Date   

question for RDG experts

ed_mines
 

John LaRue has a very nice negative of a classic 9 ribbed RDG STM era
hopper with a reverse Murphy end (the end on USRA composite gons). The
car shown has the colorful rectangular herald so the photo must have
been taken in the '40s.

A similar car is shown in the Cline/Cullotta book with a flat end.

In an old FD&S (Flags, Diamonds and Statues - the Anthracite society
magazine) there was an article about repairing those hoppers - some
have Murphy panels in the slope sheets besides the ends.

My question is - were these replacement ends on most cars or just a few?

I have a nice photo of a RDG double sheathed box car with a 2 section
reverse Murphy end. It's one of the few good photos I have from the
Penn State RR museum (I have more than a few not so good ones). Maybe
it's one of the few photos I have that few others on the this list have.

A few years ago I bought some sprues of USRA gon parts from
Intermountain (very reasonable price). I think those USRA gon ends
would fit into a model of one of these RDG hoppers.

Did those stamped panels have any other uses besides railroad cars?

Ed


Re: SSW Boxcar 37981

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 21, 2007, at 8:29 AM, David Karkoski wrote:

I am about to start construction of a Sunshine model of the 37000 series
SSW cars. Two end variations were used one had a three rib Murphy
extension panel and the other was fabricate from flat sheet stock with
Hutchison car lines as stiffeners. I am going to letter the car for a
specific prototype number, 37981, and was seeking assistance in
determining which type of end was used on this car. Is there anyone on
the list who could provide any definitive information as to the end
style on this car?
AFAIK, there's no conclusive evidence as to which type of end extensions went on which cars when they were rebuilt with taller bodies. However, I have photos showing several other cars, some with the three-corrugated-rib extensions and other with the two-rectangular-rib extensions, and can scan these for you if you're not absolutely committed to modeling SSW 37981.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: P2K Mathers cars accuracy

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Ray is half right. Painting the roof and ends black on the L-L C&IM models was an error. As for the color of the sides, the color reproductions on slides are, of course, notoriously unreliable, varying widely with exposure, lighting, and other variables. However, I've seen several color images of the C&IM box cars and in all of them the sides appear to be yellow, not orange. I think the color on the L-L models is just about right.
Could the cars have been orange originally and faded toward yellow? Orange paint did that on freight cars, reefers among them.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: P2K Mathers cars accuracy

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 21, 2007, at 7:11 AM, Ray Breyer wrote:

The Walthers, GM&O stockcar, #108051, has a reweigh date of C.R.10-
51. Would that make it an 1949 Alton car?
It looks like the "new" GM&O repainted Alton equipment quickly after the
merger. The 1950 ORER only lists two car types that were still lettered for
the Alton, and neither were the Mathers cars. They're listed as having GM&O
reporting marks, so I suspect that these 275 cars were sent back to Mathers
in 1949 and quickly relettered. A 10-51 repack date would make these cars
mostly appropriate for a 1952-1954 set layout.
Ray's statement that the Alton was acquired by the GM&O in 1949 is incorrect. The GM&O purchased the Alton in 1947 and immediately began restenciling Alton rolling stock with GM&O reporting marks. the 1/48 ORER shows the Alton's cars under the GM&O entry, as well as some Alton cars already restenciled GM&O. By 10/50, only 78 cars (all box cars) remained under Alton reporting marks.

The jury's out on C&IM colors for their Mathers cars. Some old-timers from
the area claim to remember yellow C&IM boxcars, but the only color photos
that I have show them as orange. Paul Stringham's excellent book on the C&IM
mentions them as being yellow. Until I actually see some PROOF that these
cars were at one time painted yellow and black, I'm sticking with orange and
brown.
Ray is half right. Painting the roof and ends black on the L-L C&IM models was an error. As for the color of the sides, the color reproductions on slides are, of course, notoriously unreliable, varying widely with exposure, lighting, and other variables. However, I've seen several color images of the C&IM box cars and in all of them the sides appear to be yellow, not orange. I think the color on the L-L models is just about right.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: The DS/SS split - More results

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 21, 4:43am, laramielarry wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] The DS/SS split - More results

Thanks to Jeff Aley, the Union Pacific now joins Club 100*. Here is its
summary table with his data added in:

UP__________%___Number
DS________2.0%_____473
SS________0.1%______12
Steel_____97.9%___22,870
Other_____0.0%________0
Known___100.0%___23,355
Unknown___0.0%_______7
Total____100.0%___23,362

Thanks, Jeff!

