Date   

Re: Ancient Tank Car Parts (is parts, is parts, is parts etc.)

Richard Hendrickson
 

Fellow Prisoners,

Going through the ACF book this weekend - blissfully
ignorant of the turmoil I caused with my questions of
last week - I couldn't help but notice, once again, the
sheer variety of tank car shapes and sizes. We've only
scratched the surface with the handful of accurate kits
that are on the market....a new tank car kit seems to hit
the shelves only once every decade, or so it seems....
Damn, Shawn, the glass is only half full. In the past five years we've
only gotten 10K ICC-103Ws from RC, 8K and 10K Type 27s from L-L, and 8K and
10K Type 27s from IM. And more and different models are coming soon -
trust me. Before that, we had, let's see, tank cars from Tichy and Athearn
(no prototypes) and Walthers and Mantua (urp, gag). So what's with this
sour note about "once every decade"? You remind me of my wife's favorite
mantra: God grant me patience - and I want it RIGHT NOW! Seriously...

....what can we do with
the various kits that now exist? Take, for example, the
underframes from the P2K, Red Caboose, and Tichy kits.
Can they be used as a starting point to make any other
kind of tank car? Can the tanks themselves, or even the
domes, be swapped around to create something new but
prototypical?
Yes, yes, and yes. We've already talked about the Tichy/IM kitbash to
produce models of the War Emeregency USG-A class cars; I know this works
because I've already done one. And though I haven't tried it, I think
Tichy's underframe combined with an 8K IM tank will make a pretty plausible
model of the 8K cars built by SSC in sizeable numbers for NATX in the
1920s. The AC&F tanks modeled by IM are quite close in design and
dimensions to the tanks of the same size built in the 1930s/'40s by GATC,
so it should be possible to do some underframe mods and model the GATC cars
of that era. Athearn's "chemical" tank can be shortened (getting rid of
the grotesquely oversize valve casing) and made into a tank for an
insulated 1CC-103/ICC-104, if a suitable insulated dome is fabricated for
it.

What part, or parts, would be needed to
open up some kitbashing opportunities?
We can do a whole lot with what we already have (except for lettering, and
I'm working on that). All it takes is some time. So many models, so
little time. Meanwhile, I've got several models to finish for magazine
articles I'm already committed to. But if you want to have a go at any of
the ideas outlined above, I can scan photos and suggest ways of going about
it.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Re: Ratios of Home Road vs. Foreign Roads

T. C. Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Most of you know that I'm totally involved with the compilation of Pullman
data, almost to the exclusion of all else. But I do have a set of three
freight logs that I'll never have time to analyze, so I'm willing to pass
them on to someone on this list who's interested enough to actually _do_
something with them.

They are: three Santa Fe "Record of Freight Trains and Cars Through
Terminals" ledgers, completely filled out, from 1951, 1952 and 1953. The
covers are scorched, so someone obviously rescued them from a fire. Richard
and I sat here in my studio one night and made a bit of sense of them, and
they seemed to cover transfer runs in the Joplin, MO area between the Santa
Fe and the KCS, if I recall correctly. Listed are train number, date,
conductor's name, and for every car, the car number, owning road, lading,
origin, and destination. Everything is handwritten, so it will take some
effort to decipher it all, but it can be done.

I don't want anything for them except the promise that the recipient will do
his best to extract the data from them. Please contact me off-list if you're
seriously interested.

Tom Madden

tgmadden@worldnet.att.net


Re: Ratios of Home Road vs. Foreign Roads

Dana and Larry Kline <klinelarrydanajon@...>
 

<Larry Kline wrote: Photographic or other documentation is the best approach
to determining the ratio of home road and foreign road cars.?>

<And Dave Nelson replied: Beg to differ. Photos will almost always show a
small portion -usually that portion closest to the locomotive. Far better
evidence, while hard to come by, are conductors books, interchange logs, and
yard jumbos. >

The _other documentation_ mentioned in my earlier post certainly includes
conductors books, etc. I would be very happy to have them. So far the only
info of this type that I have found is from the 1970s, and I am left with
photos, videos, the Copeland Reports, ICC commodity reports and the info in
the WM Historical Society's book _Working on the WM_ as sources of
information about steam era merchandise trains on the WM Cumberland to
Connellsville line.

I agree that photos and videos tend to show only the front of the train, but
it seems to me that there are at least two other sources of sampling bias
with photos. 1) Trains run around the clock, but photos are usually taken
during the daylight hours, and 2) some photo locations are much more
accessible and/or more photogenic than others.

