Date   

Re: Flat Cars Or Tank Cars?

original_coaster <sfdanas@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Bob Chaparro" <thecitrusbelt@...> wrote:

Here is an image of cars once used to transport spring water from San
Bernardino, CA, to an Arrowhead water plant in Los Angeles.

http://jpg2.lapl.org/pics27/00048072.jpg

I believe this is a Los Angeles Public Library Image.

Now my question. Are these cars considered flat cars or tank cars?
The tank sections appear to lack reporting marks, if that matters.

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro
Mission Viejo/Hemet, CA
As I recall it, the cars were never used in interchange service,
running strictly on PE trackage, which would explain the lack of
reporting marks.

-- Paul


Re: Flat Cars Or Tank Cars?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bob Chaparro wrote:
Here is an image of cars once used to transport spring water from San Bernardino, CA, to an Arrowhead water plant in Los Angeles. Now my question. Are these cars considered flat cars or tank cars? The tank sections appear to lack reporting marks, if that matters.
The cars still have their PE flat car numbers. If you look in Equipment Registers, these appear as flat cars, but PE did list them in some periods as tank cars--clearly homemade ones, since the flat cars are a lot older.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Flat Cars Or Tank Cars?

Bob Chaparro <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

Here is an image of cars once used to transport spring water from San
Bernardino, CA, to an Arrowhead water plant in Los Angeles.

http://jpg2.lapl.org/pics27/00048072.jpg

I believe this is a Los Angeles Public Library Image.

Now my question. Are these cars considered flat cars or tank cars?
The tank sections appear to lack reporting marks, if that matters.

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro
Mission Viejo/Hemet, CA


Hide Loading stencils

leakinmywaders
 

NP boxcars relegated to hide service received a simple stencil:

HIDE
LOADING
ONLY

in white, plain block letters about 5 inches in height. This
stencil appears to be lacking from NP decal sets, and Richard Yaremko
and I have compared notes and are having a hard time finding a source
in HO Scale. Anyone know of an available sheet with such a stencil?

Thanks, and Season's Greetings,

Chris Frissell
Polson, MT


The Texas Co and The Southwestern Refining Co.

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

This may be a dumb answer, but wouldn't General American work? Or is there more to it than that?

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Hendrickson" <rhendrickson@...>

[answering]

On Dec 19, 2006, at 12:52 PM, Tom Lawler :

[wrote]

Some years ago, I addressed a similar question regarding the possible
use of a W&R 3 compartment AC&F Type 7 on my 1947 diorama. I found
that the Texaco cars disappeared from the TCX entries in the ORERs in
the 1930s, either sold second hand or absorbed into the General
American roster (General American had by that time taken over ownership
of the TCX cars and was leasing them back to Texaco). Southwestern
Refining Co. had disappeared in the flurry of petroleum company mergers
and buyouts that took place in the 1920s/early 1930s. Other owners of
the cars also had disposed of them by the late 1940s, so I wasn't able
to find a single valid prototype for the late 1940s. If someone on
this list knows of one, I � like Tom Lawler � would sure like to hear
about it.,

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Practical use for model box cars

Doug Rhodes
 

Canada-US grain trade is a complex issue, and in recent times rather more heat than light has been shed around it due to issues of a political nature, which are out of scope for STMFC. However, some basic facts may be helpful in understanding trade and transportation patterns, and deciding how to "reload" those models of Canadian boxcars on US steam-era layouts.

While one might like to think that "grain is grain" in fact there are various kinds of grains (wheat, oats, barley etc) and within each there are various varieties, grades etc. Since wheat is by far the most important, this note will be made briefer by focusing on wheat.

Canada is a much smaller producer of wheat than the US, and is not among the largest world producers. However, Canada's small population uses only about a third of its wheat production, so Canada has a reliable surplus available for export. Canada is the world's leading exporter of hard red spring wheat and durum (used for pasta), which are premium products that sell for a premium price. However, Canada's wheat exports in the STMFC era accounted for only about 20 per cent of world wheat trade, compared to the US with around 40-45%. Both these figures have been dropping in recent years (beyond the scope of STMFC.)

