the NMRA goes off and creates more
useless values that will be ignored, they take a look at what the
manufacturers have already worked out, and are presently using.

Dennis