The WM photos and videos I have collected sometimes show all or a
substantial part of the train, especially at Helmsteader's curve where Bill
Price frequently shot slides and videos. On the other hand, Bowest Yard,
the location I am modeling, was out of the way, and seldom photographed. In
addition, panoramic photos of the yard at Bowest were possible only by
climbing a wooded hillside. As a result, I don't have any steam era photos
of the cars in the yard, only the usual engine shots.

<Dave Nelson also wrote: I don't recall ever seeing an cycle time numbers.
I think it would be
interesting. But then I'm a data head.>

My one car turn per month was off the top of my head, and low for the early
1950s. An article in the Jan 7, 1950 Railway Age gives the following numbers
for October 1949: All car types, 19.87 days, boxcars 13.94 days, gons
23.63 days and hoppers 36.89 days. The gon and hopper numbers were higher
than usual because of steel and coal strikes. For 1952 there were
approximately 36.4 million car loadings and 2.1 million cars so there were
17.3 turns per year, or 21.1 days per turn. The info in the 1989 edition of
John Armstrong's _The Railroad, What It Is, What It Does_ indicates 25.3
days per car turn.

Larry Kline


Re: Ancient Tank Cars

ajferguson@...
 

--- In STMFC@y..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@o...> wrote:
Are you volunteering to build a real HO scale
underframe for this model. If, in fact, a real underframe is
being contemplated, then it should take the form of molding patterns
for
resin parts which could be combined with the PSC tank. I would be
delighted to collaborate on such a project, and will see that
appropriate
artwork is created for decal lettering.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520
Richard:
I would be delighted to help make the decals happen. I have modified a
Intermountain 8000 gal type 27 and created the artwork and printed
decals for a NSOX 352(North Star Oil) tank car.(written up in CRM) For
larger runs I've worked with Railgraphics ( CNR 1956 piggyback
trailer) and Microscale (CNR cab unit supplement).
I am no expert on tank cars. Canadian tank cars were different than
American but there was a good deal of cross fertilization. I have a
vested interest in seeing some progress towards models of tank cars of
the era that this list is about.
A project like this is about breaking down barriers. If we all do a
little we end up with a whole.
Allen Ferguson
Black Cat Publishing


test message

Bill Welch <bwelch@...>
 

This is a test message to see if I am signed onto the steam era freight car list. Mike Brock has been trying to get me signed on with many frustrations.

If I am on, greetings to all of my friends!

If at least one of you can respond I would apreciate it.


Bill 'Welch <bwelch@uucf.org>
Associate Minister, Unitarian Universalist Congregation of Fairfax
P.O. Box 130 Oakton VA 22124 www.uucf.org
Telephone 703 281-4230 Fax 703 281-5399


Re: Ancient Tank Car Parts (is parts, is parts, is parts etc.)

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D. <smithbf@...>
 

Garth wrote:

As Richard has pointed out a number of times, the Tichy tank with the
small dome can be placed on the Type 27 underframe to give us a fair
representation of some cars built during WWII. Richard has promised for
several years to do the conversion and write it up, but has apparently
been trapped by mundane non-railroad activities, like putting a roof
over his head (only important if it protects his trains).
Richard, Garth,

I took a quick look at the intermountain type 27 unterframe and the Tichy
tank. It looks very doable - perhaps even "quick". Can you point me in
the directions of photographs, drawings, measurements to do this? In
particular, I would like to see the "cradle" area supporting the tank.

Richard - don't want to step on your toes if you're planning on writing
this up...I'll be happy to see how it goes and send you what I cobble
together for review/critique as an aid in developing your article

Happy Rails
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith V.M.D., Ph.D.
Scott-Ritchey Research Center
334-844-5587, 334-844-5850 (fax)
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/~smithbf/

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy" - Benjamin Franklin
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Re: PRKX on the SunVal

Jeff English
 

This is fabulous news! I never knew anything at all about what
PRKX reefers looked like, but now have a huge clue. Westbound
empties on the Rutland in a 3-month period in 1942:

PRKX 600
PRKX 616
PRKX 651
PRKX 654
PRKX 676
PRKX 693
PRKX 697
PRKX 709
PRKX 709
PRKX 709
PRKX 710
PRKX 712
PRKX 714
PRKX 718
PRKX 721
PRKX 725
PRKX 728
PRKX 753
PRKX 753
PRKX 756
PRKX 766
PRKX 772
PRKX 779
PRKX 781
PRKX 791
PRKX 800

