Wow, thanks for that link! It's a bit after my modelling era (1950), but
it's P&N so it's interesting. Do you have any information about that photo
- where it was taken, and when? Judging from the "NEW 9-66" stencil on it,
I'd guess it was sometime between 66 and 68. Was the picture from
somewhere on the CaSo line?

Frank Valoczy
New Westminster, BC

Last I knew, the entire state of Wisconsin was east of the Mississippi
River. The river actually forms the border between Wisconson on the
east and Iowa and Minnesota on the west. So it would appear neither car
is inviolation. Even if they contained Southern Illinois coal, they
still did not get west of the Mississippi.

Doug Harding

On Feb 11, 2007, at 8:25 AM, Mike Brock wrote:

Guys,
Note that Richard said...

"If you're interested
in seeing an inventory of what I'm offering, e-mail me OFF LIST,
please, and I'll send it by return e-mail."

OFF LIST means not on the STMFC. The 1200+ members don't need to know about
your transactions. Before this develops into another 10 or so
messages...Thanks.

To make matters worse, apparently someone on the list asked for my inventory via the list last night, not in an off-list message, and when I responded to them I inadvertently posted my inventory to the entire list. My apologies for inflicting it on y'all and wasting a bunch of bandwidth. I'll try to be more careful so it doesn't happen again.

Richard Hendrickson

I've managed to piece together some information about P&N freight cars.

Dump cars:

In the 1931 Car Builders' Cyc there is on page 437 a photo of a Koppel 20
cubic yard dump car, number 8550. Probably for MoW, and lasted into at
least the 1950s - in the Fetters book there's a picture in which one can
be seen (p144), with no wires over the tracks, marking it as being after
1954.

Is there further information out there besides the 31 Cyc about the
"Koppel 20 cu. yd. Rolling Trunion Type RT-1 Dump Car"? On the same page
of that Cyc is a picture of a Reading car (#91455), identified in the
caption as being of the same type, but 30 cu. yd. There are also other
notable differences between the two, especially the reservoir(s).

Boxcars (1100 series):

The boxcar type with the most information out there is P&N series
1100-1124. 1950 and 1953 ORER lists them as 'steel frame', but this is
perhaps misleading as will become evident further along...

I have information for a few of these cars:

1101: Broadside photo on p165 of the Fetters book shows wood-sided SS car,
U-section Bettendorf or Andrews trucks, door similar to 1102 with small
difference (one pair of ribs has a larger space between them on 1101);
lettering as narrow Roman "Piedmont & Northern" on three lines above the
road number to the left of the door, and the triple-lightning bolt logo in
a circle (one of several versions of this logo I've seen) to the right.

1102: Hutchins ends, double sheathed wood sides after 1954 (no wires in
the photo, which I found online without credit or info). Lettering:
"Piedmont and Northern" inscription on three lines in an art deco-ish
Gothic typeface over the large road number (all to the left of the door),
to the right is a "Service with Courtesy" herald (unlike all the others
I've seen - probably a repainting, as at some point in the late 50s or 60s
they abandoned the triple lightning-bolt logo).

1108: I found a reference to this having Vulcan ends, but have yet to see
the photograph (on someone's list of photos).

1112: Photo in the 1954 P&N in-house publication "Piedmont Prodigy".
Hutchins ends, 6-5-6 doors (different than 1102!), trucks are difficult to
make out but look to be same as 1101. Lettering is "Piedmont & Northern"
on a single arched line centred over "P&N" above the roadnumber to the
left of the door, with the logo the same as on #1101 on the right. But,
this photo confuses the issue a bit as it looks to be steel sided - on all
the other photos I've seen, it's clearly wood sided. It may be just that
the image is too poor to make the lines out, but I doubt that - the
lettering seems undisturbed by grooves, and even some of the small data
can be made out.

1118: Saw mention of a photo of this car, with Hutchins ends. Atlas did a
model in O scale of a car lettered in the "Service with Courtesy" herald.
The ends on the model are incorrect, as they are not Hutchins ends, and I
haven't yet seen the photo of the prototype to say whether the lettering
is correct or not.

