Date   

Allied Full Cushion Wheel Diameter

Rod Miller
 

O scale dept. time.

Precision Scale's #9129 Allied Full Cushion (AFC) kit has 33" diameter
wheels. Weaver Models' troop sleepers (TS) have 36" diameter wheels on
their AFC trucks. Which is correct?

Searching the RPCYCs and the archives of this group didn't yield an
answer. A drawing in the May 1991 MR shows 33" wheels on a TS car
converted to express service by the NYC.

If the wheel diameter when in troop sleeper service was 36 inches, were
the wheels usually changed to 33 inch wheels when the cars were
converted to non TS service by railroad owners, which would be the case
for the NYC car described above?

Thanks

Rod Miller


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Russell Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Ah yes, there is the mystery of the whole game. On track charts or station
maps it is almost always quite easy to see what an earlier layout was and
quite often the date of removal is shown.

Car plans are just the opposite. Even with new cars that are still being
built what you often see is revision "G", "H", or whatever. While they often
indicate what was revised you can not see the old information on the
drawing.

I recall that there is one series of CB&Q cars that up to a certain number
refers to a CB&Q drawing for what I faintly remember as the hand brake
layout. Subsequent cars were built using a CMStP&P layout and reference
their drawing. Is that drawing provided? Of course not.

From what I've seen the SLSF seldom created any drawings for the cars they
constructed. A lot of vendor's drawings all bundled together with an
occasional car number series written in an empty space in pencil.

Found a GN drawing for the conversion of a already very small two bay hopper
into a even smaller covered hopper. I have seen both versions of this series
so I though I'd assemble a folder with a set of drawings.
Think I did get the project done but it took a few hours. There was only one
drawing that showed where the cuts needed to be made but everything else was
just references to the cars, either before or after.

Things should never be too easy.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: pullmanboss
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 16 December, 2006 12:24
Subject: [STMFC] Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?


Dennis Storzek:
> I'm getting a chuckle out of all the different AAR standards,
> because they don't exist.

This is what we get for attaching special significance to, even
venerating, objects which their originators viewed only in terms of
their utility. I run into this all the time in analyzing Pullman
records - original linen drawings re-inked and annotated with
changes to the point that the original information is lost, entries
on so-called "running records" of a car's history erased or
obliterated to make way for subsequent entries, revision notes that
tease without informing ("Rev. D: Window band striping now 2 1/2"
wide" says nothing about what the previous width was if the revision
also changed the dimension on the drawing).....

Basically, we are historians trying to make sense of records
generated by people who cared very little about history. Where is
that car NOW; is it loaded or empty NOW; what is its condition NOW;
does it need repairs NOW? Today and tomorrow were important;
yesterday and last year were not. The records and drawings were
structured to show the viewer, at a glance, what the situation was
NOW, no matter when "NOW" was. We shouldn't fault them because many
decades later we think we would have done things differently. Nor
should we seek order and structure when none was present initially.

The resulting variety might make the historian's job frustrating,
but it should delight the modeler. As modelers, perhaps we should
focus more on the delight and not get too hung up on the frustration.

Tom Madden


Re: UCLA Library Images

Barry Bennett <Barrybennetttoo@...>
 

My point being that there are only a few open doors, which indicates to
me that the spirit of the closed doors rule appears to be followed if
not the letter of the rule, which fits in with the comments made
earlier by people associated with SPCo.

Barry


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Dec 16, 2006, at 2:05 AM, Barry Bennett wrote:

Anybody want to count the number of open doors?
Yes, Barry, but open doors were common on cars in yards. The issue
we've discussed previously on this list is what the rules were about
open doors on cars in motion (doors were supposed to be secured shut)
and how often, in fact, cars with open doors were seen in trains
(very
seldom).

Richard Hendrickson


Re: UCLA Library Images

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 16, 2006, at 2:05 AM, Barry Bennett wrote:

Anybody want to count the number of open doors?
Yes, Barry, but open doors were common on cars in yards. The issue we've discussed previously on this list is what the rules were about open doors on cars in motion (doors were supposed to be secured shut) and how often, in fact, cars with open doors were seen in trains (very seldom).

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Were all Dreadnaught ends made by Standard Railway Equipment?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 15, 2006, at 8:17 PM, Dennis Storzek wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
The term "Dreadnaught" appears to have only been used by
SRECo,
though I haven't noticed a mark indicating it was registered as a
trademark. But others made the same design. All the early SP 1937 AAR
cars had "dreadnaught-type" ends made by Union Metal Products.Whethr
there was a license for the design, from SRECo, I don't know.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...

Tony,

I've never made a major study of the origin of this end design, But I
believe it predates the SREC ownership. Like so many other proprietary
items in the SREC line, it appears it was developed elsewhere, and
purchased and marketed by SREC.

