Date   

Narrow gauge Gramps tanks cars

Bill Weiss
 

This is one for all the narrow minded folks out there :>)

Did the narrow gauge, frameless tank cars always have the Gramps name
painted in the large gray letters on the sides? If they didn't about
what year did they start adding the name to the sides?

Bill


Re: Numbers of '44 AAR cars, and others (UNCLASSIFIED)

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 8, 2006, at 8:55 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

My question is till, what about the vast numbers of later '44 AAR
types, that
did not make it onto Ed Hawkins' list. What were their numbers?
Elden,
I have compiled rosters of various 10'-6" IH postwar AAR box cars built
from 1948 and later with various versions of Improved Dreadnaught Ends
(IDE) used after the 4/4 arrangement. Some of the rosters have been
published in Railmodel Journal, including cars with so-called "dartnot"
ends (see Oct. 1990 RMJ) and the late-version R+3/4 IDE used beginning
in 1955. I have also compiled a roster of AAR box cars with the earlier
R+3/4 IDE (i.e., main corrugations having the rolling pin appearance),
however, I have yet to publish it. I'm considering an article on this
subject in Railway Prototype Cyclopedia. If not there, perhaps in
Railmodel Journal. There were a few other AAR-style box cars using
other proprietary ends, such as the AC&F 4/4 ends used on several
series of Reading, M-K-T, and DT&I box cars.

Roads having the early-version R+3/4 IDE include AA, ACL, BAR (plug
door insulated box cars), C&EI, C&S, C&WC, CB&Q, CNJ, CP, DT&I, Erie,
FW&D, GM&O, GN, GTW, IC, I-GN, ITC, LV, MP, NH (plug doors), NJI&I, NP,
NYC, P&LE, PRR, RDG, Soo Line, SP&S, StLB&M, T&P, UP, WAB, and WM. Some
of these cars had overhanging roofs. Quite a few models representing
these prototype cars have been offered by Branchline Trains. My count
of prototype AAR box cars having early-version R+3/4 IDE is about
48,000 and the cars were built from 1948 to 1954. In addition to the
above list, there were also the unique "box cars" for carrying
cryogenic gases (see RP CYC Vol. 14), although these cars all had small
doors in the ends, roof hatches, and were classified as tank cars.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


SP B-50-12 Boxcars and the availability of information

Peter Weiglin
 

Looking at the following message:

= = =
Fred Mullins wrote:
I would like to learn more about this car. When was it rebuilt and
from what class of car? When did the rebuilding take place and how
long did these cars stay on the rails?
It may not surprise you, Fred, that these were rebuilt from
Class B-50-12. Those were USRA single-sheathed cars, of which SP
received 1000 units. They were rebuilt starting in the late summer of
1949 and continuing for a couple of years. Roughly 650 were rebuilt and
all other survivors either went to MOW service or were scrapped. They
lasted into the 1960s.

also can anybody point me to some photos of these cars? I'm looking
for end detail shots as well.
Thanks for any help!
I'm not aware if there are many photos on line. The Lee
Gautreaux site is one option (if you don't know the URL, please ask).
If you want a reference to a book which has thirty or so photos of the
cars, including the rebuilding process, please ask. I don't want to be
accused of "MAKING YOU BUY A BOOK."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...

= = =

and this one --

Posted by: "benjaminfrank_hom" b.hom@... benjaminfrank_hom
Date: Fri Dec 8, 2006 10:36 am ((PST))

= = =

Paul Lyons wrote:
"There is an article and and series of photos about the re-building of
these cars in a long past Mainline Modeler. I do not know the issue."

"Southern Pacific B-50-12-A", Pat O'Boyle, Mainline Modeler, October
1992, page 62. Popped right up when I did a Title text search for "B-
50-12" at http://index.mrmag.com .

Ben Hom

= = =

Comment:

It seems that those who are willing to help, such as Tony and Ben, are forced to point, over and over again, to the standard references in the hobby.

While Fred has the right idea, and did ask about books, there are also those folks who somehow expect to find the fruits of others' research labor, furnished on line, for free, and delivered by tomorrow morning please.

The book that Tony was reluctant to describe is Southern Pacific Freight Cars, Volume 4, Box Cars, published by Signature Press and written by . . . Tony himself. Nice plan in there too, on Page 174.

How do I know that? I BOUGHT ONE! Paid for it and everything. (I also bought Volumes 1, 2, and 3 of the series.) Those of us who know how much effort Tony puts into these works will tell you that they are cheap at the price.

