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Re: Bulk Wine Shipments

ljack70117@...
 

I would bet on wine. When I was a switchman on the Santa Fe in Emporia Ks we had a lot of wine tank cars go through. I never saw a car with grape juice. IMHO it would be impossible to ship Grape juice in bulk with out contamination which would render it useless for any thing on the other end of the trip.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@adelphia.net

On Nov 19, 2006, at 9:35 AM, Russ Strodtz wrote:

I'll stand by grape juice shipped in tank cars. The wine tanks
were inside an express reefer carbody. The last I recall in
service were the Chateau Martin cars.

As to the origin my knowledge of the physical geography of
California is close to zero. All I saw was waybills. They did
not have maps included.

Russ
----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 16 November, 2006 17:45
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bulk Wine Shipments


On Nov 16, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

Russ Strodtz wrote:
In a similar vein I can recall that there was a winery at Canandaigua
NY that would get grape juice in bulk from the Napa Valley in
California.
Are you sure it was juice? Many eastern "wineries" purchased
California wine for blending and/or repackaging.






Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: GATX 1961 & 66 "Manual"s

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 18, 2006, at 11:26 AM, Rob Kirkham wrote:

I have as yet not managed to dredge up a photocopy of the 1961 GATX Tank Car
Manual. But working from a photocopy of the 1966 version, I wonder how many
of the drawings are suitable to STMFC's era - i.e. when were these built?
None, unfortunately - at least, not directly. The dimensions and general construction of the 8K and 10K gal. ICC-103Ws were similar to those of the welded cars built by GATC in the late 1940s and early 1950s, but there were many detail differences, tank car building practice having evolved quite a lot in the intervening decade.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Bulk Wine Shipments

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Nov 19, 2006, at 6:35 AM, Russ Strodtz wrote:

I'll stand by grape juice shipped in tank cars. The wine tanks
were inside an express reefer carbody. The last I recall in
service were the Chateau Martin cars.
In the era with which this list is concerned, most wine shipments traveled in glass-lined ICC-203 tank cars which were dedicated exclusively to bulk wine service. There were a sizable number of these cars; some were single compartment, but many had three, four, or six compartments so that different wines could be shipped in the same car. Almost all were built for the purpose by either AC&F or GATC; owned by Shippers Car Line, General American, or North American; and leased to shippers on a short or long term basis (long-term lessors often had billboard advertising stenciled on the cars). Such cars may have sometimes been used to ship grape juice, but all of the surviving documentation about them identifies them as wine cars, and few recipients would have had the facilities required to turn grape juice into wine; most were wholesalers who purchased bulk wine and then bottled and distributed it under their own labels.

In the steam era, wine cars consisting of tanks inside refrigerator car bodies were rare, though there were a few of them (e.g., ex-PFE cars owned by California Despatch Line). More extensive use of former express reefer-type milk cars to ship wine, as in the case of the Chateau Martin cars, came later.

As always in historical research, one must beware of over-generalizing on the basis of limited experience, especially when that experience post-dates the era under discussion.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Bulk Wine Shipments

Tony Thompson
 

Russ Strodtz wrote:
I'll stand by grape juice shipped in tank cars. The wine tanks were inside an express reefer carbody. The last I recall in service were the Chateau Martin cars.
There were plenty of conventional tank cars used to ship wine; most were insulated and many had multiple compartmants. The "box tank" type was certainly out there but rather less prevalent.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Bulk Wine Shipments

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

I'll stand by grape juice shipped in tank cars. The wine tanks
were inside an express reefer carbody. The last I recall in
service were the Chateau Martin cars.

As to the origin my knowledge of the physical geography of
California is close to zero. All I saw was waybills. They did
not have maps included.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 16 November, 2006 17:45
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bulk Wine Shipments


On Nov 16, 2006, at 10:47 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

> Russ Strodtz wrote:
>> In a similar vein I can recall that there was a winery at Canandaigua
>> NY that would get grape juice in bulk from the Napa Valley in
>> California.
>
> Are you sure it was juice? Many eastern "wineries" purchased
> California wine for blending and/or repackaging.