Boxcars (12000 or 17000 series)

On page 53 of the Fetters book there is a picture taken sometime in the
1920s of an electric loco in front of a string of P&N boxcars of what look
to be 12000 or 17000 series - single sheathed cars, wooden; the P&N did
have cars in interchange through the 20s and 30s, but whether this type
was or not, I don't know. Silver Streak or Ye Olde Huff and Puff did a kit
of a P&N wooden boxcar in HO scale at some point, numbered 12073, but from
the picture I have of this kit, it seems to be a model of a double
sheathed or an inside-braced car, which the prototype photo disproves (the
photo of the kit shows only a side wall). The other possibility is that
the prototype photo has cars marked in the 17000s, which would provide the
prototype for the early 1980s special run by MicroTrains of outside-braced
boxcars in N scale. This photo is thus far the only one I've found of
either a 12000 or 17000 series of boxcars. (I have photos of all of these
mentioned models).

Boxcars (24000 series):
This is the series that was sold in 1939 to Akron, Canton & Youngstown.
But, from what I've found, 150 were sold to the AC&Y (becoming the 2100
series), but according to the 1930 ORER, the P&N had 165 of them. I have
no idea whether the remaining 15 cars remained on the P&N, or if they were
disposed of some other way, or if the ORER is incorrect (as it sometimes
is). On this note: there seems to be a lot more information about the AC&Y
2100 series out there than any P&N stuff - does anyone know of drawings
and photos of these cars?

Lastly: Atlas made an O scale model of a PS-1 in blue colour, marked as
Piedmont & Northern no. 501. Fantasy? I've seen absolutely nothing to
suggest that the P&N received any new boxcars after dieselization...

If anyone has any further information about any of these cars, it'd be
enormously appreciated.

Frank Valoczy

I will look for the MP and T&P Cars tonight.



Respectfully submitted

Charles D. Shope, AIA

President

Architecture+

300 Washington, Suite 400

Monroe, Louisiana 71201

318-387-2800 Phone

318-325-9405 Fax

cshope@... <mailto:cshope@...>



_____

From: laramielarry [mailto:ostresh@...]
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2007 3:16 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: The DS/SS split - More Unknowns



Hi Folks

Since I posted a new list of Unknowns yesterday, many have been
solved or I have offers to solve them. These are the ones that remain
Unknown:

GA, XM, Box, 17000-17099, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 97
WofA, XM, Box, 17000-17147, 40'6", 6'0", 100000, 120
A&WP, XM, Box, 37000-37133, 40'6", 6'0", 100000, 102
C&EI, XAR, Auto, 3100-3139, 40'6", 12'0", 80000, 38
CMO, XM, Box, 19400-19998, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 130
DM&IR, XM, Box, 3100-3149, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 43
DT&I, XAP, Box, 27000-27999, 40'6", 7'0", 80000, 30
DT&I, XAP, Auto, 47009-47948, 40'6", 7'0", 80000, 51
DT&I, XAP, Auto, 57007-57976, 40'6", 7'0", 80000, 111
GM&O, XM, Box, 30000-30024, 40'6", 12'7", 100000, 25
IN, XM, Box, 1400-1499, 40'0", 10'0", 80000, 43
IN, XM, Box, 1500-1599, 40'0", 6'0", 80000, 46
L&N, XMR, Auto, 46000-46199, 40'6", 12'0", 100000, 34
L&N, XMR, Auto, 46300-46399, 40'6", 12'0", 100000, 99
MILW, XAP, Auto, 510100-510289, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 150
MILW, XAP, Auto, 272500-272524, 50'6", 6'0", 100000, 25
NLC, XM, Box, 115-141, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 27
MP, XM, Box, 44000-44410, 40'4", 6'0", 80000, 408
MP, XM, Box, 45251-45494, 40'3", 6'0", 80000, 239
MP, XAR, Auto, 75280-75479, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 200
MP, XM, Box, 75480-75999, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 124
MP, XAR, Auto, 75480-75999, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 338
MP, XAR, Auto, 76150-76999, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 308
MP, XM, Box, 79000-79199, 40'6", 12'0", 80000, 192
MP, XM, Box, 84000-84099, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 87
NOT&M, XM, Box, 20001-20050, 40'0", 6'0", 80000, 43
NJI&I, XM, Box, 2000-2149, 40'6", 10'0", 80000, 136
NJI&I, XM, Box, 3000-3199, 40'6", 10'0", 80000, 29
NJI&I, XM, Box, 78000-78199, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 165
SLSF, XM, Box, 151000-151099, 40'6", 12'6", 100000, 97
SLSF, XME, Box, 151100-151199, 40'6", 12'6", 100000, 98
SLSF, XM, Box, 151200-151284, 40'6", 12'6", 100000, 84
SLSF, XM, Box, 151285-151499, 40'6", 10'0", 100000, 112
SLSF, XM, Box, 151285-151499, 40'6", 13'0", 100000, 48
SLSF, XMR, Auto, 151285-151499, 40'6", 13'0", 100000, 49
SLSF, XMR, Auto, 152000-152099, 40'6", 12'6", 80000, 97
SLSF, XME, Box, 152100-152228, 40'6", 12'6", 80000, 74
SLSF, XMR, Auto, 152100-152228, 40'6", 12'6", 80000, 45
SOUTHERN, XM, Box, 409000-409999, 36'0", 6'0", 80000, 153
T&P, XM, Box, 30000-30316, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 312
T&P, XAR, Auto, 61000-61099, 40'6", 12'0", 80000, 71
T&P, XAR, Auto, 72000-72024, 50'6", 15'0", 100000, 25
UP, XM, Box, 75000-75397, 40'5", 6'1", 100000, 42