While everyone starts out with good intentions of helpfulness, over a period of time during which many requests (and not a few demands) are made, those who have done the research can get a little testy when their work is taken for granted.

Fred Mullins has the right attitude, but you have to ask yourself about the manners, presumptuousness, and downright cloddishness of those who created a "gimme" climate in which Tony was chided for "Making you buy a book".

These guys have every right to remain silent when someone asks for help, but they do not. Some knowledgeable folks are coming close to "burnout" dealing with the human chalices ("Fill me! Fill me!") who have confused helpfulness with obligation.

Come on, folks; when someone suggests that a questioner buy a book for reference, the proper reply is NOT, "What? Spend my good money for what I should be able to get here, free?"; and also NOT, "There he goes, plugging his products again."

Tony nor anyone else should ever be inhibited from suggesting that a pertinent book be bought, regardless of the authorship.

There! The glue on my X29 should be about dry by now . . .

Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH


Team tracks that look like private sidings?

Tom Campbell
 

Hello STMFC List-

I've been chewing on a bit of research for some time and I'm coming
out of long time lurker status for guidance.

I've been studying Sacramento's `R' Street corridor for a few years
now. In the transition era, the `R' Street corridor was a
significant part of Sacramento's switching district and had both the
Southern Pacific and Western Pacific interchanging and serving
businesses here. There were even guest appearances by the Sacramento
Northern from time to time.

My research has been pretty tightly focused, but it has led me down
some interesting paths. Your definition of 'interesting' may vary
<g>.

One of the `finds' is a 1936-1937 California Railroad Commission
(CRC) case that deals specifically with `R' Street. After reading
and rereading the testimony (and supplemental materials), the case
has taught me a great deal about reciprocal switching agreements
among other things. Mostly, that I completely misunderstood what a
reciprocal switching agreement was <g>.

CRC case 4066 dealt with a WP complaint that the SP refused to switch
cars from the interchange at 4th & `R' to two sidings on `R' Street
under a cheap switching tariff ($2.70 a car- which even in the `30s
wasn't enough to pay for the switch) as part of the reciprocal
switching agreement. SP defended itself by claiming these sidings
were team tracks and not private sidings and, as part of the
railroad's own terminal facilities, ineligible for the tariff. SP
contended they were team tracks because the railroad owned the tracks
and the sidings did see a variety of consignees pick up deliveries
there. WP wanted the definition of `private siding' or `team track'
to follow more from the track's actual usage and thought that at
least on one of the sidings its use was primarly as a private
delivery track.

The sidings were both adjacent (right up to the loading doors) to
businesses on `R'. On one of them, nearly all the shipments went to
the business next to the siding (Valley Wholesale Grocery), but SP
was able to prove that at least a few shipments were picked up by
other concerns. One of the exhibits in the case file is an 18 month
record of every car that was delivered to this track. Out of 170
cars, about four were for consignees other than Valley Wholesale.

The other siding was originally built circa 1910 as a private
delivery track for a storage company; however, this original business
later abandoned their siding. At that point the siding's ownership
fell back to SP, and it was designated as a public team track. There
was ample evidence that this second siding was used as a team track,
the adjacent business that moved in later only rarely taking delivery
from this track.

The commission decided that the WP did not prove either of the tracks
was `private' but they did not spell out what definition of `private'
or `team' tracks they used as a benchmark.

I've been broadening my research in an attempt to put this case in
context, but does the list think this `team track that looks like a
private siding' situation was common? From what I've seen, it seems
like it was.

Did the definition of `team track' later (at least by 1950, my
planned modeling date) get locked down legally so that use rather
than ownership was more of a determining factor for tariff
considerations? I do plan on tracking down the 1950 tariff to see if
a team track definition is spelled out in the tariff itself – it
certainly wasn't in 1936.

I'm curious to see if anyone knows of any similar cases elsewhere in
the country.

Thanks for any comments, and certainly suggestions for books and
other research materials/leads that will help me have a better
understanding of this.

Tom Campbell
Elk Grove CA


Re: Numbers of '44 AAR cars, and others (UNCLASSIFIED)

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Hi Elden:

I just sent you some post-group info to your ACE address. If you would like it sent to another, let me know.