The US gets around 3 per cent of its wheat from imports, nearly all of it from Canada, and nearly all of it in the premium grades of hard red spring and durum. This is used to make semolina for pasta and as a blending feedstock to raise the protein content of flours made from lesser-protein-content domestic US wheat. Six US states account for over half the usage of Canadian wheat, being Minnesota, New York, Illinois, Ohio, Missouri and Virginia. In our era of interest, modest numbers of boxcars bearing Canadian wheat (some Canadian cars, some returning US cars) could reasonably be modeled inbound to such facilities.

Canada does not import significant quantities of wheat, in the order of a tenth of a per cent to a half of a per cent of its exports depending on the year chosen for review. Some wheat does move from the US to Canada but in such tiny amounts that it would have to be considered very atypical.

So the answer to the question about "reloading" a model Canadian boxcar with wheat to be sent back to Canada ... well, it's not impossible, but likely to be a pretty rare occurrence in real life.

Doug Rhodes

----- Original Message -----
From: ljack70117@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 1:38 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Practical use for model box cars


I understand that Canada can only grow spring wheat. Because of their
very cold winters. I worked for International Milling Co in Salina
Ks. Most of the wheat grown in the good ol US of A is winter wheat.
If you want a good patent flour you use winter wheat with about 10%
of spring wheat in it. So if Canada is going to grind good flour they
need to import winter wheat.
The difference in the two wheats you may ask is winter wheat is
planted in the fall and the spring wheat is planted in the spring of
the year. Winter wheat is the better of the two
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...

On Dec 20, 2006, at 4:06 PM, cj riley wrote:

> Clark,
>
> I don't know for a fact, but I would be very surprised if
> the US would be shipping grain to Canada, one of the world's major
> grain
> producers. Canada has been exporting grain for probably a hundred
> years. Anyone
> have the facts on this?
>
> CJ Riley
>
> --- rockroll50401 <cepropst@...> wrote:
>
>> ROAD NAME NUMBER CAR TYPE LOAD TO Manufr
>> CN 475916 Box Paper Incline IM/Sylvan
>> CN 414593 Box Lumber Builders/MC L Westfld
>> CP 236378 Box Lumber Builders/MC L Tichy
>>
>>
>> To put all these recent information to practical use I currently have
>> three Canadian box cars out of a fleet of over 100 box cars. The
>> first model is numbered for an actual car that was on the RR with a
>> load of paper. It is an Intermountain car with a Sylvan flat panel
>> roof and the ends that are similar to those on a PS1, but with
>> vertical strap like protrusions. The second model (Westerfield) 36'
>> SS, I most have picked up at a swap meet because I have no info on
>> that number series, so I gave the car a load of lumber. The last car
>> (Tichy) single sheath is also numbered for a car that was on the RR
>> with the correct load.
>>
>> I have two lumber yards I can spot the cars of lumber at to unload
>> and a ramp to unload the paper. Big question: Then what? Do I reload
>> them with cement, feed, fertilizer, or grain and send them back
>> north? If so, do I weigh them? The cement, feed, fertilizer are all
>> bagged, I know they didn't weigh the bagged cement, how `bout the
>> grain? Probably not. Or, do I send them north empty?
>>
>> Thanks to all who answer,
>> Clark Propst
>> MC IA
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


Re: box car shortage rules

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Laughlin

Posted by: "Kurt Laughlin" There is a similar principle with airlines called cabotage which holds that
a foreign airline cannot transport passengers between two US locations -
they can only take people into or out of the country.
==========

The railroad situation isn't really like cabotage. Cars between points in New England and the midwest could move freely over Canadian routes, and cars between NB and Montreal could move through the U.S. Another reason that cabotage doesn't apply is that there were no Canadian railroads between points in the U.S. or U.S. railroads between points in Canada. For example, the CP line across Maine was actually a U.S. corporation with its stock owned entirely by the Canadian company. Anyone know of any exceptions to this. GN to Vancouver ?

