Date   

Re: Pennzoil tankers? (Now Gramps)

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jan 16, 2007, at 7:20 AM, coronadoscalemodels wrote:

If it was so difficult to convert a Van Dyke car to AB brakes, then why
did the quaint Santa Fe car shown on page 100 of "Santa Fe Tank Cars -
Vol. Five" (by Richard Hendrickson) have AB brakes? Did the Santa Fe
puchase this loan car with them, or did they spend the time and money
themselves to convert it to AB for work train service?
For some reason – I'm not sure why – Stan seems to be looking for an
argument here. Obviously it was possible to apply AB brakes to a Van
Dyke tank car, as is evidenced by the photo he cites. However, AFAIK
there are NO extant photos of Class V or VV tank cars in UTL revenue
service with AB brakes. Furthermore, all of the Van Dyke cars were off
the UTL roster by August, 1953, the AAR deadline requiring AB brakes on
all cars in interchange, and that's hardly a coincidence. By that time
the Van Dyke tank cars were between forty and fifty years old and the
mounting of AB equipment on them would have required cleaning the tanks
and drilling holes through the thick bottom sheets, as well as
fabricating the mountings themselves and the necessary plumbing,
certainly a more elaborate project than was required where there was a
center sill to which mountings could be bolted or welded, as on the
similar Class X cars. For economic reasons, UTL obviously decided to
retire the Class V and VV cars rather than equip them with AB brakes.

As for the car in the photo in my Santa Fe tank car book, its Arch Bar
trucks are proof that it left UTL ownership and went into MW service,
either on the Santa Fe or some smaller RR from which the Santa Fe
acquired it, at some time before the 1941 AAR ban on arch bar trucks in
interchange. So whoever put AB brakes on it, it wasn't UTL. Putting
AB brakes on a single car in MW service was a very different matter
from doing it on several hundred cars which were obsolete for revenue
service and approaching retirement age in any case.

Now, Stan, what was your point again?

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Ancient photos in color

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Tony Thompson wrote:
A colorized photo is
distinctly different. When I lived in England for a year, I attended
the British Region NMRA convention, and happened to win one of the
door prizes. It was a very nice water color of a Santa Fe passenger
train ascending Cajon Pass, with beautifully rendered steam and
smoke. But there was one problem: the artist had portrayed the Santa
Fe passenger cars in tuscan--not knowing any better. How different is
the colorization of, say, 1900-era freight cars?
AFAIK, no different.

Dave Nelson


Re: photography

rfederle@...
 

Took the words right out of my mouth ...er... fingers. I can understand and appreciate an image that is adjusted to improve detail, etc.

Beat me to it.

Robert Federle

in darkrooms, from lightening a shadow at one side of a photo, to
airbrushing out a tree. Somewhere in that gradient it goes from an
"improved image" to an "altered image." And in Photoshop we could put
two Half Domes in our photo of Yosemite Valley. In my personal view,
that's a little beyond "darkroom enhancement."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Ancient photos in color

rfederle@...
 

I agree. When modelling we look to the photo for reference and expect that to be the true image. If colorized it could alte the way a person views that image and maybe be misled in to thinking something is a particular color when is it not. I think if the photo was black and white it should be black and white. I do not however have a problem as long as the image is captioned as an alteration. As steted below, even images in color can mislead somewhat but the angle it was composed with, the surrounding light (daylight, overcast, indoors, outdoors etc)>

let people know if it has been altered.

Robert Federle
---- Tony Thompson <thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Dave Nelson wrote:
For myself, I see nothing different between colorizing a photo and
colorizing a plastic or resin model. The issues of accuracy by the
artist and misperceptions by the viewer are common to both "media".
Other than expecting everything to be labeled "Artistic Interpretation
of Color" what can you do other than be doubtful and always ask some
questions.
Ah, but we build models from authoritative historical sources:
often photographs. Of course we have to interpret coloration for model
sizes and lighting, but many are accustomed to seeing a photo as
"authentic" in some sense. As we have discussed here more than once,
time of day, season, cloud cover, and angle of view strongly affect the
tonal values of color photographs, but at least they are photos of
actual colored objects. A colorized photo is distinctly different.
When I lived in England for a year, I attended the British
Region NMRA convention, and happened to win one of the door prizes. It
was a very nice water color of a Santa Fe passenger train ascending
Cajon Pass, with beautifully rendered steam and smoke. But there was
one problem: the artist had portrayed the Santa Fe passenger cars in
tuscan--not knowing any better. How different is the colorization of,
say, 1900-era freight cars?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: photography

