Date   

Re: F&C tank car mods

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Thanks for the added info Garth. Would you post a photo or two of your stand in model? I'd like to see it. I'd also appreciate the WP 10K tank frame measurements you mention.

Some of us CPR modellers are trying to determine whether the CP also owned 8K gallon cars of this design - I have the F&C kit and like it - though I'm still looking for a suitable Canadian prototype.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@virginia.edu>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:59 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] F&C tank car mods


Rob and Friends,

I believe that the 8,000 and 10,000 gallon cars used the same frame. I'm
sure Richard or Tony will correct me if I'm wrong. I have the
dimensioned drawings of the WP 10K tanks at home and can check for you,
but don't have documentation for the 8K size.

I talked with the nice lady at F&C last night. She confirmed at all
their tank cars so far are the same castings, 8,000 gallons. When I
asked for their "AC&F Type 11", she corrected me and said they were
aware of the disagreement over the nomenclature. I didn't argue the
point, but will stick with Richard's assessment. She also said they are
considering offering other lettering for the existing cars as they find
documentation. So far they have 6990/6991, PRR with white and black
decals respectively; 7030, National Oil Co.; and 7031, Associated Oil
Co. The latter two are based on prints from Bob's Photos. She told me
they are considering other variations using common parts, possibly a 10K
car, but there is nothing definite in the plans at this time. I put in a
bid for the 10K high-walkway Type 4, which was a Western Pacific
signature car.

I bought one copy of 7031, plus some other stuff.

The 10K tank seems to be about the same diameter as the Walthers tank.
It is 3' longer than the dimension given for the WP cars. The dome is
way too big, and I haven't found anything like those end mounted safety
valves. I sectioned the tank just inside the end bands, took a like
amount from the underframe, and made some other changes to approximate
the WP 10K high-walkway cars using detail photos I took of a surviving
car at the Western Railway Museum. It is just a stand-in until something
better comes along.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Rob Kirkham wrote:
While on the topic of the F&C tank car, I wonder if anyone can advise
whether the frame is good for a 10000 gallon tank instead of the 8000 gallon
tank supplied by F&C. Of course the saddle/tank cradles would have to be
modified - my question is in terms of length and layout of the various sills
and cross bearers, etc. My reason - the CPR had very similar cars - but
with larger tanks than the PRR.

Don't ask me how I'm going to make a larger tank - that project is still in
the conceptual stages with my rivet machine .....

Rob Kirkham




Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: Car movements

Russell Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Clark,

Another factor that may fit in with an operating scheme:

Say your local elevator is ordering three cars a day. The Car Distributor or
Conductor on your local is right with the program and shows up Monday with
15 cars or even spaces them out over the week. As luck would have it the
fields are wet and he does not have enough corn or beans coming in to load
at that pace. As long as the Agent has ordered cars on hand he must
constructivly place three cars per day, (see Harris Anti-Trust Law
pertaining to unlawfull rebates). In order to make the demurrage system
function fairly the cars have to be spotted in the order thay were
constructivly placed.

This would mean that both the Agent and Conductor would have to try and keep
the cars in the correct order to avoid unecessary switching.

I have worked in a situation where a single Customer might have 75 or 80
loaded or empty cars that have yet to be spotted and it does get
complicated. At times the Car Distributor would get ambitious and send you
un-ordered cars for "prospective loading". That was sometimes good and
sometimes bad. After a while the Mill Foreman did get used to me
and, to some degree, let me handle the spotting order of both loads and
empties. This made for easier switching but I still had to place cars in the
order of arrival. A byproduct of this was that it saved them some demurrage
on loaded cars because he did not know the arrival dates and was often
running around older cars.

Russ

I've been trying to comprehend this freight car movement business, because
I'm trying to work out an operating scheme for my layout. But I'm not
getting it. The little info I have shows no preference to any car, just load
what's available.

