Date   

Re: Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?

earlyrail
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:27 PM, gary laakso wrote:

I think William Clouster introduced resin in O scale, ages ago, at
least per Model Railroader. Who produced the first resin kit in HO?
The earliest ones I'm aware of were produced by Dennis Storzek, now of
Accurail. Dennis, who is on this list, may know if there were earlier
examples.

Richard Hendrickson
Don't forget Roller Bearing Models.
Some of the first epoxy kits, or at least major parts of the kits.

Howard Garner


Re: Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Aramnd Premo wrote:
"Dennis, I think that Ted has a Frisco in his line."

Hey Armand, who the heck do you think provided the masters for this kit?
http://www.speedwitch.com/Models/k108.htm

Great to see this kit back on the market - it's been sorely missed.


Ben Hom


Re: Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?

armprem
 

Dennis,I think that Ted has a Frisco in his line.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 11:27 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?


> --- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:27 PM, gary laakso wrote:
>>
>> > I think William Clouster introduced resin in O scale, ages ago, at
>> > least per Model Railroader. Who produced the first resin kit in HO?
>>
>> The earliest ones I'm aware of were produced by Dennis Storzek, now of
>> Accurail. Dennis, who is on this list, may know if there were earlier
>> examples.
>>
>> Richard Hendrickson
>
> At the time I started, Al Westerfield was already in production, and
> had produced several kits. Al was using polyester resin; miserable
> brittle stuff that made the molds swell, so if one wasn't careful to
> not re-fill the molds too soon, each successive set of parts would be
> bigger. I was aware of Clouser's O scale work with aluminum filled
> epoxy, and decided that was a better way to go. My problem then became
> mold life, as the epoxy tried to do a good job of bonding itself to
> the silicone RTV rubber, and eventually succeeded. Both Al and I
> independently found the urethane that has become the standard for
> resin kits ever since.
>
> While William J. Clouser had already done epoxy resin kits for O scale
> AAR boxcars, traction equipment, and even a narrow gauge car, I can't
> think of anyone who had an HO resin kit on the market before Al
> Westerfield.
>
> I find it interesting that people keep asking Al when he is going to
> do the Frisco "sawtooth" car. Before I started in the business, I
> corresponded with Al, offering to measure and draw a Soo Line
> "sawtooth" boxcar if he'd do a kit of it. Al's reply was that drawings
> of the Frisco car were already in the Car Builder's Cyc, and he could
> just do that car. That wasn't good enough for me, I wanted a Soo Line
> car, so I decided to go it alone. Now, twenty-five years later,
> apparently the Frisco car still isn't done.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.28/672 - Release Date: 2/6/2007 10:22 AM
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: beautiful old kit

tmolsen@...
 

Garth & Ed,

I have one of the Ulhrich War-Emergency gons also lettered for N&W. Back in 1966 when I was a member of the old Silver Valley Railroad Club in Camden New Jersey, I put it together, but felt it needed a little more weight to track better.

I put several pieces of type slugs that I had gotten when I was still working in printing and put them down the center of the car. Then I loaded the car with coal, after which I put a pair of Central Valley trucks under is and took it to the club.

The Standards Committee had to pass on every piece of equipment before it went onto the club layout. Well, it tracked beautifully, but when they weighed it, I was told that it was a bit heavy. How about 11 ounces! Normally, they would have bounced it, but since it tracked so well and conformed in every other parameter, they grudgingly rubber stamped it okay and it went onto the layout! I still have that car and will eventually change the trucks and put the Kadee scale couplers on it. I have never over-weighted a car since, but it still looks good today, but with that weight, it is still a "Battleship"!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


Re: The DS/SS split - More results

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "laramielarry" <ostresh@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@>
wrote:

On Feb 7, 2007, at 10:48 AM, laramielarry wrote:
No. Earlier ORERs show 1,000 cars in the 108000-108999 series.
Many
RRs, when only a few cars were left in a number series, showed only
the
lowest and highest numbers of the cars remaining, and that's
obviously
what happened in this case.