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Photoshopping has made life a lot easier for me. I've been able to re-letter models for ads without building a new kit. I've also been able to add details to enhance a model by copying them from one and overlaying them on another. - Al Westerfield


Re: Various

Tony Thompson
 

Jim Eckman wrote:
I entered two versions of the exact same car that I had scratchbuilt into the local NMRA meet. One was really ratty looking and heavily weathered and the other one was very lightly weathered with a fairly new appearance. The ratty car won first place and garnered about 10x the votes of the 'new' car.
Narrow gaugers are not the only ones who like grungy cars!
The formal NMRA contest has a point scale for "Finish," including weathering, and the more you do, provided it is done well, the more points you can and should get. To the extent that your voters were responding in a similar way, it's not just an issue of "liking" the car.
But in general, popular vote contests are another matter. To win one, I'd recommend that you do a work train, which permits you to make mini-scenes on flat cars, with figures doing things, and much funky equipment on those flat cars. The modeling may not be as good as a "straight" freight train right next to your work train, but it's far more interesting to a viewer. A viewer, that is, who doesn't necessarily know much about high-standard research or modeling and, in an NMRA context, is likely a "Fun Purist," as Stan Pearce termed them.
In my view, this is not very relevant to the issue of narrow-gauge researchers nor of prototype fidelity of standard-gauge cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: photography

Tony Thompson
 

Andy Sperandeo wrote:
A photographer friend of mine took a course in Ansel Adams' studio, and was enlightened when he learned how many of the great photographer's masterpieces benefited from darkroom enhancement. There's always been a conflict of interest between those who expect photography to be an impartial recording and those who use it as an art. It appears to me that among photography's practitioners, art has the upper hand.
Very true, Andy, and well worth pointing out. But we have to keep in mind that there is a whole gradient of things which may be done in darkrooms, from lightening a shadow at one side of a photo, to airbrushing out a tree. Somewhere in that gradient it goes from an "improved image" to an "altered image." And in Photoshop we could put two Half Domes in our photo of Yosemite Valley. In my personal view, that's a little beyond "darkroom enhancement."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Editorial: Man vs. Machine

Tony Thompson
 

Ben Hom wrote:
This thought-provoking editorial is posted on a Scale Modeling website, but its premise certainly applies to the study of steam-era freight cars:
http://modelingmadness.com/stanseditorial.htm
Man, this one is scary, and Ben is definitely right that it contains only a few details separating it from freight cars (or model railroading). All modeling list moderators should certainly read it. Luckily <g>, the "Fun Purists" on this list have been largely beaten into submission <bigger G>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Editorial: Man vs. Machine

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

And almost every other area of human endeavor.
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni



From: benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Reply-To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 17:32:16 -0000
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [STMFC] Editorial: Man vs. Machine





This thought-provoking editorial is posted on a Scale Modeling
website, but its premise certainly applies to the study of steam-era
freight cars:
http://modelingmadness.com/stanseditorial.htm

Ben Hom


Evils of Colorization and PhotoShop

Charlie Vlk
 

Even an unaltered print from an original negative or a slide can be deceptive.... because of the characteristics of different films and value, tone and color shifts due to age.
Even images captured at different times of the day under relatively the same weather conditions will appear differently....in B&W or Color.
Yes, it is possible to skillfully "fake" a photo so that a Santa Fe Waycar could be convincingly presented in NYC Pacemaker colors trailing a freight along the Hudson.... but we've had to deal with checking the authenticity of photos (and drawings and other source material) a long time prior to the invention of the computer....
I have seen official railroad photos that were convincingly airbrushed to present proposed lettering schemes ("The National Park LIne on a XM32 Burlington Route Boxcar) and a "Picture WIndow" variation on a NE12 (Streamlined Cupola) waycar.
I am sure that most collectors/railroad historians have run across such "bogus" material.... and they weren't created for the purpose of deception!!
Charlie Vlk