For evidence I present everal photos in the 1931 Car Builders Cyc,
which show the early dreadnaught end, and are captioned ,"Dreadnaught
two piece steel end for box cars. Union Metal Products Co." Standard
Railway Equipment Co. was showing roofs in this edition of the Cyc,
but not ends.
Yes, but at that time the Union Metal Products Co. was, in fact, a
subsidiary of the Standard Railway Equipment Co., as evidenced by the
fact that both Union and SRE used the "Murphy" trade name for freight
car ends (Union) and roofs (SRE), Murphy having been SRE's founder.
Union wasn't entirely absorbed into SRE until the late 1930s – the 1940
CBCyc is the first one that shows Dreadnaught ends as being made by SRE
– but at least as far back as the mid-1920s Union was controlled by
SRE.

Interestingly, this is the "innie" end, which modelers have been
calling a "reverse Dreadnaught", to differentiate it from the later
ends where the pressings faced outward. Problem is, if this is the
original design, then this should be THE Dreadnaught end, and all the
other "outie" ends should be reverse Dreadnaught. Which just points up
the problem with using names devised by modelers; eventually it comes
to light that the assumptions were wrong, and we are stuck with names
that don't accurately describe the hardware, and are confusing as well.
Obviously, names devised by modelers can be a problem (e.g., the
long-standing practice of calling all trucks with the journal boxes
cast integral with the side frames "Bettendorf," as some modelers and
manufacturers still persist in doing, ignoring the extensive
terminology of the truck manufacturers themselves which makes it
possible to differentiate the many different variations of the ARA/AAR
truck designs). On the other hand, when the manufacturers and the
railroad industry as a whole do not differentiate between one design
and another, as in the case of many variations on the basic theme of
the Dreadnaught end, modelers have to invent something, as the
differences between e.g. inward stamped and outward stamped ends, or
square-cornered vs. round-cornered, are important issues for accurate
prototype modeling, though seldom or never mentioned in the CBCycs or
other railway engineering literature. Sometimes, as in this case, we
can't resurrect the "correct" terms because they didn't exist, and then
what matters is we can come to some agreement about the terms we're
using, even when they aren't sanctioned by the prototype documentation.
SRE did, of course, adopt the term "Improved Dreadnaught end" for the
postwar ends with "rolling pin shaped" main ribs, but then continued to
use the term for the mid-1950s version with straight tapered main ribs.
Of course, "rolling pin shaped" doesn't appear anywhere in the
prototype documentation, but what's a modeler to do? We have to be
able to differentiate one Improved Dreadnaught end design from another,
whether or not SRE bothered to do so. When extensive research doesn't
turn up the necessary terminology, we're obliged to invent it.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Car movements

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "Frank Greene" ) I understood everything you said except this. Are you saying the home
road's cars earned the same PD on foreign roads as the foreign roads' cars
earned on the home road?
==================

Per diem was a daily payment, at a fixed rate, paid by each railroad to the owner of any railroad-owned car on its railroad at midnight.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: UCLA Library Images

bowie1793
 

I lived in the area and went to high school there located adjacent to the pedestrian bridge over the 'cornfield/river' yards, (N.Broadway & Bishop Rds.). The yard was always packed with cars. At times it seemed you could hop from roof to roof between Broadway and Spring St., west to east, and though the yards were our playground we never did.
Joe Jacques

Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com> wrote:
Paul Koehler wrote:
The shot was taken from the pedestrian bridge that went over the
Cornfield/Links yard just north of downtown. You can see Southern
Pacific's
A shed just behind the freight cars and beyond you also see Los
Angeles City
Hall and the Terminal Annex Post Office next door to LAUPT.
Paul, the yard looks really full. Was this normal, or is it a
coincidence--or an artifact of the camera angle?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history





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Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

Hi:

In the last few days I've gotten some back issues of the RPC and
taken a good look at some of the files here and on the Steam Freight
Cars site, all of which has left me a little confused about how
various AAR boxcars are defined....

Kurt -

Although it is a little off-topic from the actual questions you have
asked, I think the AAR designation itself is based primarily on the
design of the underframe of the car. This is dead "on-topic" for
the subject line of all this thread's posts, so just had to put in
my two cents.

I think that in the steam era, the AAR required all new designs of
underframes to be tested to destruction before they would approve
the new design for use. These full sized underframes were tested at
facilities like AC&F at St Charles, Mo., where there was an indoor
inclined track with a weighted car that was lifted up the track and
released, impacting the new underframe at the coupler. The AC&F
facility was the last in use as of 1988, and they had recently
tested new underframes there for things like the articulated SP 1-,
2- and 5-car container cars on it in the early 1980's. In the steam
era, there were apparently a couple more of these testing facilities
at other car builders, according to the engineers at AC&F.