Chet just sent me train orders for a local wayfreight that said : "If you
have any mty box give to co/op"
But, he also sent a switch list with a hand written note at the bottom
stating: Spot the 2 foreign Bx first to load"

My question is: If I have two empties, one mine, one foreign road and a
customer orders a car. Which do I give him and why? And why would I not give
him the other car?

Hopefully the answer will straighten me out?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Re: Car movements

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

In the days before computers, per diem charges were based upon who had
possession of the car at midnight. This led to a frantic movement of
cars through interchange yards as the witching hour approached. Each
road trying to dump as many foreign cars on its neighbor before the
bell went off. It was sort of like a game of hearts with hundreds of
50 ton queens of spades !

The operation has great potential for interesting operation on an
appropriately configured model RR.

regards,

Andy Miller


Re: Kline/Culotta book

Aidrian Bridgeman-Sutton <smokeandsteam@...>
 

Ben



Unless I am missing something their absence only indicates the car was last
painted before the changeover to the SK style.



Unless Pennsy paint shops did something other railroads didnt and repainted
all their cars very quickly when a new standard was adopted, there could
have been many years go by before cars painted in 1953 needed a repaint.



If the car had the new style it would have dated the photo to a date after
the adoption of the shadow keystone, but the absence of the new monograms
only narrows things down to a probable range of dates which extends some
considerable time past the date this style first came into service.



Aidrian

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
benjaminfrank_hom

What do you mean the lack of Shadow Keystones don't help me date the
photo? The absence tells me that it's pre-1954.




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Re: PE and CGW cars

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Jon Miller wrote:
In a remelt shop<
They remelted everything from cars to gons of scrap. I really
don't know what the coal was for but it was there. Union City had a
couple of blast furnaces but to my knowledge never used them past
once. They also received lots of liquid oxygen, maybe coal and
oxygen????? to heat up the scrap?

Union City, CA
I thought Oakland had some type of steel plant also, maybe a
remelt shop.
I think the average person confuses iron ore smelters -- a.k.a. a blast
furnaces -- with making steel. Iron smelting is a different process than
making steel. Given that fact there were many steel mills that did not
smelt iron ore... they made steel by melting scrap.

Jon, the steel mill you recall was Judson-Pacific in Emeryville. They did
not have a blast furnace. Surely Tony can give the correct info but IIRC
the use of *lots* of oxygen is a post steam era ingredient.

Dave Nelson


Re: PE and CGW cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

In a remelt shop<
They remelted everything from cars to gons of scrap. I really don't know what the coal was for but it was there. Union City had a couple of blast furnaces but to my knowledge never used them past once. They also received lots of liquid oxygen, maybe coal and oxygen????? to heat up the scrap?

Union City, CA
I thought Oakland had some type of steel plant also, maybe a remelt shop.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Dare I ask these questions?

Jeff Aley - GCD PE <jaley@...>
 

F&C is on the list to attend Prototype Rails in Cocoa Beach this coming
January. The last time they attended, they brought a whole lot of kits
(including bagged kits) to sell.

Steve Funaro will be doing a clinic on "Building an Easy Resin Kit". The
Viscose flatcar will be highlighted and will be available for $12. This
is a 60' flatcar used to carry the equipment for the manufacturing of
rayon. The car is only available at prototype conventions when he does
the clinic. This is the last clinic that this car will be used.


Regards,

-Jeff



On Dec 13, 8:08am, Garth G. Groff wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Dare I ask these questions?
Dave,

I will look into this, but I can't do anything until Friday or even
maybe Tuesday. Anyone can take advantage of their 2 for 1 + bagged kit
offer right now, and F&C takes phone/credit card orders. The number is
570-224-4989. When I met the F&C folks last spring at Timonium, they
told me to use the listings in the Walthers catalog, as they don't put
their whole line on their sheets. Last night I asked about several cars
that weren't on the sheet, and was told they were in stock.

You can get on their mailing list by sending they a supply of #10 SSAEs
(.39 postage). The address is 10 Funaro Court, Honesdale, PA 18431. They
also have a new web site at http://www.fandckits.com .

