Date   

Re: UCLA Library Images

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Paul Koehler wrote:
The shot was taken from the pedestrian bridge that went over the
Cornfield/Links yard just north of downtown. You can see Southern Pacific's
A shed just behind the freight cars and beyond you also see Los Angeles City
Hall and the Terminal Annex Post Office next door to LAUPT.
Paul, the yard looks really full. Was this normal, or is it a coincidence--or an artifact of the camera angle?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: UCLA Library Images

Paul <buygone@...>
 

The shot was taken from the pedestrian bridge that went over the
Cornfield/Links yard just north of downtown. You can see Southern Pacific's
A shed just behind the freight cars and beyond you also see Los Angeles City
Hall and the Terminal Annex Post Office next door to LAUPT.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Howard R Garner
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 6:59 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] UCLA Library Images




7c. Re: UCLA Library Images
Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" fleeta@verizon. <mailto:fleeta%40verizon.net>
net kurt_laughlin
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:30 pm ((PST))

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Chaparro

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication date
of the image.
----- Original Message -----

For the person asking about western cars back east, note that there are
three B&O, one C&O, and one NYC in the photo, a mirror image of your
scenario. No PRRs immediately visible though.

KL

I see a Southern car in about the middle.
Locate the back B&O wagon top and then look right three cars, two tracks
back, just below a light pole.
Too much white and too large for SP.

Howeard Garner


Re: UCLA Library Images

earlyrail
 

7c. Re: UCLA Library Images
Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" fleeta@verizon.net kurt_laughlin
Date: Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:30 pm ((PST))

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Chaparro

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication date
of the image.
----- Original Message -----

For the person asking about western cars back east, note that there are three B&O, one C&O, and one NYC in the photo, a mirror image of your scenario. No PRRs immediately visible though.

KL
I see a Southern car in about the middle.
Locate the back B&O wagon top and then look right three cars, two tracks back, just below a light pole.
Too much white and too large for SP.

Howeard Garner


To Aminsitrator

raildata@...
 

Please change my e-mail address to raildata@comcast.net on your set.

Chuck Yungkurth


Re: UCLA Library Images

Barry Bennett <Barrybennetttoo@...>
 

Anybody want to count the number of open doors?

Cheers

barry (tiptoes quietly away).

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Chaparro" <thecitrusbelt@...>
wrote:

The UCLA Library has placed some of its image collection on line at:

http://unitproj1.library.ucla.edu/dlib/lat/introduction.cfm

So far the railroad images are limited, but here is one that is
clear,
crisp and has a lot of boxcar variety:

http://tinyurl.com/yam5l9

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication
date
of the image.

Bob Chaparro
Mission Viejo/Hemet, CA


Re: UCLA Library Images

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 15, 2006, at 11:53 PM, Bob Chaparro wrote:

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication date
of the image.
Bob,
Thanks for the reference to this great photo! To help date the photo,
the MODX (ART) 2000-series insulated box cars in the string were built
8-55.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: UCLA Library Images

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Chaparro

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication date
of the image.
----- Original Message -----

For the person asking about western cars back east, note that there are three B&O, one C&O, and one NYC in the photo, a mirror image of your scenario. No PRRs immediately visible though.

KL


UCLA Library Images

Bob Chaparro <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

The UCLA Library has placed some of its image collection on line at:

http://unitproj1.library.ucla.edu/dlib/lat/introduction.cfm

So far the railroad images are limited, but here is one that is clear,
crisp and has a lot of boxcar variety:

http://tinyurl.com/yam5l9

This is a shot of an SP freight yard with Los Angeles skyline in
background, taken some time before July 23, 1956, the publication date
of the image.

Bob Chaparro
Mission Viejo/Hemet, CA


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Storzek

In reality, when the design was adopted in 1937, it became THE AAR
standard boxcar, and simply went through a gradual series of
incremental changes from that point on. The dates of the revisions on
this plate are as follows:

A 12/31/37
B 8/3/40
C 3/15/41
D 6/25/42
E 12/1/45
F 4/1/48
G 3/1/51
H 6/24/54
I 3/1/56
J 12/1/57

And finally K, 4/1/62. There may be more, but not on my copy of the
drawing.

. . .

In reality, we should be discussing the
"Revision C car", or the "Revision J car".
----- Original Message -----

I agree.