KL


Extra HO Trucks for sale

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

I have a few extra pairs of HO trucks available.
I have 5 pair of P2K B-1 National Trucks for $2.00 a pair,
2 pair of ECW Dalman 2-level trucks with Reboxx wheels for $2.00 a pair
also. Please don't ask me to remove the Reboxx wheels, I'll probably break
the trucks,
1 pair of metal B-1 National trucks probably Cap Line or On Track, I don't
know. $3.00
Shipping to be detemined, $15 takes the whole lot with USPS Priority Mail
thrown in. Please contact me off list if interested.

Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: Western Maryland Hoppers

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

Hi Mark,

It has been a really long time. I have seen lots of stuff on these cars. There
is a WM yahoo group that is probably your best bet for detailed info.

CJ Riley



--- mvlandsw <mvlandsw@...> wrote:

I am detailing some Stewart fishbelly WM hoppers. Does anyone know
the dimensions of the channel end supports and the corner post angles?
Are there any pictures or plans available that show the arrangement of
the brake fittings? Thanks, Mark Vinski




____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index


The Keystone Modeler - December 2006

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

The December issue of The Keystone Modeler is online at
http://www.prrths.com/Keystone%20Modeler/Keystone_Modeler.htm

Here's What I'm Working On
1:48 Harbor Scene by Hugo Pallesen

Model Review – Walthers Platinum Line N6B Cabin Car by Jim Hunter

Making Bowser Better - Modeling the H21 by Bruce Smith

Modeling the PRR's Flat Car Fleet – Part 10 The F34 by Elden Gatwood

Happy Holidays!


Ben Hom


Re: SOUTHERN PACIFIC B-50-12A REBUILT BOX CAR

woodyp48
 

FYI: pat o'boyle, aka pacific limited, who wrote the article, also
imported these cars in 5 versions back in the day. photos also
appeared in his ads in mainline modeler in that time frame.

woody grosdoff


Re: B&O Class W-1A Truck Identification

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

I would defer to Richard on his truck identification here.


Yet B&O also had some proprietary truck designs that research is only
starting to uncover. Examples would be the Washburn truck and the
Tatum XLT truck. Until recently, they looked like plain old
archbars to everyone.

B&O also was nuts about recycling trucks (and other hardware) in
their rebuilding and new construction programs. So trucks out of era
would show up on B&O cars. Examples: the M-26 (plain) boxcars
inherited Tatum XLT trucks from scrapped hopper cars. O-41 gondola
cars (I think, I'm winging it here) got BR&P trucks. The surviving
gondola off the West Virginia northern stored at Tunnelton, WV is an
example of this.














--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Dec 6, 2006, at 3:16 PM, benjaminfrank_hom wrote:

Finsishing up an article for the November-December issue of The
B&O
Modeler on Class W-1 and subclass hoppers and came across some odd
trucks. I've uploaded a detail photo in the STMFC files section
titled "B&O 334344 Class W-1A Truck Detail.JPG":
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files

Anyone know the type of this truck? Thanks in advance!
Ben, it's an arch bar truck with a Pilcher trussed side frame. See
the
1922 Car Builders' Cyclopedia, p. 628.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Blister panels for Bowser hoppers

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Marty McGuirk wrote:
"So, you're saying the Bowser car is too low to represent the PRR
rebuilt prototype? That may be good news for me, since I want to use
these to model a Central Vermont blister side hopper -- and the CV
cars were close in over dimensions (and in some details, particularly
the double end support brackets) to the PRR GL class."

Yes. Height from top chord to rails was 10 ft for Class GLA, 10 ft 8
in for the Class GLF cars.


Ben Hom


Re: SOUTHERN PACIFIC B-50-12A REBUILT BOX CAR

Paul Lyons
 

Amazing Ben(tongue in cheek), and no one had to buy a book!

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: b.hom@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 10:32 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: SOUTHERN PACIFIC B-50-12A REBUILT BOX CAR


Paul Lyons wrote:
"There is an article and and series of photos about the re-building of
these cars in a long past Mainline Modeler. I do not know the issue."

"Southern Pacific B-50-12-A", Pat O'Boyle, Mainline Modeler, October
1992, page 62. Popped right up when I did a Title text search for "B-
50-12" at http://index.mrmag.com .

Ben Hom



________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


Re: Blister panels for Bowser hoppers

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., <mjmcguirk@...> wrote:

Ben,

Thanks for the reply,

Yes, I saw the model in the Keystone Modeler -- great resource by
the way!