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Dave Nelson wrote:

Garth, so you have a scan of that sheet? Placing it into the files
section
would allow others to make use of the deal you described.

Dave Nelson





Yahoo! Groups Links







Yahoo! Groups Links



-- End of excerpt from Garth G. Groff


--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Car movements

Greg Martin
 

Clark,

Having not being in the business during the steam era I can't say how the car service rules were handled or how well enforced they were, especially when cars were tight and by that I mean in a shortage were talking boxcars here). However in more recent times I can tell you that the local agents made a lot of decisions for the car applicators, regardless of service rules. When I needed a car and had one empty on spot or there was an empty in town we got it. We were usually ask where the load was headed and then if the two matched the gateway or and online destination in the "right" direction then we got it. Mostly they would save the online cars for "online" halls, as when cars were short you really didn't want "your" car going over a gateway off line because they took so long to get back. Right or wrong that is what was done. But these "local" rules played out the same way when car were long as well, they just never wanted their cars to go off line. The AAR made the rules but as one applicator told me in a whisper, "the AAR doesn't own any cars". Times have changed over the past ten years as the western class 1's have gone to computer application and are living it. What good is pre diem when what you needed was an empty car for a revenue haul?

I do know that in the early 50's the SP&S was extremely short of cars and the parent companies was forced by the AAR to buy equipment for the SP&S because the other class 1's were fed-up with the SP&S "stealling" cars for loads in the OE territory. The GN bought themselves and the SP&S the car we now know as the 10'-2" car to supplement/bolster their fleet in order to avoid an embargo... This was told to me by an old Q car applicator long retired from the BN. I can see where this could have been a huge issue. One rule that both the applicators and local agents lived and died by was, " you can never load a Canadian marked car , unless you had a Canadian destination under any circumstances". We never did. Car supply is a boon or bust with business. Once Tony Thompson told me when the UP was extremely short on Center Partition/Beam cars that he had found all the supply I would ever need but they were down in Phoenix... go figure...

As we always said, follow the rules but if you made a known mistake then be prepared to beg for forgiveness... 3^)

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: cepropst@netconx.net
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 13 Dec 2006 1:54 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Car movements


I've been trying to comprehend this freight car movement business, because I'm trying to work out an operating scheme for my layout. But I'm not getting it. The little info I have shows no preference to any car, just load what's available.

Chet just sent me train orders for a local wayfreight that said : "If you have any mty box give to co/op"
But, he also sent a switch list with a hand written note at the bottom stating: Spot the 2 foreign Bx first to load"

My question is: If I have two empties, one mine, one foreign road and a customer orders a car. Which do I give him and why? And why would I not give him the other car?

Hopefully the answer will straighten me out?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa





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Re: Car Movements

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Beckert, Shawn wrote:

I seem to recall that, since a railroad had to pay per diem on any
foreign road cars on its lines every day, a big priority was to get
said cars interchanged to another road as quickly as possible.

Also, wasn't there an ICC ruling that said foreign road cars were to
be given loading preference to get them "home" faster?
Shawn,

The Rule to give precedence to the reloading of empty foreign cars probably increased per diem charges as reloading could take one or two days (free demurrage) versus the empty car proceeding homeward bound in those one or two days.

The reason for the rule was to reduce the number of freight cars which had to be hauled or switched. If nothing but home road cars were used for loading, the percentage of loaded car miles to total car miles would have been 50%. Instead in 1947, that percentage 67.0%. In 1947 for instance, there was a daily average of 1,903,074 freight cars on line. To carry the same net ton miles (632 billion) as was done would have required 2,550,000 freight cars which was 34% more than the actual 1,903,074. That 34% increase would have cost money not only in the investment in additional cars & locomotives, but also in additional track and yard capacity - the latter two were big cost items.

