Date   

SCO-90

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Tim Gilbert wrote
"In the early 1950's, the AAR established SCS-90 which simplified the
return routing so that DL&W would get all CIL empty cars from the NYO&W
in Scranton, and route them home via the NKP. If the empty car was owned
by, say the C&EI, NYO&W could have delivered the empty to the
D&H-PRR-C&EI or ERIE-C&EI, or LV-WAB-C&EI to get it home. (The above are
hypotheses because the only SCS-90 I have seen was the B&M's.)"
-------------------

I can give you more of the specifics of SCO-90 and a few examples of how it was applied.

SCO-90 was designed to reduce the mileage of cars following record rights. It essentially modified the car service rule that cars could be delivered to the road fron which it was received loaded excepting that a car belonging to a direct connection of the road it was on could not be delivered to a road that was an indirect connection of the owner.

Under SCO-90, each railroad was given an outlet for each foreign mark for which it did not have a direct connection. I'm not sure of this but I believe that any railroad having a box car belonging to a direct connection had to deliver it to that connection. I'll show you how it worked, using the B&M as an example. Let's look at B&M's disposition of cars with marks of FEC, SAL, N&W, SOU, L&N, SLSF, WAB, UP, GN, MILW and SP.

The B&M outlets would be
NH for SAL, FEC
D&H for SOU, WAB, SP, N&W
NYC for L&N, SLSF, GN, UP, MILW

NH's outlets for those marks could have been
PRR for SAL
B&O for FEC

PRR and B&O would have RF&P as the outlet for FEC and SAL cars
RF&P's outlet for FEC would be ACL.

D&H's outlets would have been
PRR for SOU and N&W
ERIE for WAB and SP
ERIE's outlet for SP would be ATSF

NYC's outlets would be
CB&Q for GN
RI for UP

I don't remember the specific marks, but this example is representative of how the system worked. In SCO-90 for any car with which you didn't have a direct connection, you could look up the railroad that had to accept it to get it closer to home. It designed to fairly distribute the total empty car mileage based on a massive study of actual car movements.

I wonder if there is an accessible surviving copy of SCO-90.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: MDC 50' double door single sheethed

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>
 

Actually, the July 1995 article in Railmodel Journal covered only these cars without end doors. One year later, in the July 1996 issue of the same magazine, was the article about end door versions, also written by Richard Hendrickson, and also still available from the publisher.

Brian Leppert
Carson City, NV

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:55 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] MDC 50' double door single sheethed


On Dec 13, 2006, at 6:40 PM, Robert Gross wrote:

Hello gentlemen:

I came across a few undecorated MDC 50' double door single sheethed
auto end boxcars in my to-do box. Someone mentioned that they are
correct for the Western Pacific and possible the T&P. Can anyone tell
me if they are prototypically correct for any other road? More
specifically, with paint schemes from the late 1940s. Any help would be
greatly appreciated. Thank you.
With minor modifications, they're correct for WP and T&P and, with
additional modifications, for MoPac. See my article in the July, 1995
Railmodel Journal.

Richard Hendrickson




Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: Making money with a railroad

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" Let's say the AAA RR gets an order to ship a boxcar full of shlurm from some point on their road to a point 1500 miles away on the CCC RR. To get there it must travel 500 miles on the AAA, 500 on the BBB, and 500 on the CCC.

a) Does AAA get paid the same whether it loads it's own car or someone else's?
The ownership of the car was not involved in the freight billing process in any way that I've heard of.

b) Who pays the per diem charge for the car - the road on which it sits at midnight or the road who is using it to ship a product, i.e., the AAA. (I'm pretty sure it's the former.)
In the STMFC era, i.e. before computers, it would not have been feasible to do car accounting on such a basis. The paper trails of car movement and freight billing took very different courses.

> c) I assume the BBB and CCC each get paid for hauling the equivalent of 500 car-miles across their road. Would the shipper get a bill from each RR or would AAA charge them them for 1500 car-miles and pay off the BBB and CCC as billed later?

The freight bill would be rendered by either the originating railroad or the terminating railroad, depending on whther the shipment charges were on a collect or prepaid basis. Most shipments were collect with freight billing being done by the terminating railroad. The reason for that is that the majority of freight traffic was sold FOB point of origin. The title to the goods passed top the purchaser at the time that the shipper presented the bill of lading to the originating freight agent. The purchaser was responsible for paying the freight, just as today when you usually select the shipping method and pay shipping charges when you order something. There were many exceptions, but this applies to a large majority of shipments.

