Date   

Re: Monon Covered Hopper

Charlie Vlk
 

General Mills has several plants in Chicago. I am not certain they don't have plants elsewhere as well given the diversity of their product line...
perhaps Battle Creek, MI as well????
Charlie Vlk


Re: Freight car end lettering

David Karkoski <karkoskd@...>
 

Thanks for the info Richard



DJK



_____

From: Richard Hendrickson [mailto:rhendrickson@opendoor.com]
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 3:26 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Freight car end lettering



On Dec 12, 2006, at 11:10 AM, David Karkoski wrote:

I do not have a lot of photos of freight car ends and wanted to get
some
clarification on end lettering. Is it typical that the same
information
is presented on both ends or is the information unique to the A and B
end?
Stenciling was the same on both ends.

Are there some common texts that could be applied to the ends in
instances where you have no photos?
Well, some of the mechanical data stenciled on the ends was quite
common, but it depends a great deal on the era you model. For example,
In the 1950s, cars with wrought steel wheels and long-travel truck
springs generally had that information stenciled on them, and in the
late 1940s/early 1950s older cars that had been converted from K to AB
air brake equipment were required to be so stenciled on either the
sides or ends. But different RRs followed somewhat different
practices, and some RRs stenciled information on the ends that other
RRs didn't bother about. Unfortunately, photos of specific cars at
specific dates are the only reliable guide.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Monon Covered Hopper

D. Port Jr.
 

Thanks Mont.

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mont Switzer" <mhts_switzerm@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Monon Covered Hopper


Dan,

I think it was Chicago, but I'm not sure. Someone else on the list
might have better knowledge.

Mont Switzer

"D. Port Jr." <hudson464@verizon.net> wrote:
Hi Mont,

Could you tell me where the General Mills plant was located?

I'm always interested to learn where cars got assigned.

Thanks.
Dan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mont Switzer" <mhts_switzerm@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Monon Covered Hopper

Dan,

Yes, the Monon got these cars in 12-53. I know Athearn worked form
photos on this project and these numbers can get pretty hard to see. By
the
way, 4413 was originally assigned to Genral Mills.

Mont Switzer

"D. Port Jr." <hudson464@verizon.net> wrote:
Just wanted to say thank you to all for the replies I received
about my
question.
It was very helpful.

Mont,

The car number I have 4413 has a NEW 12-55 Date.

Did Athearn get the year wrong?

Thanks for your help.

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mont Switzer" <mhts_switzerm@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Monon Covered Hopper

Dan,

The short answeer is no. The Monon didn't begin loading grain in
covered hoppers until the late 1960's and then only on a limited basis.
Instead the railroad operated a number of boxcars with roof hatches.

Your Athearn car respresents the Monon's first group of 3 bay covered
hoppers. They were built in 12-53 by Pullman Standard and numbered
C.I.L.
4401-4430.

In 1953 three bay covered hoppers were pretty spcialized cars and the
railroad would only have purchased them if had a pre-determined purpose
which was the case. All 30 cars were equipped with vibrators to handle
flour with cars 4401 - 4415 being assigned to General Mills.

The flour business ultimately ended up on airslide cars and the 3 bay
covered hoppers were placed in sand service assinged to Sand Brokers at
Michigan City, IN.

Due to the nature of the products that these cars handled I suspect
they
did not travel far from their midwest ownership and they could always
seen
on line.

An interesting side note concerns the sand cars that moved between
Michigan City, IN and Indianapolis, IN. As I attempted to dupicate Monon
operatons and schedules in HO scale I learned that train scheduling
between
Michigan City branch and Indianapolis branch had the railroad moving
sand
cars between the two points via Monon, IN overnight. This is a good
example
of how model operations can assist us in learning how the prototype
operated.

Mont Switzer





"D. Port Jr." <hudson464@verizon.net> wrote:
Hi everyone,

I have a Athearn PS 2893 Covered Hopper lettered for the Monon.

Did the Monon use them for grain loading?

Thank You.

Dan Port Jr.








---------------------------------
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.






Yahoo! Groups Links








---------------------------------
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your
question on Yahoo! Answers.






Yahoo! Groups Links








---------------------------------
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.






Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: Freight car end lettering

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 12, 2006, at 11:10 AM, David Karkoski wrote:

I do not have a lot of photos of freight car ends and wanted to get some
clarification on end lettering. Is it typical that the same information
is presented on both ends or is the information unique to the A and B
end?
Stenciling was the same on both ends.

Are there some common texts that could be applied to the ends in
instances where you have no photos?
Well, some of the mechanical data stenciled on the ends was quite common, but it depends a great deal on the era you model. For example, In the 1950s, cars with wrought steel wheels and long-travel truck springs generally had that information stenciled on them, and in the late 1940s/early 1950s older cars that had been converted from K to AB air brake equipment were required to be so stenciled on either the sides or ends. But different RRs followed somewhat different practices, and some RRs stenciled information on the ends that other RRs didn't bother about. Unfortunately, photos of specific cars at specific dates are the only reliable guide.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: PE and CGW cars

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Steve,
Red Caboose offered their X29 car stenciled for CGW. Both in original
paint and the 50s simple scheme. Red Caboose applied the 50s lettering
to their new 'patch panel' tooling.

Kadee sells their PS1 in several CGW schemes, the most correct is the
5200 series. The DF cars were maroon with gold lettering Kadee's are
not.

The X29 and PS1 were the most numerous CGW 40ft box cars.
Good luck finding models,
Clark Propst


PE box cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John Hitzeman wrote:
Now that I've dug this info out, here's the scoop on the boxcars.

There were 600 bxcrs, numbered 10000 to 10599. These were all single sheathed, built by Standard Steel Car Co., in 1924. These numbers reflect the 1931 renumbering as do the above water cars.

Pre-1931 numbering shows bxcrs 2741-2899 Class B-50-13, scattered PE numbering but transferred over to SP between 1930 and 1933, renumbered into SP 88185 - 88308

40' Boxcars (1925 roster) as follows;
Car Nos. CAPY Builder New
2382 - 2434 80,000 Mt. Vernon 1910
2500 - 2589 100,000 AC&F 11-1913
2600 - 2699 " P.E. 1918 - 1919
2700 - 2899 " StanSteel 1924
John, I think some of this is a little mixed up. Here's my summary from my Volume 4 on SP box cars. The B-50-13 cars were delivered in March, 1924 as PE 2700-2899 (200 cars). These were never renumbered until transferred to SP in June, 1951, when they received the numbers you cite, SP 88185-88309. A quick look at, say, a 1950 ORER will show you that the PE roster still contained these cars at that date, and the SP roster did not.
The 600 B-50-14 cars, PE 10000-10599, were delivered in June and September, 1924, but the last 200 of them, PE 10400-10599, went to SP on July 1, 1925 as SP 18880-19079. The other 400 cars remained on PE until the survivors were transferred to SP in June, 1951 as SP 19080-19455. Again, these were never renumbered by PE and a check of the 1950 ORER will confirm their status.
The older cars you list had a variety of origins. PE 2600-2699 were Class B-40-5 and went to SP on May 31, 1944; PE 2500-2589 were Class B-50-9 and were transferred to SP in 1945; PE 2382-2434 were inherited from the pre-merger PE in 1910, not built in 1910. They were 36-foot cars, and their dimensions suggest they were probably built before 1900. Like many entries for older PE freight cars, the listing in "Interurbans Special 37" are not to be trusted.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Dare I ask these questions?

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Garth G. Groff wrote:
Friends,

I just received F&C's current catalog sheet (with their buy two boxed
cars, get two free, plus a bagged kit offer).
Garth, so you have a scan of that sheet? Placing it into the files section
would allow others to make use of the deal you described.

Dave Nelson


Atascadero, CA

eabracher@...
 

Anyone living near Atascadero Calif? Please contact me regarding kingdom
Hobbies.

eric


Freight car end lettering

David Karkoski <karkoskd@...>
 

I do not have a lot of photos of freight car ends and wanted to get some
clarification on end lettering. Is it typical that the same information
is presented on both ends or is the information unique to the A and B
end? Are there some common texts that could be applied to the ends in
instances where you have no photos?