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@rpi.edu

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Test...again

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Another Test


PRKX on the SunVal

Earl Tuson
 

This past weekend, I had the pleasure of meeting Dwight Smith, formerly
associated with the B&M, Springfield Terminal, and Conway Scenic Railroads.
From February of 1952 until the Suncook Valley Railroad's demise in December of
that year, he also lived a very short distance from that line's Allenstown
station, keenly aware of it's operations, helping to document its history in
various ways, and even commuting to the B&M's Concord offices on a folding
chair in the SV's baggage compartment on days his wife wanted to use the
company car!
Upon questioning him about the line's customers at that time, among other
tidbits, he stated that a grain dealer in Pittsfield, NH, regularly received
loaded cars from the Park & Pollard Company of Buffalo, NY. This is the same
entity as the P&P Car line, reporting marks PRKX. Dwight stated that these
cars were refurbished ex-MDT wood reefers, which Roger Hinman's recent article
corroborates, now intended for grain service.
While the 7/31 ORER lists 4 series of what are obviously not (at least) MDT
"M4" design cars, the 1/40 ORER shows series 600-699 and 700-799, 200 cars
total, with the 10/51 adding series 800-899, (cars respectively now: 31, 23,
55, total 109,) all with MDT-like dimensions, excepting the fact that only an
IL for bulkheads collapsed is reported.
To get to the point of this now long winded message, I'm unable to find
among my resources at home any photographic record of PRKX ex-MDT cars. Has
anyone ever seen pictures of these cars? I'm sitting here wondering if they
bought old reefers so that they could load the grain through the hatches. I
can imagine them quite suitable for grain service, with those tight reefer
doors, and low initial investment due to their second hand status. With a 40
ton capacity, and 2516 cuft and 2598 cuft (800 series) of volume, they would
tare out prior to cubing out (wheat: 120768 and 124704 lbs lading if overloaded
to volumetric capy.)

Earl Tuson

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/


Re: Ancient Tank Cars

thompson@...
 

Tom Madden wrote:
I take it I'm supposed to jump in at this point. Tony, if this project
progresses from a jovial exchange into something more concrete, we can talk
about specifics at Monrovia or Pleasanton next month.
Better make it Pleasanton, as I will be in London the weekend of the meet
in Monrovia.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Rutland Car Works MDT kits

Jeff English
 

Ted Culotta <ted@electroneconomy.com> wrote:

I assume Jeff English will answer this, but I've sent it to everyone since
I'm probably not the only party interested in the response.

Rutland Car Works is selling a resin kit (HO scale) for an MDT reefer
series built between 1911 and 1917 for the NYC (series 155000-155999 and
156000-156999), LS&MS (series 145000-145999) and Michigan Cental (series
16000-16249). These were truss rod cars with 5-foot door openings and
four hinges on either side of the door. My question is whether anyone
knows if these were still running in 1947 and if so, in what quantities?
The number series for the cars changed when they became MDT cars.
Actually Roger Hinman is the MDT expert and a subscriber to
FCL (I don't know if he's on STMFC, so I'm copying FCL on this
reply).
The RCS kit is either an M1 or M2 in Roger's terminology of
MDT reefers. The Rutland had cars that were identical when new,
hence the motivation on RCS' part. The Rutland cars were still in
revenue service in the immediate postwar period, but I would
hazard to guess that the MDTs were either gone or rebuilt to
something visually dissimilar (but I don't recall any MDT rebuild
programs, so that's an even more hazardous guess).

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@rpi.edu

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---------------------------------------------------------------


Re: USRA composite gons

Jeff English
 

"Tim O'Connor" <timoconnor@mediaone.net>

so if NYC operated the containers, I can't imagine why
they wouldn't load them into any available gondola.
My impression has been that gons in NYC's container service
were specifically assigned to that, i.e. that random gons in general
service were not normally loaded with containers.
Now, I could be wrong about the above, but if we assume for
the moment that I'm correct, then the next question would be
whether NYC put any Greenville gons into container assignments.
I'll check that in the class books next time I get a chance.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff English Troy, New York
Proto:64 Classic Era Railroad Modeling
englij@rpi.edu

| R U T L A N D R A I L R O A D |
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---------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Ancient Tank Car Parts (is parts, is parts, is parts etc.)

Shawn Beckert
 

Garth wrote:

As Richard has pointed out a number of times, the
the Tichy tank with the small dome can be placed
on the Type 27 underframe to give us a fair
representation of some cars built during WWII.
How did I miss out on that? I've got about a dozen
of those Tichy kits in the closet, which I've been
afraid to even look at since I found out there was
no prototype for them. I know that they can be bashed
into some kind of war-emergency cars, but I'm still
waiting for Richard to finish the second half of THAT
magazine article. Doggone it Richard, let ME come up
there and chase the deer out of Sandra's rose garden;
you sit down and write!