Re: Pickle Quibble

LOUIS WHITELEY <octoraro1@...>
 

I couldn't document the government ownership of pickle plants, but there was rationing in WWII and the government earmarked 40% of domestic pickle production for G.I. ration kits. Pickling, of course, is a way to preserve many foods, and pickled cucumbers have a lot of vitamin C and can prevent scurvy and other such nutritional deficiencies.


Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@verizon.net> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Meislahn

I have been challenged on the nutrient value of
pickles in my previous pickle car post.

----- Original Message -----

Well, not so much that but my puzzlement that the Feds (War Department?)
would claim that as a reason when the food had such dubious nutritional
value and they didn't get involved with meat or sugar or any number of other
food industries >>SERVED BY RAILROADS IN THE STEAM ERA<<. Actually my first
thought was that it was an artifact of WW I when the government seized many
German-owned businesses as enemy property.

Anyhoo,
KL


Re: Pickle Quibble

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Harry Meislahn

I have been challenged on the nutrient value of
pickles in my previous pickle car post.

----- Original Message -----

Well, not so much that but my puzzlement that the Feds (War Department?) would claim that as a reason when the food had such dubious nutritional value and they didn't get involved with meat or sugar or any number of other food industries >>SERVED BY RAILROADS IN THE STEAM ERA<<. Actually my first thought was that it was an artifact of WW I when the government seized many German-owned businesses as enemy property.

Anyhoo,
KL


RED not BLACK, not Brown, was Re: Tichy NC&StL Flat Car

golden1014
 

Gentlemen,

In a few moments I'm going to post a photo of the NC&StL flat in the
photos section from the 1931 CBC. Good view of this series of cars
with Dalman trucks.

Thanks again to everyone for the help.

John Golden
O'Fallon, IL


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:


On Nov 12, 2006, at 11:04 PM, Rob Adams wrote:

John;

Paul is correct about the discussion in the archives, but they
were
painted black, not freight car red/brown.

Kind regards, Rob Adams
Rob,

Au contraire! Garrett Rea tried to clear up this mess back on
October 24, 2005 on this list with the following statement:
"I spoke with Steve Johnson at length about these and other cars
this
past April before James Bilbrey and I put together our NC&StL
freight
car modelling clinc and thick booklet this past May. Steve's
comments than and again this weekend along with builder and in-
service photo review still steer us to oxide red for the cars."

The RPI site notes the controversy and attributes boxcar red to
Richard Hendrickson and black to the same Steve Johnson, but based
on
this discussion last year (which I precipitated), my Tichy NC&StL
flat is oxide red. Now to swap out those ECW Dalman trucks for
the
Tahoe ones!

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the
windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___
________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __
__ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; |
||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-
0


Re: End Sill Brake Hose Hanger

Schuyler Larrabee
 

The brake hose hanger included with some Sunshine kits is a
different style than the Kadee type. Looked at from the side,
the Sunshine hanger looks like a hollow triangle extending
about a foot beyond the end sill. I'd like to see this part
available in a break-resistant material. It would be another
step forward in accuracy for us rivet counters.

Jim Hayes
Second vote for these. In brass, please.

SGL


Pickle Quibble

Harry Meislahn
 

I have been challenged on the nutrient value of
pickles in my previous pickle car post.

My source is "Early Settlers of the Dakotas" on the
web and the nutrients cited are acetic acid and lactic
acid. I have verified that pickles do indeed contain
these acids (www.fao.org/docrep/V5030E/V5030E0d.htm).


I am not about to buy a bottle of pickles, but I do
think it's interesting that the federal government was
so focussed on soldiers' nutrition in World War II
that it took the seemingly bizarre step of buying part
of a pickle company. Whether this was a good decision
in view of our present understanding of nutrition
seems far afield from steam era freight cars.

Harry Meislahn


RPM Meets

Andy Harman <andy10stmfc@...>
 

Clark Propst wrote:


spend my money on the hobby not food. The clinics were only on once,
so you were forced to choose between them. Was a real good time, we
have our plane tickets for the upcoming meet. Rated #2, but very
close to #1 needs more venders and clinics held twice.
<<<<

Hmm... I have been to Cocoa Beach every year since it started, and I've
given a clinic each time, and each time I have done that clinic twice.
Actually the one I did in 2002 I may have done only once, but I know the
last three for sure I did twice. I'm sure there are clinics more popular
than mine, which were also given twice.