David Karkoski


PE and CGW cars

sc279373 <sccooper@...>
 

Wow,great stuff-many thanks to all who have replied,I got a load of
info including how to put a quick look-a-like into service.
I live on an island just off the south coast of England and am probably
the only US modeller here-so I shan't have to face too much criticism.
The era I model is 1950-60 with a little bit of leeway.
Regards
Steve


Re: Dare I ask these questions?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 12, 2006, at 6:04 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

On Dec 12, 2006, at 6:25 AM, Garth G. Groff wrote:
I just received F&C's current catalog sheet (with their buy two boxed
cars, get two free, plus a bagged kit offer). New to their list are #s
7030 and 7031, "AC&F AAR Type 2" tank cars. I've never heard of a
"Type 2" tank. Any comments? Has anyone bought one of these kits?
What gallonage do they represent? Are the underframes the same as
their 8,000 gallon "Type 7"?
Garth,

Steve has some interesting ideas with respect to AC&F tank car
nomenclature. I have not heard anything WRT a "type 2". Maybe
"someone" misinterpreted "type 11" to be "type 2" in roman numerals
<VBG>. I know that after saying that he could find "no schemes other
than PRR" for the type 11 model (called "type 7" by F&C) he has
apparently been supplied with some and these kits are being released
in non-PRR schemes.
The confusing nomenclature here is easily explained especially since
Steve Funaro's grasp of prototype data has always seemed to be, shall
we say, a bit fuzzy. The AC&F Type 11 tank car modeled by F&C was
assigned an ARA (later, AAR) classification of Class II, Class I tank
cars were built before the 1903 MCB rules for tank car construction
took effect; Class IIs were built between 1903 and 1917, when the ARA
(into which the Master Car Builders' Assn. had been absorbed)
extensively revised the regulations; Class III cars were built after
1917. These classifications applied to all tank cars built in North
America, regardless of builder, and had nothing to do with AC&F's or
GATC's "Type" designations, which identified specific designs. Funaro
has apparently confused MCB/ARA classes with types. Without seeing the
catalog sheet, I'd guess that what is described there as an "AAR Type
2" is actually the existing model which represents an 8,000 gal. AC&F
Type 11 (not, as Bruce correctly notes, a Type 7, though that's how F&C
has previously described it). Having been built between 1911 and 1917,
the Type 11s were, in fact, ARA Class II tank cars. Funaro's ignorance
not withstanding, thousands were built for many different owners and
many remained in service through the 1950s and '60s. Also, despite the
tunnel vision of the Pennsy mavens, none were built for the PRR; its
class TM-8 tank cars were purchased second-hand.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Dare I ask these questions?

SUVCWORR@...
 

Garth,

In 1958 there were 2921 X28A on the PRR roster. This number dropped to 349 in 1963 and 7 made it to PC. I doubt these were ever painted for PC.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: ggg9y@virginia.edu
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 12 Dec 2006 7:25 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Dare I ask these questions?


Friends,

I just received F&C's current catalog sheet (with their buy two boxed
cars, get two free, plus a bagged kit offer). New to their list are #s
7030 and 7031, "AC&F AAR Type 2" tank cars. I've never heard of a "Type
2" tank. Any comments? Has anyone bought one of these kits? What
gallonage do they represent? Are the underframes the same as their 8,000
gallon "Type 7"?

They also list an X28A, which is tempting. I went through all my stuff
looking for an article on these cars, but came up with nothing. Can
anyone tell me how many were still in service in 1958?

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff




Yahoo! Groups Links



________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


Re: AC&F type 17/21? hybrid tank car (was Some car images)

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 12, 2006, at 6:37 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

Too cool! This image is labeled "NWX 263206 tank car in fuel service
at Jones Island in Milwaukee, WI. Car was built in 1928, rebuilt in
1937. Photo by Clem Devine, 5-1980."

The tank appears to be a "type 17" (ie the AC&F type 11 with double
rivets). Thus I have a hard time believing that the tank was built
in 1928 <G>. More likely, the older tank was applied to a new
underframe in 1928. Given the date, the underframe should be a type
27, but it has the shorter look of a type 21 frame. Any ideas? Would
the 1937 rebuilding be something like K to AB brakes?

It sure would be interesting to know the history of this car before
CNW...
Bruce is correct that the tank appears to be an AC&F Type 17 and the underframe a Type 21. And it should be noted that Type 21 underframes continued to be built after the Type 27 was introduced in 1927 (there was very little difference between them apart from length). AC&F was still building what were essentially new tank cars of Type 21 design and dimensions as late as 1930.