Richard Hendrickson
Thanks Richard

A follow up question, suggested by your answer: Does the span of the
series constitute a lower bound on the number of cars? For example,
could we have implied that at one time there were at LEAST 527 cars
in the series? (Or perhaps half that number, since it was common to
assign only even numbers to cars.)

Larry Ostresh
Yes. I was going to answer with the full series information, but Dr.
Hendrickson beat me to it, including to comment that this was an even
number only series. Since it was even numbers only, I'm sure it was
108000-109998, 1000 cars.

Keep in mid that wood cars were quite a bit smaller than the the fifty
ton capacity steel cars we are familiar with at the end of the steam
era. A 36' 30 ton wood car could only hold 60% of what those later
cars held, and so it took almost twice as many cars to move the same
traffic.

Wood cars also didn't last all that long, and had a high attrition
rate. An ORER from 1929, when these cars were only twenty years old,
lists 745 cars in series 108000-109994, the two highest number cars
are gone, along with 25% of the series. A Soo Line company roster from
1931 lists 659 cars remaining at that time, so almost one hundred cars
were retired in the intervening two years.

Dennis


Re: Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:27 PM, gary laakso wrote:

I think William Clouster introduced resin in O scale, ages ago, at
least per Model Railroader. Who produced the first resin kit in HO?
The earliest ones I'm aware of were produced by Dennis Storzek, now of
Accurail. Dennis, who is on this list, may know if there were earlier
examples.

Richard Hendrickson
At the time I started, Al Westerfield was already in production, and
had produced several kits. Al was using polyester resin; miserable
brittle stuff that made the molds swell, so if one wasn't careful to
not re-fill the molds too soon, each successive set of parts would be
bigger. I was aware of Clouser's O scale work with aluminum filled
epoxy, and decided that was a better way to go. My problem then became
mold life, as the epoxy tried to do a good job of bonding itself to
the silicone RTV rubber, and eventually succeeded. Both Al and I
independently found the urethane that has become the standard for
resin kits ever since.

While William J. Clouser had already done epoxy resin kits for O scale
AAR boxcars, traction equipment, and even a narrow gauge car, I can't
think of anyone who had an HO resin kit on the market before Al
Westerfield.

I find it interesting that people keep asking Al when he is going to
do the Frisco "sawtooth" car. Before I started in the business, I
corresponded with Al, offering to measure and draw a Soo Line
"sawtooth" boxcar if he'd do a kit of it. Al's reply was that drawings
of the Frisco car were already in the Car Builder's Cyc, and he could
just do that car. That wasn't good enough for me, I wanted a Soo Line
car, so I decided to go it alone. Now, twenty-five years later,
apparently the Frisco car still isn't done.

Dennis


Re: Red Caboose X29 patch panels

Bruce Smith
 

On Wed, February 7, 2007 6:28 pm, jim_mischke wrote:
- What is the height of the PRR patch panels?
As noted by others, the PRR's panels varied in height. Those on the model
represent a continuous 12" panel applied to the entire car side

- Which one of these three bodies has Red Caboose retooled with
patch panels??
PRR plate end.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Suitable kits for SP B-50-38 or B-50-41?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

That's fine, Kurt, but not my point: I was talking about
interchangeability of MODELS.
Sure, that what I figured.

. . . if I want to represent a 50-foot SP car in Beaver Falls, PA, a
de-racked A-50-17 is as good as a B-50-36 is as good as a B-50-41.
No argument, just keep in mind that these three cars are NOT
modeled the same way. If your only intention is to choose ONE of those
classes, and model it, fine.
Yup, that's what I'm doing. I would not use the same kit to make an A-50-17, B-50-36, and B-50-41 any more than I would consider the Proto2000 Greenville GB a suitable kit for every 52-6 GB ever made.

Okay, I understand your criterion--weird as it seems; why
care about that missing inch in height when externals are changing all
over the map [?]
Simply because I had to draw the line somewhere. Like I said, I could've researched each type - for 30-odd roads and private owners - bought more books, posted more messages, scrutinized more photos, and grouped and sorted things by any number of factors, but in the end I doubt I would've come up with a significantly different roster, nor enjoyed the process any more. There's only so much hobby time and budget that researching - vice building and operating - warrants.

