Date   

Re: Blue Streak Fast Freight Herald

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Steve Tucker wrote:
If a boxcar is lettered with either Southern Pacific or St. Louis Southwestern in small RR roman to the left of the door(s) and has the Blue Streak Fast Freight Lightening Bolt herald to the right of the door(s), what would be the date range for this paint scheme?
IF it is lettered "SP" and has the Blue Streak emblem, it's an oddball, and certainly couldn't have existed prior to, say, 1960.

Also, I've seen decorated kits where the lightening bolts are filled in with blue, and some not (like a Proto 2000 kit I looking at). Are either or both accurate - depending on the era?
Yes.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Blue Streak Fast Freight Herald

Stephen A. Tucker <stephentucker@...>
 

I need some help determining the date range of use for the SP/SSW Blue
Streak Fast Freight herald. I want rolling stock on my model RR to
have accurate paint schemes for the Post WWII era, up to 1949.

If a boxcar is lettered with either Southern Pacific or
St. Louis Southwestern in small RR roman to the left of the door(s)
and has the Blue Streak Fast Freight Lightening Bolt herald to the
right of the door(s), what would be the date range for this paint
scheme?

Also, I've seen decorated kits where the lightening bolts are filled
in with blue, and some not (like a Proto 2000 kit I looking at). Are
either or both accurate - depending on the era?

Thanks in advance.

Steve Tucker, Prescott Valley, AZ


Re: Vulcan and other ends, etc.

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., destron@ wrote:


elusive and short lived Vulcan end.
<snip>
potential patent. It didn't stay on the market long, but some
were
applied to cars built for a few roads.
Do you know who else used these, and for how long? Any ideas as
to
whether
any were found on cars in interchange in 1952?
Yep, at least a few. W&LE 27000-27999 were really bizarre: SS cars
with staggered 7' wood doors and Vulcan ends! But 986 cars are
listed
in the 1/43 ORER, and 7 are still in the W&LE listing for 1/53.
W&LE
was merged into the NKP a few years earlier, but I don't see a NKP
series whose dimensions match these, so I suspect NKP scrapped
them.
They were old -- dated from the early '20s.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.
Al -

I am at the office and my train stuff (other than what little is in
my head) is at home, so this is totally from memory.

Didn't the WLE have a series of double hoppers with "funky" panel
sides - large, broad panels, instead of the usual more narrow ones -
that were rebuilt in the early 1940's (???) from composite hoppers?
From the WLE/NKP diagrams, this entire series of panel-side hoppers
had hopper floors that were formerly corrugated car ends! The actual
wording was "from SH car ends" - took a while for me to figure out
that "SH" meant "second hand"!

I cannot see how that was done, UNLESS the railroad used the Vulcan
vertical corrugated ends from some of the above boxcars for hopper
floors! I also recall that WLE/NKP diagrams said that some of the
composite cars also had these corrugated floors, but not all of
them. (I may be wrong about the composite cars - might be plain side
rebuilt double hoppers instead of composite cars. I am sure about
the panel-side cars, though.)

Does anyone have any concrete information on whether some of the
Vulcan ends off boxcars were used for this purpose?

Anyone care to speculate?

Only pictures (including the one in the Kline/Culotta book) I have
seen are too dark to see the slope sheets. Anyone have a better
photo showing the slope sheet or interior of one of these panel-side
cars?

That would make some neat model, albeit an UGLY one! Those panel
side WLE hoppers are awful looking!

Thank you!

A.T. Kott


Re: Vulcan and other ends, etc.

al_brown03
 

--- In STMFC@..., destron@... wrote:


elusive and short lived Vulcan end.
<snip>
potential patent. It didn't stay on the market long, but some were
applied to cars built for a few roads.
Do you know who else used these, and for how long? Any ideas as to
whether
any were found on cars in interchange in 1952?
Yep, at least a few. W&LE 27000-27999 were really bizarre: SS cars
with staggered 7' wood doors and Vulcan ends! But 986 cars are listed
in the 1/43 ORER, and 7 are still in the W&LE listing for 1/53. W&LE
was merged into the NKP a few years earlier, but I don't see a NKP
series whose dimensions match these, so I suspect NKP scrapped them.
They were old -- dated from the early '20s.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


Re: Mather Box Cars

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Dennis,

Based on actual experience the re-weigh dates and journal re-pack dates
were not closely monitored in interchange inspections, at least on the
CB&Q. When roller bearings arrived in quantities they started out with
fairly short re-lube periods. Carmen were instructed to monitor these
and any cars over date were bad ordered. In general I would say that
the Carmen inspected just what they were told to inspect. There was not
much point in bad ordering cars for re-weigh dates at yards that either
did not have a scale or did not use the one they had.