The specific rule on Canadian cars was that if not returned empty they had to be loaded to or via Canada. Someone may want to check me on this, but I believe that a shipment between Chicago and Portland routed GTW/CN/GT could be loaded in a Canadian car.
----- Original Message -----

Well, I did say "similar" :-)

Actually, if you consider airliners as airborne cattle cars (which they pretty much are these days. . .) cabotage sounds quite like the railroad situation. A plane can be loaded in Maine and fly over Canada on its way to Minneapolis or Seattle. I believe they could even stop there so long as no one gets on or off. And, if a Canadian airliner has no passengers booked on the trip from Miami to Toronto, it flies empty. It can't be used to take passengers to Buffalo first.

KL


Re: Canadian box cars in the US

armprem
 

----- Original Message -----
From: <tgregmrtn@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 8:18 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Canadian box cars in the US


I like what Marty's saying here. I think one should focus on the "appearance" based on you area of the railroad you model. You should think of what types of industries your area/era represents and think in terms of what inbounds/out bounds you need to represent. (avoid reloading Canadian cars) If you have no produce houses/warehouses ask yourself why have so many other than those that cycle through on through trains, the same fits for several kinds of cars. Why have a flat car(s) of lumber on those RC SP flats if you don't have a lumber yard, especially one that bought/sold green/dry Douglas Fir, Hemlock or Western Red Cedar or Redwood. Certainly, a car load of Eastern Canadian SPF would rarely if ever show up in SOuthern California or Southern Yellow Pine... There was no market for those products there (and still is little or none), but the eastern seaboard is a different story, but western species were/are very common. Think in terms of eastern coal... Steel is another stor
y especially during the mid to late 50s, think of those bridges being built during the bustling Interstate Highway years... Marty, I think, has it right. Don't base all your modeling on percentages. But I do have a nice photo of a PRR G25 gondola being loaded with heavy timbers somewhere here in the PNW taken by the West Coast Lumber Inspection Bureau company photographer... maybe those nasty guys on the SP&S (OE) who stole all those cars and got themselves in trouble with the AAR... 3^)

Greg Martin

Marty McGuirk writes:



I also know that we should be looking to model the appearance of the trains, not trying to nail down some percentage with the hope that will translate onto our layouts as the right look for the trains.
Marty McGuirk<


.
_I like Marty's thinking here _,_._,___
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Re: common cars with planked roofs

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
So early cars didn't have roofwalks at all, the brakemen just walked
on the roof (or what appeared to be the roof)?
No. There are 1867 Central Pacific photos which clearly show
running boards, and the roofs appear to be OUTSIDE metal roofs. One of
these photos is in my SP Freight Cars, Vol. 4. The great majority of
cars in subsequent years DID have running boards to provide a level
walking surface.
----- Original Message -----

That's what I thought, but the previous message: ". . . Of course, including running
boards and lateral platforms at the ladders solved the problem of trainmen slipping . . ." sounded like running boards weren't introduced except as a remedy for exposed metal roofing problems.

Thx,
KL


Re: Making money with a railroad

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

Thanks everyone for the responses.

Geez, what an arcane system - no wonder railroads went out of business.

I realize that the ICC had a part to play in maintaining that byzantine system, but I recall from White's book on American freight cars that the railroads were quite capable of coming up with bizarre systems on their own, decades before there was an ICC.

From a business standpoint, I can't see how it was tolerated for so long. First off, it created - nay, required - a "priesthood" to interpret the rate structures for everyone else. This amounted to large group of non-value added employees that drove up costs. Secondly and maybe most importantly, it denied cost certainty to the customers. With all the options, the prepaying, and the collect charges on top of the unpredictable nature of actual delivery, a small to medium business not only didn't know when something was going to show up, they didn't know how much they would be charged when it got there. Were there any champions of the idea that "carrying 100 tons 100 miles costs the same whether it's coal, flour, or steel" before, say, the 1960's?