Naperville is the Daddy meet. This year there was a half hour between
presentations and a much larger sales room. Big pluses. Again the
meet is in a hotel so you have to leave for food. There are several
places to eat close by. Many folks take advantage of what the large
city has to offer modelers by visiting hobby shops and local layouts
and Polish buffets. This show is always a good time. Rated #1
<<<<

The last 2 years the dealers have all been in the large ballroom on
Saturday. This is ok by itself, but it winds up splitting the activity
between the model display room and the dealer room, which feels like about
a 1/4 mile walk. Ok, it's not, but they aren't exactly adjacent. The
model room just seemed to wither on Saturday... in the old days where the
dealers were around in separate rooms, and open all the time (Fri and Sat),
people were perhaps more spread out in general, but it seemed more
balanced. The big one-day dealer room makes it feel like two separate events.

Andy
My third and final try to send this post from a week ago. For some reason
my mail client converted it to mime. First time Eudora has done than in 9
years..

Andy


Re: Bulk Wine Shipments

hoghead32 <buckfiveoh@...>
 

Into the early 70's, Madiera Wines in Baltimore received uncut wine in
8,000/10,000 gal. tanks from California. Madiera simply cut and
bottled the stuff for sale locally. The train crews would sometimes
spot the car on a chock at one end, so when the car was emptied, about
50 gallons was left in the "empty" for retrieval up in the yard
later. M.J. Buckelew [hoghead32]


Russ Strodtz wrote:
In a similar vein I can recall that there was a winery at
Canandaigua
NY that would get grape juice in bulk from the Napa Valley in
California.
Are you sure it was juice? Many eastern "wineries"
purchased
California wine for blending and/or repackaging.


Re: IM "reject" belt rail steel meat reefers...any prototypes?

Ed Hawkins
 

On Nov 18, 2006, at 2:48 PM, stefanelaine wrote:

I picked up some of those "ACF built" center belt rail meat reefers
for cheap that were done wrong for ARM by IM, in their anything goes
schemes(Yes, I've got the good ART kits from Jerry as well).

Any ideas on close prototypes for the IM "reject" cars?
I've found pics of the follwing that look close:

URTX 60067 Spencer Packing - needs 3/3 ends but looks to be close, not
sure about roof
URTX 60487 Needham Packing (60400-524 series?) - ends?, roof?
URTX 67315 Des Moines Packers - ends/roof
URTX 65074 Bookey packing - ends/roof
Stephan,
Reefers with 4-panels sides having horizontal riveted seams and
square-corner 4/4 Dreadnaught Steel Ends were unique to ART. The URTX
cars either have the wrong ends (various Improved Dreadnaught
arrangements with round corners), wrong roof, wrong underframe (some
were Duryea), or a combination.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


IM "reject" belt rail steel meat reefers...any prototypes?

oliver
 

Folks,
I picked up some of those "ACF built" center belt rail meat reefers
for cheap that were done wrong for ARM by IM, in their anything goes
schemes(Yes, I've got the good ART kits from Jerry as well).

Any ideas on close prototypes for the IM "reject" cars?
I've found pics of the follwing that look close:

URTX 60067 Spencer Packing - needs 3/3 ends but looks to be close, not
sure about roof
URTX 60487 Needham Packing (60400-524 series?) - ends?, roof?
URTX 67315 Des Moines Packers - ends/roof
URTX 65074 Bookey packing - ends/roof

IM actually has the Needham schemeavailable(doh!),but I'm not sure if
any of these are workable for mid 1950s. I've got the RI leased URTX
versions and the PCX "Hormel" versions, but these cars are obviously
wrong as far as I can see (the Wathers GA car is closer)

Any thoughts?
Stefan Lerche'
Duncan, BC


Barrett Hopper color photo

hoghead32 <buckfiveoh@...>
 

Just over a year ago, I asked this group for information concerning
the Barrett hopper cars. Use the search engine on this site to review
that discussion.

I have posted a color photo of this Barrett hopper in the Photo File
section under "hoghead32". The photo was taken by Robert D. Hess in
April, 1960. Taken at Delta, Pa., it no doubt is hauling slate
granules from the Funkhouser Quarry [GAF] at nearby Slate Hill, Pa.

Thanks, Bob, for sharing your photo with us.