They even tried another visual item to call attention to these lube
dates. It was a small stenciled box with a circle of paint inside it.
At the start the colors they decided to use were white and yellow. On
a coal hopper it was rather difficult to tell one from the other.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Dennis Storzek
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, 19 February, 2007 14:23
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Mather Box Cars


In many cases, things that disappear under weathering at the distance
we view our models from (rarely closer than a scale 80 feet) would
still be discernable to a man standing a foot or two away from it,
like the car inspector would be. I'd say that the majority of soon to
expire re-weigh dates were caught by the Carmen inspecting inbound
interchange, as they were also looking for out-of-date brakes and
journal re-packs. When any of the three dates were found to be
expired, the car made a detour to the RIP track to have the situation
corrected. This would occur on whatever road the car happened to be
on, whether empty or loaded, although the car had to be empty to
perform the re-weigh. The road performing the service billed the
owning road a standard fee.

So, the dates could get pretty dirty. This is certainly true of the
air brake date, which rarely shows up in photos. By the time the date
on the side of the car was so grimy as to be illegible, what color
patch it had been applied to was well hidden, also. At that point,
someone with a need to know the date would wipe it off so he could
read it. Since someone was looking for this date very time a car
arrived at a major yard, they wouldn't stay that dirty for long, so I
wouldn't think that a very high proportion of cars would have their
dates completely covered.

Dennis






Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Vulcan and other ends, etc.

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 19, 2007, at 9:18 AM, Dennis Storzek wrote:

The plot thickens. I went back to the illustration in the 1922 Cyc.
and find the "Vulcan end" with the vertical ribs is on a W&LE car,
27024. Scrolling down the page, there is another illustration labeled
"Vulcan ends", that has horizontal ribs, similar to the ends used on
USRA car, except the ribs protrude into the car rather than outward.
Both were sold by the Chicago-Cleveland Car Roofing Co. The vertical
rib Vulcan end on the W&LE car has two panels, each with six inward
facing ribs.

I thought that the Pere Marquette RR had boxcars with vertical rib
ends, as there used to be one in a junk yard on the south side of
Chicago, but I wanted to confirm I had the railroad correct, so I
consulted "Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars" by Million and Paten.
PM had several series of cars with vertical ribs, but the equipment
diagrams reproduced in the book state these are Murphy ends, same rand
as the common horizontal corrugated end. These ends on the PM cars are
two panels with eight ribs each, and the ribs protrude outward from
the car. At the time the Murphy name was being used by the Standard
Railway Equipment Co., and it appears that both companies had products
that competed directly with each other, and to a lesser extent with
the Hutchins offerings.
All of which illustrates a fact which freight car historians ignore at their peril; many manufacturers of car components and appliances had proprietary trade names which they applied to just about everything they made. Some of these were arbitrary, such as Chicago-Cleveland's Vulcan ends and Viking roofs (both names having been applied to several different designs). In other cases, the names were those of the company's founder and/or chief engineer; examples are Standard Railway Equipment Co.'s Murphy roofs and ends (many different types of each) and Standard Car Truck Co.'s Barber trucks and lateral motion devices (again, several different types of each). To say that a car had a Murphy roof doesn't mean much; there was a great deal of difference between, say, a Murphy XLA flexible metal outside roof and a Murphy rectangular panel steel roof.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Mather Box Cars

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "bill_d_goat" <billdgoat@...> wrote:


I have seen (and sometimes done when in a hurry to get a car on the
layout) the reweigh dates just covered over with weathering when the
car was otherwise properly painted for the modeled period. Now I am
wondering if this date would have been an area where weathering would
have been cleaned off (also a good modeling technique for ladders,
grabs, etc.)each time the car was loaded.
Just how incorrect is it to run a car with a weathered over reweigh
date?
Bill Williams
In many cases, things that disappear under weathering at the distance
we view our models from (rarely closer than a scale 80 feet) would
still be discernable to a man standing a foot or two away from it,
like the car inspector would be. I'd say that the majority of soon to
expire re-weigh dates were caught by the Carmen inspecting inbound
interchange, as they were also looking for out-of-date brakes and
journal re-packs. When any of the three dates were found to be
expired, the car made a detour to the RIP track to have the situation
corrected. This would occur on whatever road the car happened to be
on, whether empty or loaded, although the car had to be empty to
perform the re-weigh. The road performing the service billed the
owning road a standard fee.