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Larry,

You're welcome! I'd like to get rid of that asterisk; can you
send me the info on the 7 unknown cars?

Thanks,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


SSW Boxcar 37981

David Karkoski <karkoskd@...>
 

I am about to start construction of a Sunshine model of the 37000 series
SSW cars. Two end variations were used one had a three rib Murphy
extension panel and the other was fabricate from flat sheet stock with
Hutchison car lines as stiffeners. I am going to letter the car for a
specific prototype number, 37981, and was seeking assistance in
determining which type of end was used on this car. Is there anyone on
the list who could provide any definitive information as to the end
style on this car?



Thanks,



David Karkoski


Re: DS/SS/Steel Boxcar Split as per 7/1950 ORER - US Class I RR's, Regions and Total

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

I will add to the files of the STEFA group ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STEFA/files/ ), an Excel spreadsheet which breaks down the DS/SS/Steel Boxcar data which Larry Ostresh has collected into RR's, and Regions so that users may gather what percentage of each category was to the total US Boxcars listed in the July 1950 ORER.

29 different RR's owned at least 1% of the July 1950 Boxcar Fleet. These 29 RR's owned about 84% of that Fleet. To provide a geographic representation of the 16% boxcars of RR's not owning 1% of the Boxcar Fleet, the Boxcars are broken down into the eight ICC Regions.

Those eight ICC Regions are then split into boxcars owned by RR's of that Region who owned more than 1% of the National Boxcar Fleet, and those RR's not owning more than 1%. Below this Regional breakout are the DS/SS/Steel Boxcar split of the larger RR's in the Region including all those having more than 1% of the National Boxcar Fleet.

The columns of the spreadsheet are divided into three parts:

1) The number of DS, SS, Steel, etc. cars;
2) The percentages of each type to the Total Known 705,955 "Known" Boxcars (comprising 99.36% of the National Boxcar fleet);
3) How many DS/SS/Steel & Other Boxcars there should be in a 100 boxcar fleet. This is subject to rounding to form a matrix.

For instance, RR's the New England Region owned 2% of the National Fleet, but no one RR owned more than 1% of the Fleet. Therefore, the modeler should allocate one steel car, probably the NH , and one SS car, either the B&M, MEC or BAR.

In the Central East Region, whose RR's owned about 16% of the National Fleet, the PRR should be represented with nine cars (1 SS and 8 Steel), the B&O with four, RDG with one, and two from the remaining RR's in the Region (CNJ, C&EI, DT&I, WM, etc.).

Because there were about 26,000 PRR X29's, between three and four of the PRR's nine car allocation should be X29's, one X26 (SS), one X31, and a miscellaneous assortment for the remainder. The B&O owned about 13,000 M26's which rounds to two percent of the National Fleet. In the Great Lakes Region, the NYC owned about 19,000 "Steel ARA" Boxcars having cubic capacities of 2,955 feet which would amount to about three cars of the nine percent of the National Fleet. What car classes would comprise the boxcars of other RR's would be at the discretion of the user so long as the DS/SS/Steel split is maintained.

This DS/SS/Steel split is good for July 1950 only. Assuming that only steel boxcars were built after WW II, the percentages of steel boxcars in the national boxcar fleet increased while the DS and SS percentages declines. Furthermore, assuming that DS cars represented older designs, they, in turn, were retired in greater numbers than SS ones.

The last caveat is that this Excel Spreadsheet assumes an even distribution of Boxcars throughout. There should be higher percentage of Home Road Cars, as well as those having special circumstances attached like SP boxcars going over Sherman Hill.

Tim Gilbert


Re: P2K Mathers cars accuracy

Ray Breyer <rbreyer@...>
 

Hi Paul,

The Walthers, GM&O stockcar, #108051, has a reweigh date of C.R.10-
51. Would that make it an 1949 Alton car?
It looks like the "new" GM&O repainted Alton equipment quickly after the
merger. The 1950 ORER only lists two car types that were still lettered for
the Alton, and neither were the Mathers cars. They're listed as having GM&O
reporting marks, so I suspect that these 275 cars were sent back to Mathers
in 1949 and quickly relettered. A 10-51 repack date would make these cars
mostly appropriate for a 1952-1954 set layout.