Re: photgraphy

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

A photographer friend of mine took a course in Ansel Adams' studio, and was
enlightened when he learned how many of the great photographer's
masterpieces benefited from darkroom enhancement. There's always been a
conflict of interest between those who expect photography to be an impartial
recording and those who use it as an art. It appears to me that among
photography's practitioners, art has the upper hand.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@mrmag.com
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


Re: Ancient photos in color

Tony Thompson
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
For myself, I see nothing different between colorizing a photo and colorizing a plastic or resin model. The issues of accuracy by the artist and misperceptions by the viewer are common to both "media". Other than expecting everything to be labeled "Artistic Interpretation of Color" what can you do other than be doubtful and always ask some questions.
Ah, but we build models from authoritative historical sources: often photographs. Of course we have to interpret coloration for model sizes and lighting, but many are accustomed to seeing a photo as "authentic" in some sense. As we have discussed here more than once, time of day, season, cloud cover, and angle of view strongly affect the tonal values of color photographs, but at least they are photos of actual colored objects. A colorized photo is distinctly different.
When I lived in England for a year, I attended the British Region NMRA convention, and happened to win one of the door prizes. It was a very nice water color of a Santa Fe passenger train ascending Cajon Pass, with beautifully rendered steam and smoke. But there was one problem: the artist had portrayed the Santa Fe passenger cars in tuscan--not knowing any better. How different is the colorization of, say, 1900-era freight cars?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Editorial: Man vs. Machine

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

This thought-provoking editorial is posted on a Scale Modeling
website, but its premise certainly applies to the study of steam-era
freight cars:
http://modelingmadness.com/stanseditorial.htm


Ben Hom


Re: Various

 

With Photoshop, when you look at a photo you will never know
if it is the original or not.
If it's been dodged or otherwise darkroom altered, you probably wouldn't
know either if it was done by someone skillful. The same is true of any
photo manipulation program. Life is full of little lies.

Dan Stinson
Helena, Montana


Re: Various

ljack70117@...
 

With Photoshop, when you look at a photo you will never know if it is the original or not.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Jan 16, 2007, at 10:43 AM, James Eckman wrote:

Posted by: "Tony Thompson"

I sure hope this is not a trend. Otherwise we will soon have a
whole bunch of bogus "paint" colors out there, and especially with the
uncritical way many folks seem to use the Internet, accuracy will be
out the window.
Ted Turner, old movies and the crayon brigade rides again ;) A computer
screen at best will give you a difference between colors unless it has
been very carefully calibrated. On the other hand I enjoy looking at
these colorized photos and it's easy enough to turn back to black and
white or in some case the author has provided the link to the original.

OTOH, many of
them seem to value "quaint" and "about to collapse" appearance over all
else, as the NG&SL Gazette has amply documented over the years, and
most standard-gauge fanatics find that their teeth ache when viewing an
entire car fleet so modeled.
I entered two versions of the exact same car that I had scratchbuilt
into the local NMRA meet. One was really ratty looking and heavily
weathered and the other one was very lightly weathered with a fairly new
appearance. The ratty car won first place and garnered about 10x the
votes of the 'new' car.

Narrow gaugers are not the only ones who like grungy cars!

I still want to know which Apple Barrel acrylic is closest to Pennsy red!

Jim Eckman



Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: End ladders for CB&Q XM-33 boxcars

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Mark,

I have sent you the end elevation for this car series.
It is best viewed at 100%.

The 21000-21299 were built with National type B trucks.
The 21300-21399 were built with Allied Full Cushion trucks.

Car series CB&Q 8500-8549 were renumbered from 21300-21349.

If there are any other drawings that would help just ask.