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Dear Tom
I'm afraid not within a country mile; I'm not sure whether to suggest you encourage him to join STMFC to sample what serious concern for prototype fidelity looks like or discourage him from joining, lest it drive him out of model railroading entirely.
I agree about the several H&BTM modern small 2-8-0's (only four, or were there more?): lovely lines.
I wonder how close a Ma&Pa modern (i.e., #41-43) would be without the Elesco FW heater?
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.

I mentioned that to my buddy, but he just wanted a stand-in for one of
the DL&W 0-8-0's: said that it was close! My reply was "O-K-A-Y!"
Surprising since this person is a stickler for doing it right!

Now if I could only find an engine that could be re-worked to be a
Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain 2-8-0 #37 which was a standard off-the-
shelf Baldwin.

Tom Olsen

Um, Tom, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but I am pretty sure the

DL&W

didn't have any USRA 0-8-0's; their only 0-8-0's, as I recall, were the
homebuilts from 4-6-2's to keep the shop crews employed during the
Depressions. Now the ERIE had USRA-type 0-8-0's...
Jace Kahn, General Manager

_________________________________________________________________
Turn searches into helpful donations. Make your search count. http://click4thecause.live.com/search/charity/default.aspx?source=hmemtagline_donation&FORM=WLMTAG

I am intersted in purchasing some of the new releases of the Proto
2000 50' single door boxcars decorated for Southern Pacific that just
came out. Anyone know what the builddate and re-weigh date is on the
car? Not living close to a hobby shop I have to mail order. Thanks.

Jason Sanford

The patch panels on the RC kits I do not believe are correctly tooled as a typical representation of how this repair was carried out. They are rendered as if a continuous plate was welded all the way across the bottom of the car. From a technical point of view, this has never made much sense to me as the "patch" weld where you transitioned over the lap seams would be a real problem to execute. My clear answer of how "patch" panels were applied came at Cocco Beach this year. Ted Culotta in his presentation had a photo of an X 29 in just the right sunlight to high-light the "patch" panels. Although the "patch" panel on this car was the same height all the way across the bottom, the "patches" were clearly distinct sheets, each the width of the panel they were "patching", and not one continuous sheet as represented on the RC model. Clearly the bottom two or three rivets at each seam had been removed, the old panel cut away, a new "patch" plate welded to the bottom of the panel and the panel seam re-riveted. I spoke with Richard Hendrickson about the photo while it was being presented and he confirmed, that to his knowledge, this was how the patches were applied. It also clearly illustrates why there was more than one height. The worker doing the "patching" simply removed what needed to be removed from each panel solely on a need to replace basis. Obviously, making one torch cut along a single line and having all the the replacement "patch" panels the same size was easier and quicker. I await my Pennsy peers thoughts on the matter.........

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA

Shawn Beckert wrote

Well, I tried searching the archives to get an idea of which type
of Dalman was more common, plain bolster or lateral motion. I
found little information on this. So, if I have a lot of steam-era kits
in the closet (and I do) what percentage of each design should I
have on hand: 50/50, 25/75? Some other proportion?

Available from Tahoe Model Works is a two page list of cars equipped with Dalman 2 Level trucks, divided between plain and lateral motion, and including HO resin and plastic freight cars matching the prototypes. This was compiled from what books and magazines I have, so is not complete, but should be useful.

To acquire this list, either mail a #10 SASE to the address below including a note for the Dalman list (and this will get you on the mailing list for future product announcements) or e-mail me at b.leppert@..., although I think your computer will need Microsoft Word to receive it.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
5801 Sheep Drive # 7
Carson City, NV 89701

Denny I think this is the same car that Intermountain is doing.
There was a model on display at the IRC booth at Springfield. My
question about the Ribside car: did they fix the roof?