----- Original Message -----
Do I know what changes were made to the standard at each revision?
Unfortunately not, as there is no revision notes included with the
drawings.
----- Original Message -----

Poo. That's just what I was going to ask. That's exactly how some of the Sherman tank changes have been dated. I take it the AAR has not been able or willing to provide archival data?

KL


Re: Were all Dreadnaught ends made by Standard Railway Equipment?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Storzek

Which just points up
the problem with using names devised by modelers; eventually it comes
to light that the assumptions were wrong, and we are stuck with names
that don't accurately describe the hardware, and are confusing as well.
----- Original Message -----

The very same thing happened with Sherman tanks. A book came out a few years ago where the author made up his on nomenclature for various parts ("fancy smooth" and "sharp beak" being two of the more notable). Unfortunately he never did any archival research and apparently never caught on to the concept that all those letters and numbers stamped and cast into the parts might have actually meant something, or that the Army would need to have some way to keep track of the parts in the logistics system. It's taken us almost 10 years of publishing but people are finally starting to realize that there might be an advantage to calling everything by its correct name.

KL


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:


On Dec 15, 2006, at 12:48 PM, Kurt Laughlin wrote:

As best as I can tell, there were four main types: 1937, 1937
(modified), 1944, and postwar. What distinguishes theses from each
other? I'm pretty sure that 40-6 x 9-2 x 10-0 cars are the 1937 types
and that 40-6 x 9-4 x 10-6 cars are postwar, but what are the others
and how much leeway in dimensions is there within a type? For
example,
looking at RPC 4 pages 12 to 34 I see:

NC &STL 18850 9-2 x 10-0 "1937 AAR"
CB&Q 35000 9-4 x 10-6 "AAR" (blt 5-47)
ATSF 143510 9-2 x 10-4 "1937 (modified) AAR"
CNW 71028 9-2 x 10-5 "1937 (modified) AAR"
CNW 80606 9-2 x 10-6 "1937 (modified) AAR"
UP 197899 9-2 x 10-6 "1944 AAR"
SOUTHERN 23399 9-2 x 10-6 "AAR" (blt 8-47)
MP 37447 9-2 x 10-6 "AAR" (blt 8-57)

Thanks in advance,
KL
Kurt,
Since you specifically called out some RP CYC references, I'll comment
and provide some specific references. To begin, Richard and Tony are
right when they say it's not an easy question to answer!

For background, the Car Builders' Cyclopedias, which use A.A.R.
terminology, specify the "1937 A.A.R. design" (i.e., page 110 of the
1940 CBC). Generally, this design was for a standard 40'-6" box car
with 10'-0" IH (some variations existed). The majority of these cars
had Dreadnaught Steel Ends (4/5 corrugation pattern) and Murphy raised
panel roofs, however, there were box cars built that met the design
criteria having other ends and/or roofs (such as Buckeye ends,
Pullman-Standard Corrugated Ends, 5/5 Dreadnaught Steel Ends used by
CP, "NSC" ends used on numerous CN cars, Viking roofs). Prior to this
was the 1932 A.A.R. box car (originated by the A.R.A.), and a drawing
of this car is shown on page 113 of the 1940 CBC. The standard IH was
9'-4". Again, there were variations of the inside height, and there
were all kinds of variations of roofs and ends, causing this "standard"
car to be anything but standard from the standpoint of a plastic
manufacturer thus far unable to justify tooling cost. To this day we
have no good plastic models of the 1932 "standard design" box car that
Ted Culotta wrote an entire book about.

In the 1946 CBC is a drawing and photo of an Erie 40'-6" box car
(81000-81799), and it states "Modified A.A.R. Standard" on page 110 as
part of the drawing title. It also specifies "Modified 1937 A.A.R.
design" on page 111 as part of the photo caption. These cars had an
inside height of 10'-4 3/8", and they were essentially the same as the
1937 A.A.R. design except taller and used 5/5 Dreadnaught Steel
Ends....

As we know, "postwar" cars of 10'-4" to 10'-6" IH used a variety of
ends and roofs over 15+ years of production. In my rosters and
writings, I have used the term "postwar A.A.R. box car" not as an
official A.A.R. term, but to refer to a family of box cars generally
built from mid-1945 (first use of the Improved Dreadnaught End that I
could find) to 1960, where we cut off the discussion per STMFC
requirements.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins
I'm getting a chuckle out of all the different AAR standards, because
they don't exist.