So, the dates could get pretty dirty. This is certainly true of the
air brake date, which rarely shows up in photos. By the time the date
on the side of the car was so grimy as to be illegible, what color
patch it had been applied to was well hidden, also. At that point,
someone with a need to know the date would wipe it off so he could
read it. Since someone was looking for this date very time a car
arrived at a major yard, they wouldn't stay that dirty for long, so I
wouldn't think that a very high proportion of cars would have their
dates completely covered.

Dennis


Re: Vulcan and other ends, etc.

Scott Pitzer
 

--- In STMFC@..., destron@... wrote:
I'd be curious about the Van Dorn and the Deco. Who had
cars with these on them, and were they still interchanged in '52?
Regards,
Frank
The Deco end was used only on C&O 5400-5499 (part of a larger series
which all had Viking roofs, but the remainder had 4/5 Dreadnaught ends.)
http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/co5469main.html
They were going strong in 1952, some getting the C&O for Progress
monogram if repainted after 1948.
In the 1960s, some of these were among the many "aging C&O cars" which
ended up on the B&O.
Scott Pitzer


Reweigh dates

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Just how incorrect is it to run a car with a weathered over reweigh
date?
Bill Williams
As incorrect as your conscience says it is . . .

SGL


Re: Mather Box Cars

bill_d_goat
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@..., "Paul & Bernice Hillman"
<chris_hillman@> wrote:

On Feb 18, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Paul & Bernice Hillman wrote:
****************************************************************
Of course it's true that the car's build/rebuild date is highly
relevant to the period one's modelling and has to be considered
when
purchasing, painting & building a model car.
--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@>
wrote:


... Standard practice was to paint over the old data
and stencil the new reweigh station symbol and date over it (as
well
as new light weight and load limit, if those had changed) –
unless,
of course, the entire car was in need of repainting.

Richard Hendrickson
Which makes re-weight dates a non-issue when buying model
freightcars.
Since many, if not most, of the cars in service were running with
the
station symbol and date applied over a patch of fresh and different
looking paint, simply paint over the existing date, or cover it
with a
small rectangle cut from pre-painted decal sheet, and add the new
info
with decals. The same procedure can be used with the journal repack
information usually stenciled over the right truck, which also was
changed periodically. Air brake equipment was also serviced
periodically and the date stenciled on the car, but as it was
stenciled on the reservoir, road grime on freightcars quickly hid
it.

These periodic inspection dates are still applied to freightcars
today, but since the introduction of the black "consolidated
stencil"
in the sixties, all the dates are stick-on numbers, and we no longer
see the painted patches behind the stenciled information.

Dennis
I have seen (and sometimes done when in a hurry to get a car on the
layout) the reweigh dates just covered over with weathering when the
car was otherwise properly painted for the modeled period. Now I am
wondering if this date would have been an area where weathering would
have been cleaned off (also a good modeling technique for ladders,
grabs, etc.)each time the car was loaded.
Just how incorrect is it to run a car with a weathered over reweigh
date?
Bill Williams


Re: Mather Box Cars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bill Williams wrote:
I have seen (and sometimes done when in a hurry to get a car on the layout) the reweigh dates just covered over with weathering when the car was otherwise properly painted for the modeled period. Now I am wondering if this date would have been an area where weathering would have been cleaned off (also a good modeling technique for ladders, grabs, etc.)each time the car was loaded. Just how incorrect is it to run a car with a weathered over reweigh date?
If it's a "NEW" date, it can be weathered like the rest of the car. Otherwise, it would obviously be usual for it to be less weathered than the rest. But it's easy to fix: paint a fresh patch and add a "recent" date. Dry transfers are one easy way to do it. One of the easiest lettering corrections there is, and a nice detail in appearance.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Vulcan ends - NOT!

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
"I thought Vulcan ends had bullseye shaped indentations on box cars
and flattened bullseyes on gons.

The box car end I've described is shown in Wayner's PRR freight car
book.

The gon end was shown years ago in MM."