There were agreed divisions of revenue among all railroads based primarily on mileage blocks with additional mileage blocks for originating and terminating carriers.

d) I also assume that there were fixed mileages (and rates?) established between various points, otherwise there'd be no incentive to move things to their destination rather than taking the grand tour. If this is true, how could RRs "sell" themselves to various shippers (as has been described on this list in the past) - wouldn't the charge to get from point A to point B be the same no matter which way it went?
Rates were usually based on short line miles. There was a separate tariff publication that showed the mileage from every station to every other station.

This brings to mind an interesting story. There was a bunch of cars every day to the east through the Chicago gateway that was routed (western roads)/Chicago/CSS&SB/Pine(In.)/NYC, etc. The South Shore's part of the haul was less than 100 miles and the route added at least a day to the transit time. It was said that the South Shore salesmen had the biggest expense accounts of any railroad.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: AAR stockcar / missing part of first post

Charles Hladik
 

Fred,
These were called "cattle prods". The ones I am familiar with (law
enforcement use) are battery powered and will certainly MOOOVE you.
Chuck Hladik


Re: Canadian box cars in the US

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

ed_mines asked:

The purpose of my original question was to find out if Canadian box
cars were found in the US in proportion to their total compared to the
US total during the box car shortage.
Ed,

No.

Tim


Canadian box cars in the US

ed_mines
 

Thanks for your answers Clark and Tim.

The purpose of my original question was to find out if Canadian box
cars were found in the US in proportion to their total compared to the
US total during the box car shortage.

The period I'm interested in was just after WWII and Canada was our
ally.

Every picture I can recall of Canadian yards or freight trains shows
almost all home road cars, i.e. few if any CP cars in CN trains and
visa versa.

Ed


boards, not planks

ed_mines
 

I made a mistake in nomenclature. I am asking about house car roofs
with "boards" on the roof.

Many of these boards visible in pictures have lost paint and are
different shades of grey.

It really doesn't matter to me if these were T&G or not, but sometimes
it looks like some of them were replaced making a section of newer
looking "boards". It doesn't matter to me if there was some sort of
barrier beneath the "boards". I just like the variation of color.

I agree that many stock cars had roofs of this type.

I think produce would rot if water dripped on it. A little bit of water
might help cool carcasses by evaporative cooling.

So which cars had these board roofs in the '40s besides Canadian 36 ft.
SS box cars, stock cars and meat reefers?

Ed


Re: AAR stockcar

Edward Dabler
 

In a message dated 12/19/2006 10:47:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
RUTLANDRS@... writes:




Thought that now was the time for a little levity.
And just how many head of cattle can be put into a forty foot car?



Only 10, after that there's more feet.
Chuck Hladik






While on the subject of levity as related to railroads, one of my father's
(who spent many years as a Roadmaster/Track supervisor on the Wabash) favorite
questions was "How many cars will a stub end siding hold?"

His answer was "Nobody knows. The hogger can just keep shoving them in."

Ed Dabler


Re: AAR stockcar

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

How do you levitate cattle? Tis the season for levitating reindeer!

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
RUTLANDRS@...
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 1:50 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: AAR stockcar

Thought that now was the time for a little levity.
And just how many head of cattle can be put into a forty foot car?



Only 10, after that there's more feet.
Chuck Hladik


Re: Making money with a railroad

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Russell Strodtz wrote:
Terminating road would collect the freight charges. Charges that were "Advanced" such as diversion, perishable service, livestock FWR, would be peeled off and paid to the party due. The rest, just like per diem, would be handled through a settlement process that only paid balances due.
Was this always true? I have seen PFE shipments on SP waybills that clearly show loads outbound to the East, originating on SP, which are marked to be paid by the shipper to SP. Is that an "advance" payment?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Making money with a railroad

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

Russ wrote:

Prepaid movements are a newer way of doing business and
in the steam era collect would be the most common form of payment.