Tim Gilbert


Re: PE and CGW cars

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Art Marr wrote:

Richard,
What you say about eastern coal shipments is mostly true but there .is always the exception.
I have been intriguided by the NYC hopper loaded with coal headed for Oregon,probably for a foundryon page 72 of Bowden and Dill's Modoc book. To paraphrase the caption if my memory severs. The train is most ikely a Northwest Special as these trains usually always had several loads of Utah and Colorado coal although the NYC car was a little hard to ex[lain. The three photos were taken in 1946 by a fireman on one of the helpers.

Art Marr
Reno,
Art,

In UP Conductor JR Nelson's 1941 2,800 car Wheel Report, there were a couple of RDG hoppers carrying "coal" westbound from Green River WY to Montpelier ID for Portland OR. No consignee was given, but I assume the "coal" was anthracite which could be used for home heating.

In the post-War UP Wheel Reports I have parsed, there were no RDG hoppers. This may be an indication that the last die-hards burning anthracite for heat had converted over to oil or gas.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Car movements

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Clark Propst wrote:

I've been trying to comprehend this freight car movement business, because I'm trying to work out an operating scheme for my layout. But I'm not getting it. The little info I have shows no preference to any car, just load what's available.

Chet just sent me train orders for a local wayfreight that said : "If you have any mty box give to co/op"
But, he also sent a switch list with a hand written note at the bottom stating: Spot the 2 foreign Bx first to load"

My question is: If I have two empties, one mine, one foreign road and a customer orders a car. Which do I give him and why? And why would I not give him the other car?

Hopefully the answer will straighten me out?
Clark,

Assuming they are both General Service boxcars, I would expect that the conductor would have the switch crew do as little work as possible. If the drop could be made from the head end, the selected boxcar would probably be the one closest to the engine.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Car Movements

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Beckert, Shawn wrote:

I seem to recall that, since a railroad had to pay per diem on any
foreign road cars on its lines every day, a big priority was to get
said cars interchanged to another road as quickly as possible.
And the accountants would be delighted. OTOH somebodies actual decision
might go the other way.

Also, wasn't there an ICC ruling that said foreign road cars were to
be given loading preference to get them "home" faster?
In theory yes. So a shipment from Iowa to New York should have seen a
preference for that mty NYC ar over the mty SP car but again, if the
decision was made locally it could be different. Any reason from a PITA to
get to that NYC mty vs. the SP to "Who cares?".

Essentially there were "rules" in the books and there was reality on the
ground. Sometimes, perhaps often, the decision is right out of the book,
but sometimes not.

If you want to understand the theory, look for Caughlin's 1956 book on
Freight Car Utilitzation. It's often seen in internet book listings and
it's inexpensive.

IMO, on a model railroad the operator should strive to do it by the book but
not be slavishly bound to it.

Dave Nelson


Re: Car Movements

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Beckert, Shawn wrote:
Also, wasn't there an ICC ruling that said foreign road cars were to be given loading preference to get them "home" faster?
It was an AAR loading rule. Whether the ICC was involved also, I don't know.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Car Movements

Shawn Beckert
 

Clark Propst asked, among other things:

If I have two empties, one mine, one foreign road and a
customer orders a car. Which do I give him and why? And
why would I not give him the other car?
I seem to recall that, since a railroad had to pay per diem on any
foreign road cars on its lines every day, a big priority was to get
said cars interchanged to another road as quickly as possible.

Also, wasn't there an ICC ruling that said foreign road cars were to
be given loading preference to get them "home" faster?

Shawn Beckert


Car movements

Clark Propst <cepropst@...>
 

I've been trying to comprehend this freight car movement business, because I'm trying to work out an operating scheme for my layout. But I'm not getting it. The little info I have shows no preference to any car, just load what's available.

Chet just sent me train orders for a local wayfreight that said : "If you have any mty box give to co/op"
But, he also sent a switch list with a hand written note at the bottom stating: Spot the 2 foreign Bx first to load"

My question is: If I have two empties, one mine, one foreign road and a customer orders a car. Which do I give him and why? And why would I not give him the other car?

Hopefully the answer will straighten me out?
Clark Propst
Mason City Iowa


Athearn C&EI Caboose

Paul Hillman
 

Athearn is advertising the coming of an "Eastern 2 Window Caboose".
Upon calling them, they told me that this would be released in April,
2007. It's said to be a MDC re-release?