Tim O'Connor


--- Denny Anspach wrote:

Guys,
Note that Richard said...

"If you're interested
in seeing an inventory of what I'm offering, e-mail me OFF LIST,
please, and I'll send it by return e-mail."

OFF LIST means not on the STMFC. The 1200+ members don't need to know about your transactions. Before this develops into another 10 or so messages...Thanks.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

For some reason, when the message goes out from the STFMC list, the URL is listed twice in a row, and won't work. The copy I sent directly to to myself was correct. I'll try one more time, but if it doesn't work again, try highlighting just the first half of the URL (before it repeats itself).

http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rrclubum/gopherrail.htm<http://www.tc.umn.edu/~rrclubum/gopherrail.htm>

Richard Remiarz
Vadnais Heights, MN

Thanks Jim, that's interesting.

KL

Richard Hendrickson wrote:

Sunshine
25.19 Pacific Fruit Express R-30/40-9 class refrigerator car.
25.62 Pacific Fruit Express R-30/40-16 class refrigerator car.
38.2 Southern Pacific B-50-15 class composite single sheathed box car, steel sheathing, radial roof.
38.9 Texas & New Orleans (Southern Pacific) B-50-15 class composite single sheathed box car, wood sheathing, Hutchins roof, Allen door.

Westerfield
5401 Southern Pacific (& T&N#O) S-40-8/9/10 class stock car, original.
Structure Kits
Campbell #781-160 wood cattle loading pens. $3.00
Campbell #360-375 wood pump House. $3.00

Richard,

I am interested in the above kits. Please let me know what is available and the total cost. I live in CT.

Thanks and regards, Spen Kellogg

Unfortunately it still doesn't link.

Sincerely, Rich Yoder
7 Edgedale Court
Wyomissing PA 19610-1913
610-678-2834 after 6:00PM est until 10:00PM
www.richyodermodels.com

Hi Richard,

I will take the following if not already sold.

Thanks,

Gary Ray



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 9:01 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Kits/Models For Sale



LIST OF HO SCALE MODELS FOR SALE

Richard Hendrickson
444 Monte Vista Drive
Ashland, OR 97520
(541) 482-6046
rhendrickson@ <mailto:rhendrickson%40opendoor.com> opendoor.com

10% discount on five models or more.

Note: prices do not include packing and shipping. To US addresses add
$4.00 shipping for one to five models, $50¢ more for each additional
model up to 9, $7.00 shipping for ten or more models.




Life-Like Proto 2000 - RTR $6.00 ea., Kits $5.00 ea.

30676 Kit 8,000 gal. AC&F Type 21 tank car, General American, GATX
15402, black.

30905 RTR 40' Mather composite box car, Muncie & Western "Ball Line,"
MWR 1225, yellow.
30906 RTR 40' Mather composite box car, Muncie & Western "Ball Line,"
MWR 1264, yellow.
30907 RTR 40' Mather composite box car, Ford Dodge, Des Moines &
Southern, FDDM&S 14003, mineral red.
30908 RTR 40' Mather composite box car, Ford Dodge, Des Moines &
Southern, FDDM&S 14008, mineral red.
30910 RTR 40' Mather composite box car, Tennessee Central, TC 7835,
mineral red.





Freight Car Models - Resin Kits - $10.00 each

Sunshine
7.1 Mather 40' composite box car, Chicago & Illinois Midland.
7.2 Mather 40' composite box car, Illinois Northern.
7.4 Mather 40' composite box car, Chicago & Eastern Illinois.
25.19 Pacific Fruit Express R-30/40-9 class refrigerator car.
25.62 Pacific Fruit Express R-30/40-16 class refrigerator car.


Westerfield
1104 Union Pacific A-50-4 class single sheathed steel auto car, no
decals.
1251 Pennsylvania G22 class gondola, as built.

3303 Chesapeake & Ohio USRA single-sheathed composite box car
3601 Santa Fe Bx-3 class sectional-sheathed composite box car, original.

5401 Southern Pacific (& T&N#O) S-40-8/9/10 class stock car, original.


Des Plaines
Des Plaines Car & Foundry (ex-Dennis Storzek) Canadian National 40'
single sheathed box car.