I guess the theory was that you could put certain things onto a 1937
AAR underframe, and it would still be roadworthy without re-
testing. Hence the proliferation of inside heights, ends, doors,
roofs, etc., all of which were AAR approved for that underframe.

How much alteration of the underframe was allowed before it had to
be re-tested as "new"? For sure, the increase in number of Z-shaped
longitudinal runners under the floor did not require re-testing.
Did all welded vs riveted underframe components? A.T. Kott


Re: car ownership proportions

Bruce Smith
 

On Fri, December 15, 2006 4:36 pm, Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
I don�t agree with this, at least for those to whom simple arithmetic
statistics are not a complication. For each car type, you can make a
reasonable estimate of the percentage of home road cars, depending on
whether you originate or terminate more loads in those cars. Then
simply make a rough estimate of the relative size of other roads in your
region and use those proportions for let�s say two thirds of the
foreigns. Make the other third roads that are further away.
Malcolm,

I agree that building a fleet (not an individual train) is simple and that
first you need to figure the home road percentage (not always simple to
do... ). However, from there your argument over generalizes. For
hoppers regionality is a big deal, for gons it plays a role, but for
boxcars, your approach is fatally flawed, as has been shown innumerable
times on this very list. Regionality simply does not apply. So, to
continue your answer, instead of the regionality approach, use the
national fleet numbers for the rest of the boxcars. You can even get more
precise and use the percentages of classes for a given road to determing
the makeup of that road's fleet. To add an even more interesting
argument, assume that some of the oldest cars in a fleet are stored
pending disposition, so you can slightly bias the fleet to newer cars (but
be sure to have some old home road cars sitting sidings too <G>)

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: UCLA Library Images

Paul <buygone@...>
 

Tony:



I would judge from the time period the photo was taken that it was just
normal. These two yards along with the Bullring and Midway yard which to
the passerby it was just all one big yard, handled all of the traffic for
the industries located to the south as far as South Gate and east to about
El Monte to the East. Taylor yard handled the local traffic to the north,
interchange traffic to the UP, ATSF and LAJ, Colton, Orange County and the
rest of the South including the Harbor district.



Paul



_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 9:07 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UCLA Library Images



Paul Koehler wrote:
The shot was taken from the pedestrian bridge that went over the
Cornfield/Links yard just north of downtown. You can see Southern
Pacific's
A shed just behind the freight cars and beyond you also see Los
Angeles City
Hall and the Terminal Annex Post Office next door to LAUPT.
Paul, the yard looks really full. Was this normal, or is it a
coincidence--or an artifact of the camera angle?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Tony, wouldn't you say that the CBCs are secondary sources though? After all, the caption writers at Simmons-Boardman weren't the ones responsible for assigning car designations.
Two points, Kurt. First, the Cyc sections refer often to AAR terminology, even if perhaps in shorthand form; and on every volume's title page, it says "Compiled and Edited for the AAR Mechanical Division." Somehow I'd doubt that they made up their own terminology for the book. Second, even if they did, that would make the terminology a creation of Simmons-Boardman, NOT of modelers.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

I beg to differ, Dennis. As Ed Hawkins observed, the Cycs used
AAR terminology, and they DO most certainly refer to such things as the
"1942 design" for these various modifications. See any AAR standard car
drawing in a Cyc. This was NOT made up by modelers.
----- Original Message -----

Tony, wouldn't you say that the CBCs are secondary sources though? After all, the caption writers at Simmons-Boardman weren't the ones responsible for assigning car designations.

KL


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
I'm getting a chuckle out of all the different AAR standards, because they don't exist. I have before me a copy of a drawing . . .

This 1937 drawing shows a boxcar with R-3-4 IDE ends, a diagonal panel roof, and the improved Youngstown door. How can this be, you ask? Simple, this is revision "K" of the 1937 drawing.

In reality, when the design was adopted in 1937, it became THE AAR standard boxcar, and simply went through a gradual series of incremental changes from that point on. . .
Each and every one of these could be thought of as the AAR standard boxcar of that particular date, or they could all be thought of as the AAR 1937 standard boxcar, as revised. The only thing they are not is the 1942 standard, or 1944 standard, or the Post War standard, except in the most general terms. Those are just names that some modeler made up somewhere along the line. In reality, we should be discussing the "Revision C car", or the "Revision J car".
I beg to differ, Dennis. As Ed Hawkins observed, the Cycs used AAR terminology, and they DO most certainly refer to such things as the "1942 design" for these various modifications. See any AAR standard car drawing in a Cyc. This was NOT made up by modelers.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Dennis Storzek:
I'm getting a chuckle out of all the different AAR standards,
because they don't exist.
[Snip]