I have before me a copy of a drawing titled:

4-C-40 TON STEEL SHEATHED BOXCAR
4-D-50 TON STEEL SHEATHED BOXCAR

GENERAL ARRANGEMENT

ASSOCIATION OF AMERICAN RAILROADS
MECHANICAL DIVISION

DATE APRIL 1,1937 PLATE No.1500-K

This 1937 drawing shows a boxcar with R-3-4 IDE ends, a diagonal panel
roof, and the improved Youngstown door. How can this be, you ask?
Simple, this is revision "K" of the 1937 drawing.

In reality, when the design was adopted in 1937, it became THE AAR
standard boxcar, and simply went through a gradual series of
incremental changes from that point on. The dates of the revisions on
this plate are as follows:

A 12/31/37
B 8/3/40
C 3/15/41
D 6/25/42
E 12/1/45
F 4/1/48
G 3/1/51
H 6/24/54
I 3/1/56
J 12/1/57

And finally K, 4/1/62. There may be more, but not on my copy of the
drawing.

Each and every one of these could be thought of as the AAR standard
boxcar of that particular date, or they could all be thought of as the
AAR 1937 standard boxcar, as revised. The only thing they are not is
the 1942 standard, or 1944 standard, or the Post War standard, except
in the most general terms. Those are just names that some modeler made
up somewhere along the line. In reality, we should be discussing the
"Revision C car", or the "Revision J car".

Do I know what changes were made to the standard at each revision?
Unfortunately not, as there is no revision notes included with the
drawings. But, that's no excuse for making up names to mask the lack
of knowledge. How about we just call the thing the AAR Standard
boxcar, with improved Dreadnaught ends and a diagonal panel roof, or
whatever, until we find out what the proper nomenclature should be?


Dennis


Bill Welch

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Will Bill contact me off line? - Al Westerfield


Re: Were all Dreadnaught ends made by Standard Railway Equipment?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@...>
The term "Dreadnaught" appears to have only been used by SRECo,
though I haven't noticed a mark indicating it was registered as a
trademark. But others made the same design. All the early SP 1937 AAR
cars had "dreadnaught-type" ends made by Union Metal Products.Whethr
there was a license for the design, from SRECo, I don't know.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...

Tony,

I've never made a major study of the origin of this end design, But I
believe it predates the SREC ownership. Like so many other proprietary
items in the SREC line, it appears it was developed elsewhere, and
purchased and marketed by SREC.

For evidence I present everal photos in the 1931 Car Builders Cyc,
which show the early dreadnaught end, and are captioned ,"Dreadnaught
two piece steel end for box cars. Union Metal Products Co." Standard
Railway Equipment Co. was showing roofs in this edition of the Cyc,
but not ends.

Interestingly, this is the "innie" end, which modelers have been
calling a "reverse Dreadnaught", to differentiate it from the later
ends where the pressings faced outward. Problem is, if this is the
original design, then this should be THE Dreadnaught end, and all the
other "outie" ends should be reverse Dreadnaught. Which just points up
the problem with using names devised by modelers; eventually it comes
to light that the assumptions were wrong, and we are stuck with names
that don't accurately describe the hardware, and are confusing as well.

Dennis


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Ted Culotta <tculotta@...>
 

I will interject my two cents that an AAR (and 1932 ARA) box car has almost nothing to do with dimensions and everything to do with design traits. I likely could not cite all of things here, but many of them have to do with such things as the zee bar center sill sections welded along an adjacent edge, the side sills comprised of two components (an angled section on top with a lower section below it comprised of either non-continuous "tabbed" sections or a full length channel), the height of the center sill, along with many other subtle things. I will take this opportunity to say that these characteristics are covered in the 1932 ARA box car book in both the early chapters as well as the appendices.

Regards,
Ted Culotta

Speedwitch Media
645 Tanner Marsh Road, Guilford, CT 06437
info@speedwitch.com
www.speedwitch.com
(650) 787-1912


Re: Athearn C&EI Caboose

Paul Hillman
 

Fritz,

The Atlas Trainman caboose looks very close.