Thanks,
KL


Re: Red Caboose X29 patch panels

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Mischke wrote:
- What is the height of the PRR patch panels? B&O's M-26 patch panels were 15" high.
I can't speak for B&O, but PRR panels were certainly not all the same size. There are even photos with different height panels on a single car. So I guess I'd answer Jim's question with: "Varies."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Suitable kits for SP B-50-38 or B-50-41?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
. . . I determined which roads had the most boxcars and proportioned my XM/XML/XME fleet accordingly. (As it turns out I need one SP 40-footer and one SP 50-footer.) I then looked at
the ORER recapitulation tables and saw which inside lengths were most common (50-6 in this case), then found which basic dimensions with that length were most common (50-6 x 9-4 x 10-6), and decided to get a car of that inside size. Sure, it ain't all about the inside, but it's _reasonable_ for my purposes.
That's fine, Kurt, but not my point: I was talking about interchangeability of MODELS.

. . . if I want to represent a 50-foot SP car in Beaver Falls, PA, a de-racked A-50-17 is as good as a B-50-36 is as good as a B-50-41.
No argument, just keep in mind that these three cars are NOT modeled the same way. If your only intention is to choose ONE of those classes, and model it, fine.

The B-50-35, 210556-211305, cars were listed as 50-6 x 9-4 x 10-5 in my book, so they didn't make the cut. I realize that from the outside these might not be distinguishable from others I chose . . .
Okay, I understand your criterion--weird as it seems; why care about that missing inch in height when externals are changing all over the map--and you are of course free to act on that idea if you really want to.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?

Jerry Dziedzic
 

Green resin? Was that an earlier product than the metal-filled 1201
G22 Pennsy gon that I busted half a dozen drill bits on so long ago?

That gon soldiers on faithfully here, though most every time we
couple onto it another chip flies off into the etric. The car
certainly satisfies the old ICC requirements of a rebuild. I doubt
that there's much more left of the original than the rivet holes.

My very best, Al and Patricia. Your kits raised the bar of modeling
standards. More importantly, you've always been very gracious to me,
on the rare occasions that we meet or we correspond. Good health!

Jerry Dziedzic
Pattenburg, NJ

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 7, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Westerfield wrote:

My kits were the first in wide distribution.
Certainly no argument there, Al, and I'm proud to say I was one of
your
earliest customers, back in the fragile green resin era.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Red Caboose X29 patch panels

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Jim: I can answer part of the question, RC retooled the early PRR X29 (good
for B&O M-26b). I am still at work so I don't have a car to measure the
height of the patch panels. They are already out, I have 11 decorated bodies
and 2 undecs I bought off Andy Carlson (No relation). Warning the kits are
expensive, $2 less than the RTR. Red Caboose's way to sell less kits.

I do know from looking at prototype photo's they were not all the same height
on the PRR.

Brian J Carlson

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 00:28:57 -0000, jim_mischke wrote
Questions:

I understand Red Caboose is coming out with PRR X29 bodies with
patch panels.

- What is the height of the PRR patch panels? B&O's M-26 patch
panels were 15" high.

Red caboose produces three bodies, differing by rivet lines and
panel lap arrangemebts: (1) ARA standard (good for B&O M-26a) (2)
early PRR X29 (good for B&O M-26b) and (3) late PRR X29

- Which one of these three bodies has Red Caboose retooled with
patch panels??

Any insights would be appreciated.

Yahoo! Groups Links


--
Open WebMail Project (http://openwebmail.org)


Re: Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 7, 2007, at 3:56 PM, Westerfield wrote:

My kits were the first in wide distribution.
Certainly no argument there, Al, and I'm proud to say I was one of your earliest customers, back in the fragile green resin era.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: The DS/SS split - More results

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Feb 7, 2007, at 10:48 AM, laramielarry wrote:

Thanks Dennis.