Just wondering if anyone might have an idea of it's authenticity to the
C&EI protoype. I have a photo of C&EI #5 and it looks quite similar.
The CEIHS said that they think it's very "close", and that #'s 1-6 were
acquired in 1947.

Thanks, Paul Hillman


Re: PE and CGW cars

abmarr2
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: PE and CGW cars


On Dec 13, 2006, at 10:08 AM, Jerry Dziedzic wrote:

> How do we factor in a shipper and consignee pair? Some examples that
> I'm thinking of: a steel mill in Oregon uses anthracite from eastern
> Pennsylvania. I believe it likely that home road cars -- let's say
> RDG -- would cover this move.

Sorry to pick nits, Jerry, but there were no - zero - steel mills in
Oregon. The biggest western steel mills, established during WW II to
diversify steel production geographically in the event of air attacks,
were in Utah and Southern California, and both used Utah coal. There
were small, highly specialized steel operations in Southern Calif. and
in the San Francisco Bay area which occasionally - VERY occasionally -
received carloads of eastern met coal, but that traffic probably
accounted for less than twenty car loads a year. Eastern coal simply
wasn't shipped to the west coast, and in any case small users of coal
in the western states often weren't equipped to unload hopper cars, so
what little coal they received was shipped in GS gondolas.


Recent Activity
a.. 3New Members
b.. 2New Files
.
Richard,
What you say about eastern coal shipments is mostly true but there .is always the exception.
I have been intriguided by the NYC hopper loaded with coal headed for Oregon,probably for a foundryon page 72 of Bowden and Dill's Modoc book. To paraphrase the caption if my memory severs. The train is most ikely a Northwest Special as these trains usually always had several loads of Utah and Colorado coal although the NYC car was a little hard to ex[lain. The three photos were taken in 1946 by a fireman on one of the helpers.

Art Marr
Reno, ,


Re: PE and CGW cars

al_brown03
 

Union City, what state?

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Jon Miller" <atsf@...> wrote:

small users of coal
in the western states often weren't equipped to unload hopper cars,
so
what little coal they received was shipped in GS gondolas<
Wish I had paid attention at the time but I worked a couple of
summers
at the steel mill in Union City. I do remember the coal came in
hoppers but
have no memory of what RR was on them or where they came from.
They may
have used two a year. Think the coal was loaded in the furnace
also, to add
carbon to the steel. Tony would know how this works.
Not sure how old the mill was but was told in the early days
they had an
0-4-0 steamer. When they switched to worn out diesels the steamer
went in
the furnace and came out rebar.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: PE and CGW cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jon Miller wrote:
Wish I had paid attention at the time but I worked a couple of summers
at the steel mill in Union City. I do remember the coal came in hoppers but
have no memory of what RR was on them or where they came from. They may
have used two a year. Think the coal was loaded in the furnace also, to add
carbon to the steel. Tony would know how this works.
No, no, no. The process of making steel REMOVES carbon from crude iron. In a remelt shop, which I assume Jon is talking about, one certainly does not want to add carbon to the metal. The coal (or coke) reacts with oxygen-bearing parts of the melt to make CO2. If they were really reducing iron, coke is a natural component. If they were making steel, the carbon would only be, along with any flux added, used to control slag formation.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: PE and CGW cars

Jon Miller <atsf@...>
 

small users of coal
in the western states often weren't equipped to unload hopper cars, so
what little coal they received was shipped in GS gondolas<
Wish I had paid attention at the time but I worked a couple of summers at the steel mill in Union City. I do remember the coal came in hoppers but have no memory of what RR was on them or where they came from. They may have used two a year. Think the coal was loaded in the furnace also, to add carbon to the steel. Tony would know how this works.
Not sure how old the mill was but was told in the early days they had an 0-4-0 steamer. When they switched to worn out diesels the steamer went in the furnace and came out rebar.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS

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