Structure Kits
Campbell #781-160 wood cattle loading pens. $3.00
Campbell #360-375 wood pump House. $3.00
Campbell #301-175 wood pile trestle, ballasted deck. $3.00
Williams Bros. #501 bulk oil storage tank kit, three tanks with bases
plus walkway, ladder, loading platform and accessories. $4.00
SS Ltd./Walthers K-101 (second edition) gas station kit, wood/sheet
metal/die cast metal. $5.00
IHC #3503 molded styrene factory with loading silos. $4.00
Model Power #455 molded styrene Burlington Mills factory. $4.00







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Folks

Since I posted a new list of Unknowns yesterday, many have been
solved or I have offers to solve them. These are the ones that remain
Unknown:

GA, XM, Box, 17000-17099, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 97
WofA, XM, Box, 17000-17147, 40'6", 6'0", 100000, 120
A&WP, XM, Box, 37000-37133, 40'6", 6'0", 100000, 102
C&EI, XAR, Auto, 3100-3139, 40'6", 12'0", 80000, 38
CMO, XM, Box, 19400-19998, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 130
DM&IR, XM, Box, 3100-3149, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 43
DT&I, XAP, Box, 27000-27999, 40'6", 7'0", 80000, 30
DT&I, XAP, Auto, 47009-47948, 40'6", 7'0", 80000, 51
DT&I, XAP, Auto, 57007-57976, 40'6", 7'0", 80000, 111
GM&O, XM, Box, 30000-30024, 40'6", 12'7", 100000, 25
IN, XM, Box, 1400-1499, 40'0", 10'0", 80000, 43
IN, XM, Box, 1500-1599, 40'0", 6'0", 80000, 46
L&N, XMR, Auto, 46000-46199, 40'6", 12'0", 100000, 34
L&N, XMR, Auto, 46300-46399, 40'6", 12'0", 100000, 99
MILW, XAP, Auto, 510100-510289, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 150
MILW, XAP, Auto, 272500-272524, 50'6", 6'0", 100000, 25
NLC, XM, Box, 115-141, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 27
MP, XM, Box, 44000-44410, 40'4", 6'0", 80000, 408
MP, XM, Box, 45251-45494, 40'3", 6'0", 80000, 239
MP, XAR, Auto, 75280-75479, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 200
MP, XM, Box, 75480-75999, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 124
MP, XAR, Auto, 75480-75999, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 338
MP, XAR, Auto, 76150-76999, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 308
MP, XM, Box, 79000-79199, 40'6", 12'0", 80000, 192
MP, XM, Box, 84000-84099, 40'6", 12'1", 80000, 87
NOT&M, XM, Box, 20001-20050, 40'0", 6'0", 80000, 43
NJI&I, XM, Box, 2000-2149, 40'6", 10'0", 80000, 136
NJI&I, XM, Box, 3000-3199, 40'6", 10'0", 80000, 29
NJI&I, XM, Box, 78000-78199, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 165
SLSF, XM, Box, 151000-151099, 40'6", 12'6", 100000, 97
SLSF, XME, Box, 151100-151199, 40'6", 12'6", 100000, 98
SLSF, XM, Box, 151200-151284, 40'6", 12'6", 100000, 84
SLSF, XM, Box, 151285-151499, 40'6", 10'0", 100000, 112
SLSF, XM, Box, 151285-151499, 40'6", 13'0", 100000, 48
SLSF, XMR, Auto, 151285-151499, 40'6", 13'0", 100000, 49
SLSF, XMR, Auto, 152000-152099, 40'6", 12'6", 80000, 97
SLSF, XME, Box, 152100-152228, 40'6", 12'6", 80000, 74
SLSF, XMR, Auto, 152100-152228, 40'6", 12'6", 80000, 45
SOUTHERN, XM, Box, 409000-409999, 36'0", 6'0", 80000, 153
T&P, XM, Box, 30000-30316, 40'6", 6'0", 80000, 312
T&P, XAR, Auto, 61000-61099, 40'6", 12'0", 80000, 71
T&P, XAR, Auto, 72000-72024, 50'6", 15'0", 100000, 25
UP, XM, Box, 75000-75397, 40'5", 6'1", 100000, 42

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Thanks Jace,

I mentioned that to my buddy, but he just wanted a stand-in for one of the DL&W 0-8-0's: said that it was close! My reply was "O-K-A-Y!" Surprising since this person is a stickler for doing it right!

Now if I could only find an engine that could be re-worked to be a Huntingdon & Broad Top Mountain 2-8-0 #37 which was a standard off-the- shelf Baldwin.

Regards,

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmolsen@...


Justin Kahn wrote:

Hi,
I see alot of articles on trucks, doors, ends, brake rigging but I
would like to see an article on the different roofs that were on
boxcars of our time frame. Does such an article exist that I have
missed some where? Dave Powell Iowa