Is the size of the series indicative of the number of cars
originally
purchased? For example, were there 527 cars in this series in
1909 (or
whenever they got them from the Wisconsin Central)?

SOO, XM, Box, 108436-108962, 36'0", 6'0", 60000, 2
DS truss rod wood cars built 1908 - 1909
No. Earlier ORERs show 1,000 cars in the 108000-108999 series.
Many
RRs, when only a few cars were left in a number series, showed only
the
lowest and highest numbers of the cars remaining, and that's
obviously
what happened in this case.

Richard Hendrickson
Thanks Richard

A follow up question, suggested by your answer: Does the span of the
series constitute a lower bound on the number of cars? For example,
could we have implied that at one time there were at LEAST 527 cars
in the series? (Or perhaps half that number, since it was common to
assign only even numbers to cars.)

Larry Ostresh


Re: Suitable kits for SP B-50-38 or B-50-41?

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Actually there are a number that would work (A-50-12, -14, -15, -17,
-18;
B-50-22, -30, -36, -38, -41, -51, -53; and these unknown types:
219206-219805, 606000-606003, 620085-620100) as they are all 50-6 x
9-4 x
10-6, the most common size of 50-footers on the SP at the time. The
-38
and -41 were the most common of the common though.
Um, Kurt, there were roof and end differences. It ain't all about
interior dimensions, you know. And to go further, the B-50-41, -51 and
-53 were plug + corrugated door cars. These are hardly interchangeable
with the regular 50-foot double doors. Modeling the -38 vs. the -41
would require a bunch of different modifications.
If you look in the box car book, you can see all these details,
as well as the fact that the car numbers listed can be defined
(B-50-40: 219206-219805; the 620,000-series were various XAP cars
equipped for auto engines, etc.). Not sure why you left out B-50-35,
but certainly the -38 cars were the most common of the ones listed.
----- Original Message -----

Hi Tony:

Yeah, I assumed that these cars were all different in some way, else there wouldn't be much use in distinct designations, eh?

For my layout's non-PRR, non-P&LE cars I realized I'm not going to buy the Morning Sun color guides, class diagram books, or even ID every boxcar type of every road that might be seen on the Marginal Branch - I don't have the money or the interest, to be frank. Instead, I determined which roads had the most boxcars and proportioned my XM/XML/XME fleet accordingly. (As it turns out I need one SP 40-footer and one SP 50-footer.) I then looked at the ORER recapitulation tables and saw which inside lengths were most common (50-6 in this case), then found which basic dimensions with that length were most common (50-6 x 9-4 x 10-6), and decided to get a car of that inside size. Sure, it ain't all about the inside, but it's _reasonable_ for my purposes.

I figured the size of car was as good a basis on which to select "the most likely seen car" as the types or classes or whatever. It had an added advantage in that it gave me a range of possible cars to find models for, rather than being stuck looking for an OOP resin or brass item. So, as far as I'm concerned, if I want to represent a 50-foot SP car in Beaver Falls, PA, a de-racked A-50-17 is as good as a B-50-36 is as good as a B-50-41. Granted, one of the two A-50-12 XMs with combo doors and increased inside dimensions would not really be "representative", but I allow myself some input in the decision so as to eliminate outliers. My method seems to catch the "highly probable" cars of most roads, if not the "most probable".

In my period the four 600000 cars I listed were limited to sulphur loads (and really not under consideration) while the four 620000 XMs were swimming in a sea of XAPs.

The B-50-35, 210556-211305, cars were listed as 50-6 x 9-4 x 10-5 in my book, so they didn't make the cut. I realize that from the outside these might not be distinguishable from others I chose, but my alternative was to learn the history of every SP XM and group things based on factors probably just as subjective. I just wasn't willing to spend the effort to do that, choosing instead to pick a plausible subject and improve the quality of that model, whatever it is.

Thanks,
KL


Red Caboose X29 patch panels

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

Questions:


I understand Red Caboose is coming out with PRR X29 bodies with patch
panels.

- What is the height of the PRR patch panels? B&O's M-26 patch
panels were 15" high.