The CEIHS wrote, about the Athearn car:
*********************************************************************
I believe it is farily close to the C&EI caboose. They show up in the
diagram book dated May 23, 1950 as #1-6. They were built in 1947 by
ACF and were 31'-1" on the top running board. The body was 24'-8 1/8"
from end to end.
*********************************************************************

I don't know yet what diagram book they refer too. But I guess I
should take my scale-rulers and photos down to my hobby shop and
compare.

Thanks, Paul Hillman

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Fritz Milhaupt" <fmilhaupt@...> wrote:

Actually, from what I remember of the photo I saw of one of the C&EI
cabooses a couple years ago, the Atlas Trainman caboose is far
closer
to what C&EI #1-6 looked like. See
http://www.atlastrainman.com/HOFreight/tmhocupcab.htm

I'd describe the MDC caboose as "the model closest to C&EI #1-6 that
Horizon manufactures," but there's a closer model out there. It
hasn't
been released in C&EI paint yet, but I think that's just a matter of
waiting for one of the next runs.

-Fritz Milhaupt
Web Guy and Modeling Editor, Pere Marquette Historical Society, Inc.
http://www.pmhistsoc.org


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Thanks Ed, Tony, Dennis, and Richard. I'll have to digest all this and see how it fits in with my layout planning.

I'm glad I'm doing this a a hobby rather than a job. . .

KL


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Nelson

I guess it comes down to are we trying to describe the 1944 standard
specifically or post war in general.

----- Original Message -----

Well, here's were I'm coming from: I have a need for thirteen 40 foot and five 50 foot non-PRR XMs on my layout. My first cut was based on the numbers of Class I XM/XME/XIs for the period, which gave me one each ATSF, B&O, C&O, CB&Q, CNW, GN, MILW, MP, NP, NYC, SOU, SP, and UP 40 footers and one each ATSF, IC, MP, NYC, and SP 50 footers. Step 2 was to look at the period ORER and see which XM was most numerous on each road. For ease of use I went by the cubic capacity recapitulations for each road. What I've found is that while the "typical" AAR car may be the most common for a road, the practice of listing the cubic capacity as anything between 3712 and 3723 cu ft tends to dilute the total so that something like a PS-1 might appear to be most common. I figure if I can see what - if anything - really distinguishes a 3713 car from a 3715 car, I can get a truer picture of what really was the most likely to appear.

KL


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Ed Hawkins
 

On Dec 15, 2006, at 12:48 PM, Kurt Laughlin wrote:

As best as I can tell, there were four main types: 1937, 1937
(modified), 1944, and postwar. What distinguishes theses from each
other? I'm pretty sure that 40-6 x 9-2 x 10-0 cars are the 1937 types
and that 40-6 x 9-4 x 10-6 cars are postwar, but what are the others
and how much leeway in dimensions is there within a type? For example,
looking at RPC 4 pages 12 to 34 I see:

NC &STL 18850 9-2 x 10-0 "1937 AAR"
CB&Q 35000 9-4 x 10-6 "AAR" (blt 5-47)
ATSF 143510 9-2 x 10-4 "1937 (modified) AAR"
CNW 71028 9-2 x 10-5 "1937 (modified) AAR"
CNW 80606 9-2 x 10-6 "1937 (modified) AAR"
UP 197899 9-2 x 10-6 "1944 AAR"
SOUTHERN 23399 9-2 x 10-6 "AAR" (blt 8-47)
MP 37447 9-2 x 10-6 "AAR" (blt 8-57)

Thanks in advance,
KL
Kurt,
Since you specifically called out some RP CYC references, I'll comment
and provide some specific references. To begin, Richard and Tony are
right when they say it's not an easy question to answer!

For background, the Car Builders' Cyclopedias, which use A.A.R.
terminology, specify the "1937 A.A.R. design" (i.e., page 110 of the
1940 CBC). Generally, this design was for a standard 40'-6" box car
with 10'-0" IH (some variations existed). The majority of these cars
had Dreadnaught Steel Ends (4/5 corrugation pattern) and Murphy raised
panel roofs, however, there were box cars built that met the design
criteria having other ends and/or roofs (such as Buckeye ends,
Pullman-Standard Corrugated Ends, 5/5 Dreadnaught Steel Ends used by
CP, "NSC" ends used on numerous CN cars, Viking roofs). Prior to this
was the 1932 A.A.R. box car (originated by the A.R.A.), and a drawing
of this car is shown on page 113 of the 1940 CBC. The standard IH was
9'-4". Again, there were variations of the inside height, and there
were all kinds of variations of roofs and ends, causing this "standard"
car to be anything but standard from the standpoint of a plastic
manufacturer thus far unable to justify tooling cost. To this day we
have no good plastic models of the 1932 "standard design" box car that
Ted Culotta wrote an entire book about.