This 1937 drawing [I'm looking at now] shows a boxcar with R-3-4
IDE ends, a diagonal panel roof, and the improved Youngstown door.
How can this be, you ask? Simple, this is revision "K" of the 1937
drawing.
[More snip]

Each and every one of these [Revisions "A" through "K"] could be
thought of as the AAR standard boxcar of that particular date, or
they could all be thought of as the AAR 1937 standard boxcar, as
revised.
{Still more snippage]

Do I know what changes were made to the standard at each revision?
Unfortunately not, as there is no revision notes included with the
drawings.
This is what we get for attaching special significance to, even
venerating, objects which their originators viewed only in terms of
their utility. I run into this all the time in analyzing Pullman
records - original linen drawings re-inked and annotated with
changes to the point that the original information is lost, entries
on so-called "running records" of a car's history erased or
obliterated to make way for subsequent entries, revision notes that
tease without informing ("Rev. D: Window band striping now 2 1/2"
wide" says nothing about what the previous width was if the revision
also changed the dimension on the drawing).....

Basically, we are historians trying to make sense of records
generated by people who cared very little about history. Where is
that car NOW; is it loaded or empty NOW; what is its condition NOW;
does it need repairs NOW? Today and tomorrow were important;
yesterday and last year were not. The records and drawings were
structured to show the viewer, at a glance, what the situation was
NOW, no matter when "NOW" was. We shouldn't fault them because many
decades later we think we would have done things differently. Nor
should we seek order and structure when none was present initially.

The resulting variety might make the historian's job frustrating,
but it should delight the modeler. As modelers, perhaps we should
focus more on the delight and not get too hung up on the frustration.

Tom Madden


Re: UCLA Library Images

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Paul Koehler wrote:
The shot was taken from the pedestrian bridge that went over the
Cornfield/Links yard just north of downtown. You can see Southern Pacific's
A shed just behind the freight cars and beyond you also see Los Angeles City
Hall and the Terminal Annex Post Office next door to LAUPT.
Paul, the yard looks really full. Was this normal, or is it a coincidence--or an artifact of the camera angle?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: UCLA Library Images

Paul <buygone@...>
 

The shot was taken from the pedestrian bridge that went over the
Cornfield/Links yard just north of downtown. You can see Southern Pacific's
A shed just behind the freight cars and beyond you also see Los Angeles City
Hall and the Terminal Annex Post Office next door to LAUPT.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Howard R Garner
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 6:59 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UCLA Library Images




7c. Re: UCLA Library Images
Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" fleeta@verizon. <mailto:fleeta%40verizon.net>
net kurt_laughlin
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:30 pm ((PST))

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Chaparro

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication date
of the image.
----- Original Message -----

For the person asking about western cars back east, note that there are
three B&O, one C&O, and one NYC in the photo, a mirror image of your
scenario. No PRRs immediately visible though.

KL

I see a Southern car in about the middle.
Locate the back B&O wagon top and then look right three cars, two tracks
back, just below a light pole.
Too much white and too large for SP.

Howeard Garner


Re: UCLA Library Images

earlyrail
 

7c. Re: UCLA Library Images
Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" fleeta@verizon.net kurt_laughlin
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:30 pm ((PST))

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Chaparro

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication date
of the image.
----- Original Message -----

For the person asking about western cars back east, note that there are three B&O, one C&O, and one NYC in the photo, a mirror image of your scenario. No PRRs immediately visible though.

KL
I see a Southern car in about the middle.
Locate the back B&O wagon top and then look right three cars, two tracks back, just below a light pole.
Too much white and too large for SP.

Howeard Garner


To Aminsitrator

raildata@...
 

Please change my e-mail address to raildata@comcast.net on your set.

Chuck Yungkurth


Re: UCLA Library Images

Barry Bennett <Barrybennetttoo@...>
 

Anybody want to count the number of open doors?

Cheers

barry (tiptoes quietly away).

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Chaparro" <thecitrusbelt@...>
wrote:

The UCLA Library has placed some of its image collection on line at:

http://unitproj1.library.ucla.edu/dlib/lat/introduction.cfm

So far the railroad images are limited, but here is one that is
clear,
crisp and has a lot of boxcar variety:

http://tinyurl.com/yam5l9

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication
date
of the image.

Bob Chaparro
Mission Viejo/Hemet, CA


Re: UCLA Library Images

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 15, 2006, at 11:53 PM, Bob Chaparro wrote:

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication date
of the image.
Bob,
Thanks for the reference to this great photo! To help date the photo,
the MODX (ART) 2000-series insulated box cars in the string were built
8-55.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

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