The "mismatch" of tank with underframe is easily explained. It was relatively easy (and quite common) for existing tanks to be mounted on new underframes, or vice-versa. Sometimes this was done by the tank car builders; for example, I have AC&F builder's photos of new tanks applied in the 1930s to the owner's existing underframes of older design. Owners who had, or had access to, well equipped car shops sometimes carried out this work themselves. And it wasn't unusual for railroads to carry out such tank/underframe swaps on cars that they had wrecked, written off, and paid the owners for. The repaired/rebuilt cars then went into on-line service as fuel or water cars. The C&NW certainly did this, as I have several photos of C&NW MW cars which were obviously second-hand.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: PE and CGW cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Paul Dana wrote:
Slightly longer answer: It would depend on what era you're modeling, since both PE and Chicago Great Western were absorbed into other railroads. Pacific Electric came under Southern Pacific control early on, although it continued to run more or less autonomously for a number of years thereafter. (The problem there is determining at what point it ceased to gain new equipment -- and I'm not sure how many cars it had in the first place -- and at what point the equipment was either retired or repainted into SP.)
Paul, I don't think "SP control" was the issue. The PE was in many ways independently operated, as you say, until the 1950s. The PE freight car fleet "leaked away" to parent SP over decades, but as late as the late 1920s was pretty substantial and was still receiving new cars. It was in the 1950s that most of the active PE freight cars were transferred to SP ownership and, usually, relettered. Information about individual PE car types and their histories is in my series on SP freight cars, so far up to four volumes.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Monon Covered Hopper

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

Dan,

I think it was Chicago, but I'm not sure. Someone else on the list might have better knowledge.

Mont Switzer

"D. Port Jr." <hudson464@verizon.net> wrote:
Hi Mont,

Could you tell me where the General Mills plant was located?

I'm always interested to learn where cars got assigned.

Thanks.
Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mont Switzer" <mhts_switzerm@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 3:24 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Monon Covered Hopper

Dan,

Yes, the Monon got these cars in 12-53. I know Athearn worked form
photos on this project and these numbers can get pretty hard to see. By the
way, 4413 was originally assigned to Genral Mills.

Mont Switzer

"D. Port Jr." <hudson464@verizon.net> wrote:
Just wanted to say thank you to all for the replies I received
about my
question.
It was very helpful.

Mont,

The car number I have 4413 has a NEW 12-55 Date.

Did Athearn get the year wrong?

Thanks for your help.

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mont Switzer" <mhts_switzerm@yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 3:48 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Monon Covered Hopper

Dan,

The short answeer is no. The Monon didn't begin loading grain in
covered hoppers until the late 1960's and then only on a limited basis.
Instead the railroad operated a number of boxcars with roof hatches.

Your Athearn car respresents the Monon's first group of 3 bay covered
hoppers. They were built in 12-53 by Pullman Standard and numbered C.I.L.
4401-4430.

In 1953 three bay covered hoppers were pretty spcialized cars and the
railroad would only have purchased them if had a pre-determined purpose
which was the case. All 30 cars were equipped with vibrators to handle
flour with cars 4401 - 4415 being assigned to General Mills.

The flour business ultimately ended up on airslide cars and the 3 bay
covered hoppers were placed in sand service assinged to Sand Brokers at
Michigan City, IN.

Due to the nature of the products that these cars handled I suspect they
did not travel far from their midwest ownership and they could always seen
on line.

An interesting side note concerns the sand cars that moved between
Michigan City, IN and Indianapolis, IN. As I attempted to dupicate Monon
operatons and schedules in HO scale I learned that train scheduling
between
Michigan City branch and Indianapolis branch had the railroad moving sand
cars between the two points via Monon, IN overnight. This is a good
example
of how model operations can assist us in learning how the prototype
operated.

Mont Switzer





"D. Port Jr." <hudson464@verizon.net> wrote:
Hi everyone,

I have a Athearn PS 2893 Covered Hopper lettered for the Monon.

Did the Monon use them for grain loading?

Thank You.

Dan Port Jr.








---------------------------------
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.






Yahoo! Groups Links








---------------------------------
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your
question on Yahoo! Answers.






Yahoo! Groups Links








---------------------------------
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at Yahoo! Answers. Try it now.