In the 1946 CBC is a drawing and photo of an Erie 40'-6" box car
(81000-81799), and it states "Modified A.A.R. Standard" on page 110 as
part of the drawing title. It also specifies "Modified 1937 A.A.R.
design" on page 111 as part of the photo caption. These cars had an
inside height of 10'-4 3/8", and they were essentially the same as the
1937 A.A.R. design except taller and used 5/5 Dreadnaught Steel Ends.
In my roster list of "Modified 1937 A.A.R. standard box cars," I
extended the definition to include A.A.R. design box cars with 5/5
Dreadnaught Steel Ends regardless of the inside height, basically to
cover cars from 10'-4" to 10'-6" IH. In 1941 the A.A.R. approved an
optional increase in the inside height from 10'-0" to 10'-6". Therefore
the earliest 10'-6" A.A.R. box cars are sometimes referred to as the
"1941 A.A.R. design," however I've not found any official use of this
term in a drawing notation. At any rate, references to the "Modified
1937 A.A.R." and "1941 A.A.R. design" should be considered synonymous
in their intent.

Now to the "postwar" terminology. First, the A.A.R. never used the term
"postwar" in their terminology that I know of. Moreover, I have never
found an official reference to anything called a "1944 A.A.R. standard
design." If anyone knows of an official source where the 1944 A.A.R.
terminology exists, please advise accordingly. The "1944 AAR"
terminology was used by C&BT Shops to identify their models, but the
term is strictly a modeler's term as far as I can tell. I believe the
reference Pat Wider used in RP CYC Volume 4 (UP box car caption) is
actually incorrect. This is something the proofreader (me) should have
caught and modified. The terminology should have been either the
generic use of "postwar" (lower case "p") or to leave off the year
reference.

All subsequent references in CBCs (1949/51 through 1960) are specified
as "A.A.R. Standard box cars" and they make no distinctions of the
variety of door opening sizes, roofs, and ends that were used. Per page
72 of the 1953 CBC, the Car Construction Committee revised the standard
box car designs in 1951 to show both a 6' and 8' door opening and to
incorporate other minor structural changes (drawing shown on page 76).
The 1953 CBC also stated that in Oct. 1947 the Car Construction
Committee revised the drawings of the 40'-6" box car to change the
inside height from 10'-0" to 10'-6" because "there had been little
demand for the 10'-0" height." Perhaps SP and B&O would argue that
point.

Also during the postwar period was the widespread use of welded
underframes that had only limited usage on the cars of the 1937
designs. It's analogous to the AC&F Type 27 tank car. Once welded
underframes began being used by AC&F, the "Type 27" designation
disappeared with no new designation made, just the generic term "tank
car."

As we know, "postwar" cars of 10'-4" to 10'-6" IH used a variety of
ends and roofs over 15+ years of production. In my rosters and
writings, I have used the term "postwar A.A.R. box car" not as an
official A.A.R. term, but to refer to a family of box cars generally
built from mid-1945 (first use of the Improved Dreadnaught End that I
could find) to 1960, where we cut off the discussion per STMFC
requirements.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Dave, the problem here is that diagonal panel roofs were introduced
ca. 1948 and many of what we're in the habit of calling 1944 AAR box
cars, i.e. those with 4-4 "rolling pin taper" Improved Dreadnaught
ends, were built with diagonal panel roofs.
Them's post war cars, right? 8-)

I guess it comes down to are we trying to describe the 1944 standard
specifically or post war in general. If the former, then the roof "style"
isn't a spotting feature whereas if we're talking about the later term it
works fairly well -- not perfect, but well.

Going back to the '44 standard boxcar, I'd be looking for 40' length, ends
"more modern" than 5/5 dreadnaught, AND not a PS-1. Again, not perfect but
it serves me fairly well.

Dave Nelson


Re: What defines an AAR boxcar?

Tony Thompson
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
"Postwar" AAR: 9-4 x 10-6; 1/3/4 Improved DE
Probably we need to also divide the "rolling-pin" taper ends from the "banana-taper" ends, the latter introduced in Fall, 1954.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

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