Thanks again,
KL


Re: Canadian box cars in the US

Greg Martin
 

I like what Marty's saying here. I think one should focus on the "appearance" based on you area of the railroad you model. You should think of what types of industries your area/era represents and think in terms of what inbounds/out bounds you need to represent. (avoid reloading Canadian cars) If you have no produce houses/warehouses ask yourself why have so many other than those that cycle through on through trains, the same fits for several kinds of cars. Why have a flat car(s) of lumber on those RC SP flats if you don't have a lumber yard, especially one that bought/sold green/dry Douglas Fir, Hemlock or Western Red Cedar or Redwood. Certainly, a car load of Eastern Canadian SPF would rarely if ever show up in SOuthern California or Southern Yellow Pine... There was no market for those products there (and still is little or none), but the eastern seaboard is a different story, but western species were/are very common. Think in terms of eastern coal... Steel is another story especially during the mid to late 50s, think of those bridges being built during the bustling Interstate Highway years... Marty, I think, has it right. Don't base all your modeling on percentages. But I do have a nice photo of a PRR G25 gondola being loaded with heavy timbers somewhere here in the PNW taken by the West Coast Lumber Inspection Bureau company photographer... maybe those nasty guys on the SP&S (OE) who stole all those cars and got themselves in trouble with the AAR... 3^)

Greg Martin

Marty McGuirk writes:



I also know that we should be looking to model the appearance of the trains, not trying to nail down some percentage with the hope that will translate onto our layouts as the right look for the trains.
Marty McGuirk<


.
_I like Marty's thinking here _,_._,___
________________________________________________________________________
Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail and more.


Re: Canadian box cars in the US

armprem
 

While this was not CV, on 12/18/1950 there were ten CN box cars out of a total of fifty thee cars on Rutland train #9.All were loads.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: <mjmcguirk@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Cc: "Tim Gilbert" <tgilbert@...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:56 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Canadian box cars in the US


Don Burn wrote:

On the ratio Canadian box cars what was the ratio on the US subsidiaries,
such as the Central Vermont, and the CP operations in New England? Was
there a higher percentage on these roads?
Based on photo evidence (I've got one or two pictures of CV trains) there was a noticeable percentage of CN cars on the CV in the 1950s -- especially on CV train 430 from Montreal to New London. These were primarily used to haul newsprint (no. 430 was called the "Newsboy" for good reason) --

I'm not sure if this would translate to a some sort of system-wide percentage -- but I do know the CV did not have a huge roster of home road cars (and a CV boxcar showing up in a CV train, while not impossible, is certainly different enough to stick out) -- (thankfully) blowing that old "home road should be 50% of the roster" model railroady rule all to heck . . .

I also know that we should be looking to model the appearance of the trains, not trying to nail down some percentage with the hope that will translate onto our layouts as the right look for the trains. Therefore, a model of CV Train 430 should have a noticeably large percentage of CN boxcars -- just as a model of Train 490, which was a Chicago-New London routing via the CN -- should have a noticeable block of reefers on the head end.

That to me is far more effective than trying to tie the percentage of cars on our model railroads to a national, regional, or local percentage.

Marty McGuirk





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Re: AAR stockcar

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Dec 20, 2006, at 1:37 PM, Tim O'Connor cf5250 wrote:

Yes, I think so too. Evidently NO ONE actually built an AAR stock
car after the spec was written based on the UP S-40-12?
Tim, new stock cars of any design were very rare after WW II. Almost all RRs that needed stock cars had a generous supply of obsolete box cars which could easily be converted into stock cars, and there's a long list of RRs that did exactly that, from ATSF to Wabash.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Car movements

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "Russell Strodtz" sheridan@... theloweryard Wed Dec 20, 2006 7:11 am (PST) Rupert,

As to ORER's there were many tariffs that involved minimums and took into
account the capacity of a furnished car. The ORER was the only official
publication that could be cited.