So, you're saying the Bowser car is too low to represent the PRR
rebuilt prototype? That may be good news for me, since I want to use
these to model a Central Vermont blister side hopper -- and the CV
cars were close in over dimensions (and in some details, particularly
the double end support brackets) to the PRR GL class.

By the way, is there an easy way to contact Stan and order the
parts from him?
Marty,

Stan has not entered the computer age. You can contact him at:

Stan Rydarowicz
165 Manchester Ave.
Youngstown, Ohio 44509

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: SOUTHERN PACIFIC B-50-12A REBUILT BOX CAR

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Fred Mullins wrote:
Tony,
Thanks for the response. I guess I shoulld have figured that being a
"a" sub class what they were rebuilt from. But I know very little
about the SP.
If someone could give me both a website address and a name of books
that has info I would appreciate it.
I will send you the book reference and website off-list to avoid provoking the whiners on the list.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: SOUTHERN PACIFIC B-50-12A REBUILT BOX CAR

Fred Mullins
 

Tony,
Thanks for the response. I guess I shoulld have figured that being a
"a" sub class what they were rebuilt from. But I know very little
about the SP.
If someone could give me both a website address and a name of books
that has info I would appreciate it.
Thanks
Fred Mullins


Re: SOUTHERN PACIFIC B-50-12A REBUILT BOX CAR

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Paul Lyons wrote:
"There is an article and and series of photos about the re-building of
these cars in a long past Mainline Modeler. I do not know the issue."

"Southern Pacific B-50-12-A", Pat O'Boyle, Mainline Modeler, October
1992, page 62. Popped right up when I did a Title text search for "B-
50-12" at http://index.mrmag.com .


Ben Hom


Re: PS-1 box cars

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but the early CGW PS1s (93000)
(maybe all of those early cars)had sill tabs with rivets like a AAR
car. Also look at the tabs at the lower side ends, where the steps
connect. I wonder if the date for the change to their own underframe
design could be narrowed down by looking at the sill tabs? Curiously,
the AKA PS-0 cars had lower side ends like the later PS1s (no tabs).
Clark Propst
MC IA


Re: Numbers of '44 AAR cars, and others (UNCLASSIFIED)

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE

Tim;

You are correct, it is for Jan 1964, but I mentioned no car types, other than
late PS-1's that would have been produced post-~'55 or so. You are also
correct that there was enormous attrition in the SS and USRA and X29 types,
but my question was really how many non-4/4 End AAR '44 cars were produced.
I know it is enormous (as one could not fail to notice staring at freight
trains for all those years), but I have seen nothing that quantifies that
huge box car type, in print. Is this because few folks on this list are
interested in anything post 1950 or so?












Elden,

According to the ICC's records, the December 31st total Boxcars owned by Class I US RR's between 1955 and 1965 were the following - showing the split of general service vs. special service:

Year . . . Gen'l Serv. . . . Spec. Serv. . . . Total Boxcars
1955 . . . 661,594 . . . . . 57,756 . . . . . . 719,350
1956 . . . 673,747 . . . . . 53,912 . . . . . . 727,569
1957 . . . 685,330 . . . . . 53,624 . . . . . . 738,954
1958 . . . 672,302 . . . . . 52,553 . . . . . . 724,955
1959 . . . 654,718 . . . . . 52,848 . . . . . . 707,566
1960 . . . 637,829 . . . . . 54,900 . . . . . . 692,729
1961 . . . 608,367 . . . . . 56,565 . . . . . . 664,932
1962 . . . 577,106 . . . . . 62,354 . . . . . . 639,460
1963 . . . 545,751 . . . . . 71,611 . . . . . . 617,362
1964 . . . 515,123 . . . . . 81,220 . . . . . . 596,343
1965 . . . 479,201 . . . . 102,884 . . . . . . 582,085

Note: These do not include boxcars owned by the Canadian roads (e.g. CN, CP, PGE, etc.), but do include cars owned by US subsidiaries of those Canadian roads (e.g. GTW, CV, SOO, etc.).

The number of General Service Boxcars peaked in 1957 (for the 1955-65 period), but, after the 1958 recession, the number fell. Between 1961 and 1965, there was a 21.2% decline in General Service Boxcars - most of them probably being the older pre-War and pre-Depression cars like the X29's and NYC Steel USRA clones. Many other roads sold and leased back much of their pre-Depression Fleet in the mid-1950's, and by the mid-1960's, those leases were terminated.