If the end elevation does not come thru due to file size I can
reduce it.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Heiden
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 16 January, 2007 08:58
Subject: [STMFC] End ladders for CB&Q XM-33 boxcars


Hello everyone,

I'm working on a model of a CB&Q XM-33 50ft AAR boxcar, series CBQ
21000-21399, using the Proto 2000 single door boxcar. A prototype
photo of one of these cars can be found at:

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/cbq50ftaarmain.html

I've been unable to find good photos showing the end ladders of these
cars. A broadside shot of CBQ 21000 appeared in the 1943 Car Builder's
Cyclopedia, and seems to suggest six or seven rung ladders, with a drop
grab iron making up the seventh or eighth rung. Does anyone know if
this is the case, or if the ends had eight rung ladders like the sides?

Thanks,
Mark Heiden


Darwing Advisory - Mainline Modeler August 2004 (PRR Class X29)

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

For anyone using the subject drawing as a reference, be advised that
the called out dimension for striker to kingpin distance is
incorrect. The callout is 5' 6"; the actual distance is 5' 0". The
measured dimension off the drawing is correct; the callout is in error.

This is another example why you shouldn't depend entirely on a drawing.


Ben Hom


Re: Wabash Double Door Autocar

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, cobrapsl@... wrote:

List,

I have an Overland Models Wabash autocar I would like to paint. It
is an outside braced car that has been resheathed in steel and has
Youngtown double doors (replacement?). I believe the Wabash series is
145000-145999. Does anyone have a late 40's, early 50's photo they
can share, or point me to a book that has a photo of this car in it.
As always, any and all help is appreicated.
Paul,

These cars, built in 1926, had their wood sides replaced with steel
in 1935. The cars were numbered in the 45400 - 46001 series. The
remaining cars from this group, 45000 - 45399, and 46002 - 46999 kept
the wood sides the rest of their life. The 1955 equipment book show
the cars having either wood or steel doors. 147 of the cars received
D/F utility loaders in 1953. for package loading. 232 cars had racks
installed in 1948 for panel and engine loading. 114 cars received
racks in 1952 for station wagon panel loading. I will send you a few
scans of these cars.

Chet French
Dixon, IL
Possibly the last one to get home from Cocoa Beach


Re: Ancient photos in color

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

Tony Thompson wrote:
I sure hope this is not a trend. Otherwise we will soon have
a whole bunch of bogus "paint" colors out there, and
especially with the uncritical way many folks seem to use the
Internet, accuracy will be out the window. OTOH, the "true believers"
in the silver J&L tank cars can provide their own proof! Wow! What a
lotta fun! And after all, "Model Railroading is Fun." An
authoritative magazine use to tell us so.
I suggested he add the word "colorized" in the image and he's done so, tho
for myself the exact phrasing he used is still a bit problematic.

For myself, I see nothing different between colorizing a photo and
colorizing a plastic or resin model. The issues of accuracy by the artist
and misperceptions by the viewer are common to both "media". Other than
expecting everything to be labeled "Artistic Interpretation of Color" what
can you do other than be doubtful and always ask some questions.

Dave Nelson


Re: Various

James Eckman
 

Posted by: "Tony Thompson"
I sure hope this is not a trend. Otherwise we will soon have a
whole bunch of bogus "paint" colors out there, and especially with the
uncritical way many folks seem to use the Internet, accuracy will be
out the window.
Ted Turner, old movies and the crayon brigade rides again ;) A computer screen at best will give you a difference between colors unless it has been very carefully calibrated. On the other hand I enjoy looking at these colorized photos and it's easy enough to turn back to black and white or in some case the author has provided the link to the original.

OTOH, many of
them seem to value "quaint" and "about to collapse" appearance over all
else, as the NG&SL Gazette has amply documented over the years, and
most standard-gauge fanatics find that their teeth ache when viewing an
entire car fleet so modeled.
I entered two versions of the exact same car that I had scratchbuilt into the local NMRA meet. One was really ratty looking and heavily weathered and the other one was very lightly weathered with a fairly new appearance. The ratty car won first place and garnered about 10x the votes of the 'new' car.

Narrow gaugers are not the only ones who like grungy cars!

I still want to know which Apple Barrel acrylic is closest to Pennsy red!

Jim Eckman

130521 - 130540 of 189789