As to the exact numbers with fractions there are those that like to go to
that extreme.

As to the concept of publishing the dimensions at all it did serve a
purpose. A factory loading appliances packed in cardboard cartons was very
concerned about interior width and height. If they could steer their contact
to only order or spot cars that they could use it helped both them and the
carrier.

I have mentioned that I viewed the whole process as "pragmatic and
practical". That does not mean that you gave the Customer cars that they can
not load to their satisfaction. Did a little trace on a car last night.
Was loaded with some type of forest product at Longview TX for a building
materials company in La Crosse WI. When empty it was spotted at City Brewing
and loaded with Malt Liquor for Coors at Golden CO. That is a lot of
revenue for an empty haul of about five miles. Both Customers got what they
wanted and needed. Was this an assigned car? Probably not. These days more
and more cars are assigned to commodity pools with no specific loading
point.

Russ
A couple of questions relating to rates and ORER's.

Were the per diem rates fixed solely by the individual railroad, by
agreement or by regulatory imposition? I suspect the latter, thereby
avoiding price wars (noting recent comments about competing on service or
whisky bottles!).

However they were fixed, did these rates take into account the size of the
car, cubic capacity, etc? The picture I have gained over the last three
years of posts (especially from those who actually worked in the yards)
was
that little consideration was given to the dimensions of the car being
assigned, as long as it was long/wide/high enough,, etc. This then begs
the
question as to why car owners showed the dimensions in the ORER's down to
the nearest sixteenth of an inch, or the cubic capacity to the nearest
cubic
foot.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Practical use for model box cars

ljack70117@...
 

I understand that Canada can only grow spring wheat. Because of their very cold winters. I worked for International Milling Co in Salina Ks. Most of the wheat grown in the good ol US of A is winter wheat. If you want a good patent flour you use winter wheat with about 10% of spring wheat in it. So if Canada is going to grind good flour they need to import winter wheat.
The difference in the two wheats you may ask is winter wheat is planted in the fall and the spring wheat is planted in the spring of the year. Winter wheat is the better of the two
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...

On Dec 20, 2006, at 4:06 PM, cj riley wrote:

Clark,

I don't know for a fact, but I would be very surprised if
the US would be shipping grain to Canada, one of the world's major grain
producers. Canada has been exporting grain for probably a hundred years. Anyone
have the facts on this?

CJ Riley

--- rockroll50401 <cepropst@...> wrote:

ROAD NAME NUMBER CAR TYPE LOAD TO Manufr
CN 475916 Box Paper Incline IM/Sylvan
CN 414593 Box Lumber Builders/MC L Westfld
CP 236378 Box Lumber Builders/MC L Tichy


To put all these recent information to practical use I currently have
three Canadian box cars out of a fleet of over 100 box cars. The
first model is numbered for an actual car that was on the RR with a
load of paper. It is an Intermountain car with a Sylvan flat panel
roof and the ends that are similar to those on a PS1, but with
vertical strap like protrusions. The second model (Westerfield) 36'
SS, I most have picked up at a swap meet because I have no info on
that number series, so I gave the car a load of lumber. The last car
(Tichy) single sheath is also numbered for a car that was on the RR
with the correct load.

I have two lumber yards I can spot the cars of lumber at to unload
and a ramp to unload the paper. Big question: Then what? Do I reload
them with cement, feed, fertilizer, or grain and send them back
north? If so, do I weigh them? The cement, feed, fertilizer are all
bagged, I know they didn't weigh the bagged cement, how `bout the
grain? Probably not. Or, do I send them north empty?

Thanks to all who answer,
Clark Propst
MC IA



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Re: AAR stockcar

Tim O'Connor
 

--- benjaminfrank_hom wrote

Contrary to what I posted earlier today, the D&RGW cars were not
built to this design. D&RGW 36400-36499, built in 1955, were Pratt
truss double-deck cars.
The GN didn't build any cars to this design, preferring to convert
stock cars from SS and DS boxcars. All of the conversions were
Pratt truss cars.
Thanks.