Meanwhile, the number of Special Service Boxcars on 12/31/1965 were 81.9% more than they were on 12/31/1961 which may be an indication that newly built boxcars were predominantly special service cars - the average nominal capacity for the national special service boxcar fleet increased from 49.9 tons/car on 12/31/1961 to 58.8 tons/car on 12/31/1965. Some of the increase may have been due to the 1962 revision of standard nominal capacities for a given truck size, but most of that increase should have been due to the new construction of special service boxcars getting "70-ton" trucks.

Any discussion ought to continue of the "Baby Boomers Freight Car Group" at http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/bbfcl/

Tim Gilbert


Here is a table that may violate the list guidelines for discussion, but I
hope those interested can extract the pre-1960 facts, like the numbers of
cars produced. There would have been a very small percentage of these lost
through wreck damage, but certainly the USRA and X29-era cars were going
fast. However, the '32 ARA and later cars were still around at probably 99%
of their original numbers. One interesting fact is that the PRR X43
classes, which total 6,358 cars on that date (a small number having been
scrapped due to wreck damage), is about 1% of the entire US box car fleet.
Ditto for the X31A single door cars. And that would also have been pretty
much true for your 1955 date total for box cars. Those are significant
numbers, and I had not realized just how significant.

Pieter's point about "signature" box cars is certainly true, but even with
the NYC, PRR, B&O and other "single user" box cars extracted, there are still
a LOT of box cars that fail to fall into any of these (but for the late AAR
'44) categories.

Box Car Type Statistics - Jan 1964

Car Type

Number

Percentage of Total

USRA Single-Sheathed Box Cars and other SS cars

?

<1% (<6,000)

PRR X29

2,125

0.3%

PRR X31A single door

6,404

1.1%

NYC USRA steel cars

?

?

ARA '32 Type

14,180

2.34%

AAR'37

89,578

14.76%

PRR X37B

1,463

0.25%

AAR '37 Modified (5/5 End)

43,565

7.18%

AAR '44 w/ 4/4 End (10'4" - 10'6" IH)

73,397

12.1%

AAR '44 w/R/3/4 End (10'6" IH)

Includes PRR X43 classes

? total

PRR - 6,358

?

(PRR - ~1.1%)

PS-1 - 40'

75,070

12.38%

PS-1 - 50'

20,332

3.35%

TOTAL

606,623

100%

What do you guys find for your timeframes? What are your breakdowns?

Elden Gatwood

.

<http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=2554753/grpspId=1705169725/msgId= <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=2554753/grpspId=1705169725/msgId=>
58397/stime=1165519597/nc1=3848620/nc2=3848446/nc3=4025373>


Classification: UNCLASSIFIED
Caveats: NONE



Re: SOUTHERN PACIFIC B-50-12A REBUILT BOX CAR

Paul Lyons
 

There is an article and and series of photos about the re-building of these cars in a long past Mainline Modeler. I do not know the issue.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

-----Original Message-----
From: thompson@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, 8 Dec 2006 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] SOUTHERN PACIFIC B-50-12A REBUILT BOX CAR


Fred Mullins wrote:
I would like to learn more about this car. When was it rebuilt and
from what class of car? When did the rebuilding take place and how
long did these cars stay on the rails?
It may not surprise you, Fred, that these were rebuilt from
Class B-50-12. Those were USRA single-sheathed cars, of which SP
received 1000 units. They were rebuilt starting in the late summer of
1949 and continuing for a couple of years. Roughly 650 were rebuilt and
all other survivors either went to MOW service or were scrapped. They
lasted into the 1960s.

also can anybody point me to some photos of these cars? I'm looking
for end detail shots as well.
Thanks for any help!
I'm not aware if there are many photos on line. The Lee
Gautreaux site is one option (if you don't know the URL, please ask).
If you want a reference to a book which has thirty or so photos of the
cars, including the rebuilding process, please ask. I don't want to be
accused of "MAKING YOU BUY A BOOK."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history



________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


Re: Blister panels for Bowser hoppers

mjmcguirk@...
 

Ben,

Thanks for the reply,

Yes, I saw the model in the Keystone Modeler -- great resource by the way!

So, you're saying the Bowser car is too low to represent the PRR rebuilt prototype? That may be good news for me, since I want to use these to model a Central Vermont blister side hopper -- and the CV cars were close in over dimensions (and in some details, particularly the double end support brackets) to the PRR GL class.

By the way, is there an easy way to contact Stan and order the parts from him?

Thanks,

Marty

138441 - 138460 of 196755