Red caboose produces three bodies, differing by rivet lines and panel
lap arrangemebts: (1) ARA standard (good for B&O M-26a) (2) early PRR
X29 (good for B&O M-26b) and (3) late PRR X29

- Which one of these three bodies has Red Caboose retooled with
patch panels??



Any insights would be appreciated.


Re: Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Richard - I produced cars about a year before Dennis did (I remember him complaining to me about the accuracy of one of my kits - I later returned the favor about his spurious Accurail road names - all in fun) but Funaro produced his auto car while still in high school, probably before me. And Eric Bronsky made some HO traction about the same time. My kits were the first in wide distribution. - Al

----- Original Message -----
From: Richard Hendrickson
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2007 3:41 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?


On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:27 PM, gary laakso wrote:

> I think William Clouster introduced resin in O scale, ages ago, at
> least per Model Railroader. Who produced the first resin kit in HO?

The earliest ones I'm aware of were produced by Dennis Storzek, now of
Accurail. Dennis, who is on this list, may know if there were earlier
examples.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: HO Brass air hoses.

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Update on bulk purchases of HO brass air hoses from both Bowser or PSC.

------------------------------------
Cal Scale (Bowser) #190-277 4/$2.95 (current standard packaging) @$0.75.

Bulk: 200 count minimum: $50.00, or @$0.25 per air hose. This bid is tentative, but probably doable.

The pricing is predicated on it being a "coat tail" order for other castings, and in this regard, the delivery time would be about anywhere up to several months.

BTW, the casting would be done in China, hence the long timetable.
------------------------------------
Precision Scale (PSC) #3150 6/$2.25 (current standard packaging) @$0.38.

Bulk: 50 shots at @3.00/shot. Total: 600 air hoses@ $0.25. Total cost $150.00.
100 shots at @2.80
200 shots at @2.65

Conclusion: Although individual costs in bulk are comparable, Bowser has a lower minimum (200 for $50) than PSC (600 for $150).

Denny


--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: Athearn metal kits

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

Tony comments that these kits are still "hell to assemble".

Well, he has that exactly right. Other problems, besides attempting to get all of the stamped steel and cast metal parts aligned correctly (bleeding fingers), include rampant zincpest, and most frustrating, no model paints whatsoever on the current market that will satisfactorily match the Stewart-Lundahl 410M finishing products that Athearn (and among others- Ulrich) used at that time.

The two common things about these cars (boxcars) that seem on casual look to readily turn off current modelers are 1) The thick metal running boards seemingly made of 4x6's, and 2) (except on the PRR, SAL, and DT&I cars with rolled roofs) the peculiar very prominent stepped joint between the roof and the sides. For those cars that I like to operate regularly, I simply replace the running boards with Tichy, Details West, or in one case, Kadee products (made relatively easy because in most cases the cast metal running boards are already failing!). This simple improvement alone is often enough for the casual modeler/visitor to completely overlook all the other dated features about these oft-very-handsome and substantial cars.

I know at least one of the Athearn steel cars that Ben Hom sneaks once in awhile into his prototype meet displays, and to my knowledge very few people pick up what it is. I did once, because by serendipity I also had the identical car- which currently also runs incognito amongst a string of far newer and more sophisticated models.

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: Who Produced the First Resin Kit in HO?

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

The earliest resin kits I am aware of were structure kits by Lytler & Lytler,
back in the '70s. They were several story commercial buildings of an ornate
design. Also made of a tough resin. I also believe some of the old Red
Ball/Wabash valley car kits were done in resin, but before Dennis? There were
also some early clear resin Autos and trucks, also from a tough resin.

CJ Riley


--- Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...> wrote:

On Feb 7, 2007, at 12:27 PM, gary laakso wrote:

I think William Clouster introduced resin in O scale, ages ago, at
least per Model Railroader. Who produced the first resin kit in HO?
The earliest ones I'm aware of were produced by Dennis Storzek, now of
Accurail. Dennis, who is on this list, may know if there were earlier
examples.

Richard Hendrickson




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