Wrong again, Ed. The ends you described are Van Dorn ends:
http://www.westerfield.biz/1358.htm


Ben Hom


Vulcan ends

ed_mines
 

I thought Vulcan ends had bullseye shaped indentations on box cars and
flattened bullseyes on gons.

The box car end I've described is shown in Wayner's PRR freight car
book.

The gon end was shown years ago in MM.

Ed


Re: Vulcan and other ends, etc.

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., destron@... wrote:


elusive and short lived Vulcan end.
<snip>
potential patent. It didn't stay on the market long, but some were
applied to cars built for a few roads.
Do you know who else used these, and for how long? Any ideas as to
whether
any were found on cars in interchange in 1952?
Frank,

The plot thickens. I went back to the illustration in the 1922 Cyc.
and find the "Vulcan end" with the vertical ribs is on a W&LE car,
27024. Scrolling down the page, there is another illustration labeled
"Vulcan ends", that has horizontal ribs, similar to the ends used on
USRA car, except the ribs protrude into the car rather than outward.
Both were sold by the Chicago-Cleveland Car Roofing Co. The vertical
rib Vulcan end on the W&LE car has two panels, each with six inward
facing ribs.

I thought that the Pere Marquette RR had boxcars with vertical rib
ends, as there used to be one in a junk yard on the south side of
Chicago, but I wanted to confirm I had the railroad correct, so I
consulted "Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars" by Million and Paten.
PM had several series of cars with vertical ribs, but the equipment
diagrams reproduced in the book state these are Murphy ends, same rand
as the common horizontal corrugated end. These ends on the PM cars are
two panels with eight ribs each, and the ribs protrude outward from
the car. At the time the Murphy name was being used by the Standard
Railway Equipment Co., and it appears that both companies had products
that competed directly with each other, and to a lesser extent with
the Hutchins offerings.

Dennis


Re: Whats a 1913 "Barber" Truck?

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Bob, at least one of the readers can confirm your belief.

Tony, pay attention as we move along here . . .

SGL

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Bob Karig
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2007 9:11 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Whats a 1913 "Barber" Truck?

I believe that most people reading this discussion realize
that (1) we have
not been discussing Bettendorf T-section side frames but
rather side frames
with separable journal boxes, e.g., "Andrews" side frames,
and (2) the same
principle applies to side frames with separable journal boxes as Dr.
Hendrickson made with Bettendorf side frames, that is, to
label all side
frames with separable journal boxes as "Andrews" is commiting
the same sin
as labeling all side frames with integral journal boxes as
"Bettendorf."

This is the last that I plan to say on this matter.

Bob Karig

What Mr. Karig either fails to realize or wilfully ignores is that
the quotation from Mr. Hendrickson is about cast steel sideframes
generally, mislabeled by modelers as "Bettendorf," while the more
recent discussion on this list is about the original
Bettendorf trucks,
with T-section sideframes. To confuse these two situations
is either to
try and evade history, or to be unable to understand it. I
leave it to
Mr. Karig to tell us which one it is.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705




Re: P2K Mathers cars accuracy

Ray Breyer <rbreyer@...>
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Hillman
One case in point. I impetuosly purchased Walthers, Proto 2000 Series;
Mather 40ft Stock Car, GM&O
Mather 40ft boxcar, C&IM
Mather 40ft Boxcar, C&EI
It was late, I'd had a couple of beers, I liked the way the cars
looked and assumed that PROBABLY (?) the manufacturer had done their
prototype research duty. (Or "close" enough)
Now, I have to do some research, as to how close I'd come to
my "guess" at such accuracy.


Paul,

The GM&O Mathers car is wrong for your date of 1947. The Mathers cars on the
GM&O roster came from the Alton, which was absorbed in 1949. You need the
P2K Alton cars, which are decorated correct.

The C&IM car is completely screwed up. The cars are decorated with yellow
sides and black roofs and ends. The cars should correctly be painted with
orange sides and mineral red roof and ends. The lettering itself is correct.
I'm using them as-is for now, but will eventually try to "fix" the cars, by
repainting the black and attempting to "orange up" the sides with a wash and
lots of weathering.

Ray Breyer
Modeling the Peoria, IL, area circa 1949.


Re: Whats a 1913 "Barber" Truck?