Re: PE and CGW cars

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Steve,

At through the 1950s the PE was one of California's major freight roads, at least in terms of car loadings. They had a modest fleet of several hundred freight cars of many types (for your interest, chiefly SP-clone 40' single-sheathed boxcars which went everywhere). In Tony's SP boxcar book, there are shots of one in Pennsylvania, apparently damaged and repaired by the PRR. IIRC, most of the PE fleet was relettered SP in 1956. Sunshine has offered a nice resin kit for their SS boxcars, which includes their unusual outside-hung brake rigging (for those tight traction curves).

The CGW was a moderately large carrier, and owned a fair-sized fleet of cars of all types. Their boxcars and RBLs especially went just about everywhere.

Hope this general stuff is of use.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

sc279373 wrote:

Hello to you all
I'm the new boy on the block and I'd like to ask the following question-
Would Pacific Electric and Chicago Great Western cars(of any sort)be seen in New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?
Would they make that sort of a long journey from their home road?
Regards
Steve


Re: Sharing Knowledge: Was Parasitism

Peter Weiglin
 

Mike Farina wrote:

. . . You are not wrong, you are dead on the money. If you want to
help, help. If you don't want to help, then don't. To smugly accuse
someone of being a parasite is obnoxious as all hell and totally
uncalled for.

= = =

My goodness, how far off topic we got; no wonder the moderator was awakened. Let me clarify.

No one was "smugly accused of being a parasite." My original post was not directed at those who ask for help; it was directed at those who complain and whine about a helper who also suggests a reference source -- even a reference source in which he may have an economic interest.

Me, I want to hear about whatever sources a helper may tell us about. If he or she may derive some income from that, it's off-list and he/she has earned it. No one should feel inhibited from recommending any source, particularly the author(s) of that source.

Peter Weiglin
Amelia, OH


Re: PE and CGW cars

original_coaster <sfdanas@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "sc279373" <sccooper@...> wrote:

Hello to you all
I'm the new boy on the block and I'd like to ask the following
question-
Would Pacific Electric and Chicago Great Western cars(of any sort)be
seen in New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?
Would they make that sort of a long journey from their home road?
Regards
Steve
Steve --
Actually, I believe I'm the new(er) boy on the block, at least as far
as this forum goes. To your question, however, I think there's both a
long and short answer.

Short answer: Yes, theoretically, depending on what was being shipped
and where it was being shipped. Although a freightcar was normally
supposed to be sent back to its home road as quickly and directly as
possible, some cars stayed "on the road" for most of their careers as
freight agents used them to fill local needs when they became
available. It was generally more desirable to load a car for its
return trip than to "deadhead" it. (There were exceptions, of course.)

Slightly longer answer: It would depend on what era you're modeling,
since both PE and Chicago Great Western were absorbed into other
railroads. Pacific Electric came under Southern Pacific control early
on, although it continued to run more or less autonomously for a
number of years thereafter. (The problem there is determining at what
point it ceased to gain new equipment -- and I'm not sure how many
cars it had in the first place -- and at what point the equipment was
either retired or repainted into SP.) I suspect the time element
would be more forgiving in the case of CGW, although I could just as
easily be wrong there.

I hope I haven't simply served to confuse the issue for you.

-- Paul Dana
San Francisco


ADMIN: Helping Others

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

It is time for me to step in and make several clarifying points:

* Nobody on this list has recently complained about "having to buy a
book". Such complaints occurred on another list, and the response
accidentally spilled over to STMFC.

* Having seen no recent issues with "parasites" on STMFC, there really
isn't anything further to discuss on this topic. The list policy is clear
(which Mike has re-sent in his recent Admin message).

* Personal attacks are not permitted on the list.

* This topic is now closed.

Thank you,

-Jeff Aley
Deputy Moderator, STMFC

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: PE and CGW cars

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Steve,

To answer your question rather broadly -

Yes for Boxcars in roughly the same proportion as the percentage of PE and CGW-owned boxcars of the National Boxcar fleet, but, for other car types, it would be a very rare instance.

Tim Gilbert

sc279373 wrote:

Hello to you all
I'm the new boy on the block and I'd like to ask the following question-
Would Pacific Electric and Chicago Great Western cars(of any sort)be
seen in New Jersey or Pennsylvania ?
Would they make that sort of a long journey from their home road?
Regards
Steve

124941 - 124960 of 183358