Seriously, one bright note (for me anyway) is that
you can take the 60" dome from the Tichy detail pack
and graft it onto the IM Type-27 tank, thus reproducing
Shell Chemicals' fleet of Type-27's, which all had this
feature. That's an easy kitbash, at least. And since
one of the "home points" for those cars was at Martinez,
California on the Espee, all the more reason to do several!

Shawn Beckert


Rutland Car Works MDT kits

Ted Culotta <ted@...>
 

I assume Jeff English will answer this, but I've sent it to everyone since
I'm probably not the only party interested in the response.

Rutland Car Works is selling a resin kit (HO scale) for an MDT reefer series
built between 1911 and 1917 for the NYC (series 155000-155999 and
156000-156999), LS&MS (series 145000-145999) and Michigan Cental (series
16000-16249). These were truss rod cars with 5-foot door openings and four
hinges on either side of the door. My question is whether anyone knows if
these were still running in 1947 and if so, in what quantities? The number
series for the cars changed when they became MDT cars.
Thanks.
Ted

------------------------------
Ted Culotta
Electron Economy
t: 408-597-3233
f: 408-873-3279
e: ted@electroneconomy.com
w: www.electroneconomy.com


Test

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Another Test


Re: Ancient Tank Car Parts (is parts, is parts, is parts etc.)

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Shawn:

As Richard has pointed out a number of times, the Tichy tank with the
small dome can be placed on the Type 27 underframe to give us a fair
representation of some cars built during WWII. Richard has promised for
several years to do the conversion and write it up, but has apparently
been trapped by mundane non-railroad activities, like putting a roof
over his head (only important if it protects his trains). I am sure
there are many other possibilities. What is lacking is shared
information. Richard noted recently that the magazines generally don't
want articles unless there is a kit to go with them, but perhaps the
Hawkins-Wider CYC would be a good venue for prototype photos and
thoughts on kitbashing. A possibility, Richard? Others?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

"Beckert, Shawn" wrote:

...Since a new tank car kit seems to hit the shelves only
once every decade, or so it seems, what can we do with
the various kits that now exist? Take, for example, the
underframes from the P2K, Red Caboose, and Tichy kits.
Can they be used as a starting point to make any other
kind of tank car? Can the tanks themselves, or even the
domes, be swapped around to create something new but
prototypical? What part, or parts, would be needed to
open up some kitbashing opportunities ....


Ancient Tank Car Parts (is parts, is parts, is parts etc.)

Shawn Beckert
 

Fellow Prisoners,

Going through the ACF book this weekend - blissfully
ignorant of the turmoil I caused with my questions of
last week - I couldn't help but notice, once again, the
sheer variety of tank car shapes and sizes. We've only
scratched the surface with the handful of accurate kits
that are on the market.

Since a new tank car kit seems to hit the shelves only
once every decade, or so it seems, what can we do with
the various kits that now exist? Take, for example, the
underframes from the P2K, Red Caboose, and Tichy kits.
Can they be used as a starting point to make any other
kind of tank car? Can the tanks themselves, or even the
domes, be swapped around to create something new but
prototypical? What part, or parts, would be needed to
open up some kitbashing opportunities?

I'm afraid if we don't come up with some way to stretch
the capabilities of the kits we already have, we'll have
to sit and wait for whatever the manufacturers come up
with. Do we have any recourse on this? Your input, please.

Shawn Beckert


Re: Ancient Tank Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

Tony T., threating to become a patternmaker, writes:
I fully appreciate the concept that we make something moldable, though I
have no expertise in doing so. I will make a styrene version (on the
assumption that the tank interior is a more convenient and effective, since
larger, place to put weight). Any ideas on how best to make said underframe
so as to be more readily moldable would be gratefully received.

I take it I'm supposed to jump in at this point. Tony, if this project
progresses from a jovial exchange into something more concrete, we can talk
about specifics at Monrovia or Pleasanton next month.
Gee, Tom, that wasn't my intention. Furthest thing from my mind, actually.
However, now that you've volunteered....

I won't be in Monrovia, but let's all talk at Pleasanton.

Richard H. Hendrickson
Ashland, Oregon 97520


Test

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Test


Re: Ancient Tank Cars

T. C. Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

Tony T., threating to become a patternmaker, writes:
I fully appreciate the concept that we make something moldable, though I
have no expertise in doing so. I will make a styrene version (on the
assumption that the tank interior is a more convenient and effective, since
larger, place to put weight). Any ideas on how best to make said underframe
so as to be more readily moldable would be gratefully received.

I take it I'm supposed to jump in at this point. Tony, if this project
progresses from a jovial exchange into something more concrete, we can talk
about specifics at Monrovia or Pleasanton next month.

Tom M.

181521 - 181540 of 182098