Bob Karig <karig@...>
 

I believe that most people reading this discussion realize that (1) we have not been discussing Bettendorf T-section side frames but rather side frames with separable journal boxes, e.g., "Andrews" side frames, and (2) the same principle applies to side frames with separable journal boxes as Dr. Hendrickson made with Bettendorf side frames, that is, to label all side frames with separable journal boxes as "Andrews" is commiting the same sin as labeling all side frames with integral journal boxes as "Bettendorf."

This is the last that I plan to say on this matter.

Bob Karig

What Mr. Karig either fails to realize or wilfully ignores is that
the quotation from Mr. Hendrickson is about cast steel sideframes
generally, mislabeled by modelers as "Bettendorf," while the more
recent discussion on this list is about the original Bettendorf trucks,
with T-section sideframes. To confuse these two situations is either to
try and evade history, or to be unable to understand it. I leave it to
Mr. Karig to tell us which one it is.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705


Re: Mather Box Cars

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Paul & Bernice Hillman"
<chris_hillman@...> wrote:

On Feb 18, 2007, at 1:18 PM, Paul & Bernice Hillman wrote:
****************************************************************
Of course it's true that the car's build/rebuild date is highly
relevant to the period one's modelling and has to be considered when
purchasing, painting & building a model car.
--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@> wrote:


... Standard practice was to paint over the old data
and stencil the new reweigh station symbol and date over it (as well
as new light weight and load limit, if those had changed) – unless,
of course, the entire car was in need of repainting.

Richard Hendrickson
Which makes re-weight dates a non-issue when buying model freightcars.
Since many, if not most, of the cars in service were running with the
station symbol and date applied over a patch of fresh and different
looking paint, simply paint over the existing date, or cover it with a
small rectangle cut from pre-painted decal sheet, and add the new info
with decals. The same procedure can be used with the journal repack
information usually stenciled over the right truck, which also was
changed periodically. Air brake equipment was also serviced
periodically and the date stenciled on the car, but as it was
stenciled on the reservoir, road grime on freightcars quickly hid it.

These periodic inspection dates are still applied to freightcars
today, but since the introduction of the black "consolidated stencil"
in the sixties, all the dates are stick-on numbers, and we no longer
see the painted patches behind the stenciled information.

Dennis


Re: CCBX 501

h8fan
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

You can save yourself the trouble of looking for a prototype photo,
for
a couple of reasons. First, in design, dimensions, and details the
Model Power toy tank car isn't even close to ANY actual prototype
tank
cars. Second, what it vaguely resembles is a 10,000 gal. ICC-103,
but
CCBX is shown in the 1/53 ORER to have been a 10,200 gal. ICC-104 A
high pressure insulated acid tank and thus nothing even remotely
like
the Model Power tank car in appearance. Of course, the same P/L
scheme
may have been applied to other CCBX car, but Carbide & Carbon
Chemicals
Co.'s tank car fleet consisted almost entirely either of insulated
high
pressure acid cars or flat cars equipped for carrying separate
small
containers; in fact, in 1953 they owned exactly one 10,000 gal. ARA
III/ICC-103.

Richard Hendrickson
Thanks for the info Richard. I didn't really expect the Model Power
car to be a great model of a specific car. That same green and white
car has also been produced by Varney and Mantua/Tyco. I was more
interested in the green and white paint, if there are any photos of
the green and white Union Carbide cars, what they carried, when and
what Carbide plants they served.
Thanks agian.
Jim B.


Re: Whats a 1913 "Barber" Truck?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson said in RP Cyc:
"...Many trucks made in the 1920s and almost all trucks from the 1930s
through 1950s had integral journal boxes but they were often quite
different from each other in many details of design and appearance. To
indiscriminately identify them as "Bettendorf" trucks is to obscure those
differences. The term "Bettendorf" should therefore be applied only to
trucks designed and/or built by the Bettendorf company (which ceased to
manufacture freight car trucks in 1942). Other trucks should be identifed
by design and builder, when possible..."
Bob Karig wrote:
Personally, I believe that the same principal recommended by this eminent
historian for trucks with cast-in journal boxes should also apply to side
frames with separable journal boxes, and that is what I have attempted to do.
What Mr. Karig either fails to realize or wilfully ignores is that the quotation from Mr. Hendrickson is about cast steel sideframes generally, mislabeled by modelers as "Bettendorf," while the more recent discussion on this list is about the original Bettendorf trucks, with T-section sideframes. To confuse these two situations is either to try and evade history, or to be unable to understand it. I leave it to Mr. Karig to tell us which one it is.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

133181 - 133200 of 193476