This comment reminded me that I have a number of Yosemite Valley Railroad
forms (pre-1945) which are entitled "Freight Bill For Prepaid Charges". The
form has spaces for information on the shipper, destination, route (Via),
car number, consignee, and waybill date. There is space for the number of
Packages, Articles and Remarks along with the weight of each package and the
rate. The last column is labeled Prepaid. At the bottom of the Prepaid
column are spaces labeled "To Collect" and "Total to Collect" with a note
"Make checks payable to the company" meaning the YV.

It would seem that this form was used to record prepaid charges. Or I am
misinterpreting the use of the form or your comment?

On hopefully a related note, I also have several Freight Bills (one dated
1912 for items shipped from San Francisco [not on the YV] to Bagby for a
store near there) which has columns for listing the items carried, Weight,
Rate, Freight, and then Advances and Total. Note this is a Freight Bill and
not a Waybill. The items are listed by description then the weight and rates
are listed in the columns to the right. The weight multiplied by the rate
equals the amount in the Freight Column. Those rates are added together and
then the Advance is added which results in the Total Charges. What is the
Advance? Is that the freight charges due the railroad that moved the load
from the origin to the YV interchange?

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


Re: box car shortage rules

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Tim,
I don't have info on the car routings. But, would guess that only the
lumber products came from Canada. The cement could have come from
either the Twin Ports of Duluth, Superior, only a couple hundred miles
or Mason City, Iowa, those plants would be about the same shipping
distance, but on the same RR. I didn't look at the dates for the grain
related loads. If in the warmer months they could have been routed to
the Twin Ports. I think those guys say 'eh' more than our friends a few
miles nortt of dare, eh :)
Clark Propst
MC IA


Re: box car shortage rules

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" There is a similar principle with airlines called cabotage which holds that
a foreign airline cannot transport passengers between two US locations -
they can only take people into or out of the country.
==========

The railroad situation isn't really like cabotage. Cars between points in New England and the midwest could move freely over Canadian routes, and cars between NB and Montreal could move through the U.S. Another reason that cabotage doesn't apply is that there were no Canadian railroads between points in the U.S. or U.S. railroads between points in Canada. For example, the CP line across Maine was actually a U.S. corporation with its stock owned entirely by the Canadian company. Anyone know of any exceptions to this. GN to Vancouver ?

The specific rule on Canadian cars was that if not returned empty they had to be loaded to or via Canada. Someone may want to check me on this, but I believe that a shipment between Chicago and Portland routed GTW/CN/GT could be loaded in a Canadian car.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Making money with a railroad

Russell Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Tony,

Close but no cigar. Prepaid movements are a newer way of doing business and
in the steam era collect would be the most common form of payment.

The fact that three roads are handling the car equal distances does not mean
each would get the same revenue. The "Divisions" were also part of the
tariff structure.

As I think was mentioned elsewhere if the route was not in the routing
tariff then it would be financial suicide to ship it that way. Each road
would bill the car on a local or intrastate rate.

Terminating road would collect the freight charges. Charges that were
"Advanced" such as diversion, perishable service, livestock FWR, would
be peeled off and paid to the party due. The rest, just like per diem, would
be handled through a settlement process that only paid balances due.
There were of course some special circumstances like the pool roads that
divided the Eastbound UP traffic revenue without taking into account who
handled it. That would be handled in a settlement all by itself.

As some roads got financially desperate they would cheat the system.
Once had a car of fertilizer that had been billed to a point on the
St Paul. Had been diverted before they had handled the car. Kept working on
finding the revenue waybill. Finally talked to someone in Milwaukee and they
had gotten the waybill in the mail and immediately taken it into account.
Asked the guy how they could do that on a movement that they had not
handled. He laughed and said that all they were supposed to be doing is
generating revenue. If they lost it later through the claims or settlement
process it didn't matter because they had been able to use it for some
period of time and would drag their feet on the settlement process.

High finance as applied to railroading.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, 18 December, 2006 20:02
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Making money with a railroad


> c) I assume the BBB and CCC each get paid for hauling the equivalent
> of 500 car-miles across their road. Would the shipper get a bill from
> each RR or would AAA charge them them for 1500 car-miles and pay off
> the BBB and CCC as billed later?

The shipper pays AAA, and AAA pays BBB and CCC. Imagine the
amount of paperwork for all the cargoes over all the railroads.