That was the source of my confusion -- the GN and DRGW cars had
Pratt trusses, and I mistakenly thought they followed the AAR spec.

At first glance, CB&Q 52700-53199, Class SM-19B looks close ...
Yes, I think so too. Evidently NO ONE actually built an AAR stock
car after the spec was written based on the UP S-40-12?

Tim


Re: Car movements

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Further on Rupert’s questions and Russ’s response.

> As to ORER's there were many tariffs that involved minimums and
> took into account the capacity of a furnished car. The ORER was
> the only official publication that could be cited.

The RER was actually a tariff subject to the same publication rules and regulation as other tariffs. Nearly all freight rate tariffs made reference to the RER.

There were published rates that related to the capacity of the car or specified a car type or dimension. For example, when a rate specified “loaded to full visible capacity”, the defined capacity for a car came from the RER.

> Were the per diem rates fixed solely by the individual railroad, by
agreement or by regulatory imposition?

It was simple in the steam era. Multi-level per diem, hourly car hire, regulatory interference, etc. all came after the mid 60’s. There was a single per diem rate for all railroads, set by the AAR. That goes back into ancient history. It was diffcult to make a change in the rate because it required a vote of the railroads, weighted by size. Big eastern roads had the most weight and tended to resist increases.

> why car owners showed the dimensions in the ORER's down to
the nearest sixteenth of an inch, or the cubic capacity to the nearest
cubic foot.

The numbers came from the mechanical department, which needed to have the numbers to that level of accuracy to have they car built. The answer to your question in many cases may simply be if you have the exact number why bother to round it.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Practical use for model box cars

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

Clark,

I don't know for a fact, but I would be very surprised if
the US would be shipping grain to Canada, one of the world's major grain
producers. Canada has been exporting grain for probably a hundred years. Anyone
have the facts on this?

CJ Riley

--- rockroll50401 <cepropst@...> wrote:

ROAD NAME NUMBER CAR TYPE LOAD TO Manufr
CN 475916 Box Paper Incline IM/Sylvan
CN 414593 Box Lumber Builders/MC L Westfld
CP 236378 Box Lumber Builders/MC L Tichy


To put all these recent information to practical use I currently have
three Canadian box cars out of a fleet of over 100 box cars. The
first model is numbered for an actual car that was on the RR with a
load of paper. It is an Intermountain car with a Sylvan flat panel
roof and the ends that are similar to those on a PS1, but with
vertical strap like protrusions. The second model (Westerfield) 36'
SS, I most have picked up at a swap meet because I have no info on
that number series, so I gave the car a load of lumber. The last car
(Tichy) single sheath is also numbered for a car that was on the RR
with the correct load.

I have two lumber yards I can spot the cars of lumber at to unload
and a ramp to unload the paper. Big question: Then what? Do I reload
them with cement, feed, fertilizer, or grain and send them back
north? If so, do I weigh them? The cement, feed, fertilizer are all
bagged, I know they didn't weigh the bagged cement, how `bout the
grain? Probably not. Or, do I send them north empty?

Thanks to all who answer,
Clark Propst
MC IA



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Re: Practical use for model box cars

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

The elevators I worked in had certified scales and the scale tickets
went to the railroad when shipping.

P Scheuerman
Are you talking about the scale inside the elevator structure? If I
remember correctly they used a 'batch' type scale at the top of the
internal grain leg.
Thanks I forgot about those,
Clark Propst


Re: Practical use for model box cars

oracle1728 <pscheuerman@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...> wrote:

Clark,

The elevators I worked in had certified scales and the scale tickets
went to the railroad when shipping.

P Scheuerman


To put all these recent information to practical use I currently have
I know they didn't weigh the bagged cement, how `bout the
grain? Probably not. Or, do I send them north empty?

Thanks to all who answer,
Clark Propst
MC IA

134901 - 134920 of 193574