Mike Buckelew [hoghead32]


GATX 1961 & 66 "Manual"s

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

I have as yet not managed to dredge up a photocopy of the 1961 GATX Tank Car Manual. But working from a photocopy of the 1966 version, I wonder how many of the drawings are suitable to STMFC's era - i.e. when were these built?

Is it possible to date these drawings (or - more important - the date of the cars built to them?):
p.88 - ICC 103-W 10000 gallons non-insulated
p.89 - ICC 103-W 10000 gallons insulated
p.91 - ICC 103A-W 7000 gallons non-insulated
p.9? - ICC 103A-N-W 8000 gallons non-insulated
p.94 - ICC 103AL-W 10000 gallons insulated
p.96 - ICC 103A-AL-W 10000 gallons non-insulated
p.98 - ICC 103B-W 8000 gallons non-insulated
p.100 - ICC 103C-W 8000 gallons non-insulated
p.102 - ICC 103D-W 8000 gallons 2 compartments non-insulated
p.104 - ICC 103E-W 8000 gallons insulated
p.105 - ICC 105A300-W 11000 gallons insulated
p.106 - ICC 105A300-W 55 ton chlorine built to ICC 105A500-W insulated
p.110 - ICC 105A600-W 12600 gallons for Anhydrous Hydrogen chloride insulated
p.111 - ICC 105A200AL-W 10200 gallons insulated

I am quite sure these are completely useless to me for 1946, but wonder about their usefulness for friends modelling 1952 and 1953.

Thanks to any who can help out on this,

Rob Kirkham


Re: End Sill Brake Hose Hanger

Jim & Lisa Hayes <jimandlisa97225@...>
 

The brake hose hanger included with some Sunshine kits is a different style
than the Kadee type. Looked at from the side, the Sunshine hanger looks like
a hollow triangle extending about a foot beyond the end sill. I'd like to
see this part available in a break-resistant material. It would be another
step forward in accuracy for us rivet counters.



Jim Hayes

Portland Oregon


Re: End Sill Brake Hose Hanger

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

This is a timely subject that has my attention as we speak.

To my knowledge, only two suppliers produce brake hoses *with hangers*: Kadee and Bowser (Cal-Scale). The latter can be purchased in either plastic or brass, and is apparently a new reissued item in their catalogue. I have not yet seen them.

PSC produces brake hoses, but no hangers that I can find. No supplier packages hangers for separate sale.

I have used the Kadees with their fine hangers for some years.

More and more modelers are removing (or not installing) the magnetic glad hands on their couplers. This alone makes the easily-perceived see-through 'space' below the couplers quite empty, a visual defect that has in turn motivated wholesale brake hose installation among many of us who have been otherwise in the past not been overly inclined to do so. The resulting effect is great.

However (however...), in the ordinary handling of these cars in routine careful operations, these plastic hoses simply do not stand up, and I am constantly finding them broken scattered along the right of way (just like the prototype :-)). Frustration can arise pretty fast because the hoses break off, leaving a stub in the hanger- which of course is then no longer usable. I have currently suspended repairs on these cars, and I currently have far too many fine cars with broken-off brake hose stubs.

The ideal would be brass or at least Delrin hoses, with either plastic or brass hangers . The Kadee mounts are pretty fine (as mentioned). The Cal Scale mounts are as yet unknown (to me), although a respected colleague has opined that 'if these were the mounts originally produced by Cal Scale [or Bowser] some years ago, they at that time did not look very good'.

Denny



--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Offal is as offal does . . .

Peter Weiglin
 

Clark Propst wrote --

"Doug Harding has made a couple of convincing gon loads. They were
featured in his packinghouse presentation."


Yes, and Doug may dive in here. But in a post-presentation conversation, Doug mentioned that the "blood and guts" gondola load was painted using paint colors from the "Military Minature" shelf. Yes, they do assume that a modeler would want to replicate wounds correctly. So, there's a source for the correct paint colors.

Doug's consultant was the military-modeling son of a well-known California railroad modeler whom I will not identify here, for his own security.

Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH


Accuracy of Con-Cor Produce or "Watermelon" car?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Hi:

Has anyone ever compared the accuracy of the Con-Cor Produce/Watermelon car against a prototype ACL ventilated boxcar in the 17000 - 18999 series?

Thanks,
KL

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