Re: common cars with planked roofs

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
But... cars with a wood upper surface on the roof most often did not have lateral running boards to the ladder locations; the trainmen were expected to walk on the roof boards. Photos of the Soo Line stockcars taken in the early sixties show the same arrangement; running boards, but no laterals, the corner grabs are just bolted to the roof sheathing.
True. I haven't seen a single car from that era with laterals. The reefer story is a somewhat different issue and has been explored in detail several places.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: common cars with planked roofs

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
So early cars didn't have roofwalks at all, the brakemen just walked
on the roof (or what appeared to be the roof)?
No. There are 1867 Central Pacific photos which clearly show
running boards, and the roofs appear to be OUTSIDE metal roofs. One of
these photos is in my SP Freight Cars, Vol. 4. The great majority of
cars in subsequent years DID have running boards to provide a level
walking surface.
But... cars with a wood upper surface on the roof most often did not
have lateral running boards to the ladder locations; the trainmen were
expected to walk on the roof boards. Photos of the Soo Line stockcars
taken in the early sixties show the same arrangement; running boards,
but no laterals, the corner grabs are just bolted to the roof sheathing.

Reefers with inside metal roofs typically didn't have separate
platforms around the hatches. Reefers with OUTSIDE METAL ROOFS (which
were light gauge sheet metal over wood decking) typically had wood
platforms around the hatches, both to provide footing and protect the
roof from being beaten to death by blocks of ice. When these cars were
re-roofed with all steel roofs like the Hutchins Dry Lading,
Chicago-Cleveland Zenith, or SOLID STEEL roofs, the platforms went
away again, because the heavier gauge steel was judged to be able to
take the abuse. Many operators of reefers sanded the roof paint, at
least around the hatches, for better footing.

Dennis


Re: AAR stockcar

Douglas Harding
 

Thanks to Ben, Charlie and Richard for providing the correct information I
was seeking. I knew the BLI was a unique Pennsy design, but wanted to be
sure before responding on the list where the AAR comment was posted. Now
that I am better informed, I can respond correctly.

Doug Harding
Iowa Central Railroad
www.iowacentralrr.org

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3:17 PM


Re: MDC 50' double door single sheethed

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Please allow me to note that many (MANY!) model railroad magazines are available from the North
Shore Model Railroad Club. See www.nsmrc.org. Low prices.

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Robert Gross
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 8:17 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: MDC 50' double door single sheethed

Richard:

I looked online and on eBay for a copy of the RMJ that you speak of.
Unfortunately, I came up empty handed. Would it be too much to ask of
you to make a copy of your article and snail mail it to me... Pretty
please?

Robert Gross
NH 0400

--- In STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Dec 13, 2006, at 6:40 PM, Robert Gross wrote:

Hello gentlemen:

I came across a few undecorated MDC 50' double door single
sheethed
auto end boxcars in my to-do box. Someone mentioned that they are
correct for the Western Pacific and possible the T&P. Can anyone
tell
me if they are prototypically correct for any other road? More
specifically, with paint schemes from the late 1940s. Any help
would be
greatly appreciated. Thank you.
With minor modifications, they're correct for WP and T&P and, with
additional modifications, for MoPac. See my article in the July,
1995
Railmodel Journal.

Richard Hendrickson




Re: common cars with planked roofs

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
So early cars didn't have roofwalks at all, the brakemen just walked on the roof (or what appeared to be the roof)?
No. There are 1867 Central Pacific photos which clearly show running boards, and the roofs appear to be OUTSIDE metal roofs. One of these photos is in my SP Freight Cars, Vol. 4. The great majority of cars in subsequent years DID have running boards to provide a level walking surface.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: common cars with planked roofs

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
DOUBLE BOARD ROOFS The older of the two, it is just what the name implies, two layers of boards with the joints staggered . . .
Often with some kind of "waterproof" layer, such as tarpaper, between the layers. This usage goes back at least as far as 1880. Dennis is right about the grooving to direct water flow, which was often retained even with a "waterproof" layer.

INSIDE METAL ROOFS The inside metal roof, which consisted of light gauge metal panels fitted between the carlines, and a T&G board covering . . .
As these were thin-gauge steel sheet, they were often applied between two board layers. That was certainly the widespread arrangement by 1900 for "inside" roofs. Otherwise the sheet metal had to be attached to the bottom of the board roof.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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