What P2K "correct" car for 1947 are you referring to? Excuse my temporary
ignorance here but, who makes it?? What are the physical differences such
that the Walthers car just couldn't be relettered/repainted/reworked?
P2K came out with a double deck kit lettered for the Alton, P/N 30941 (also
available as RTR and as six packs of kits and RTR). They're listed as in
stock on the Walthers website. I haven't run across any photos of Alton
Mathers stock cars, so I'm running mine as they came straight out of the
box.


Strange that the C&IM car has such a color mistake. Mine has a
reweigh date of C.R.5-43. C&IM never did a yellow & black scheme?
The jury's out on C&IM colors for their Mathers cars. Some old-timers from
the area claim to remember yellow C&IM boxcars, but the only color photos
that I have show them as orange. Paul Stringham's excellent book on the C&IM
mentions them as being yellow. Until I actually see some PROOF that these
cars were at one time painted yellow and black, I'm sticking with orange and
brown.


I'm modeling the Chicago area, circa 1947, with one center-point of
Dolton, Illinois, where 7 railroads crossed. Those were very
interesting RR days back then & there.
Dolton IS a pretty interesting area to model. My new layout will be anchored
by Bloomington (NKP/P&E/IC/GM&O/ITC) and Gibson City (NKP/IC/Wabash). There
are hundreds of great interchange towns in Illinois that would make neat
layouts; too bad most modelers consider the Midwest to be less than
interesting to model!

Ray Breyer


Re: P2K Mathers cars accuracy

Paul Hillman
 

Ray,

The Walthers, GM&O stockcar, #108051, has a reweigh date of C.R.10-
51. Would that make it an 1949 Alton car? What P2K "correct" car for
1947 are you referring to? Excuse my temporary ignorance here but,
who makes it?? What are the physical differences such that the
Walthers car just couldn't be relettered/repainted/reworked?

Strange that the C&IM car has such a color mistake. Mine has a
reweigh date of C.R.5-43. C&IM never did a yellow & black scheme?

I'm modeling the Chicago area, circa 1947, with one center-point of
Dolton, Illinois, where 7 railroads crossed. Those were very
interesting RR days back then & there.

Thanks, Paul Hillman


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Breyer" <rbreyer@...> wrote:
Paul,

The GM&O Mathers car is wrong for your date of 1947. The Mathers
cars on the
GM&O roster came from the Alton, which was absorbed in 1949. You
need the
P2K Alton cars, which are decorated correct.

The C&IM car is completely screwed up. The cars are decorated with
yellow
sides and black roofs and ends. The cars should correctly be
painted with
orange sides and mineral red roof and ends. The lettering itself is
correct.
I'm using them as-is for now, but will eventually try to "fix" the
cars, by
repainting the black and attempting to "orange up" the sides with a
wash and
lots of weathering.

Ray Breyer
Modeling the Peoria, IL, area circa 1949.


Re: Accurate STMFC freight car list

Paul Hillman
 

Jeff,

I checked out the RPI and am sending them the $8.00 for a month's
access. Nehrich has presented quite a list and it should prove
helpful. I've always liked his work in mag articles that he's done.
I'm sure he's tried to do some serious and accurate work.

It's strange how one seemingly indisputable, dependable source will
list it's info, then another indisputable source presents opposite
info rebuking the first's. So, who can one believe until, in the end,
we ultimately verify everything for ourselves??? I myself kind of go
for the, "that's close enough" approach, sorta???

Thanks, Paul Hillman

*******************************************************************

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, jaley <jaley@...> wrote:

Paul,

John Nehrich has published such a guide through the RPI
Club. I
will leave it to you and Google to come up with a citation.

I will note two things:
1) Not everyone on this list will necessarily agree with John's
classification of what is accurate and what is not.
2) We have covered this topic several times before, and no
consensus has
ever been reached. That should not preclude you, however, from
making the
attempt, if you so desire.

If you'd like to see how big a quagmire this really is, take
just
one "accurate" car and make a statement about it. For example, "The
Intermountain 'PFE R-40-23' is an accurate model of a PFE R-40-23
reefer."

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@...
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


The DS/SS split - More results

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Thanks to Jeff Aley, the Union Pacific now joins Club 100*. Here is its
summary table with his data added in:

UP__________%___Number
DS________2.0%_____473
SS________0.1%______12
Steel_____97.9%___22,870
Other_____0.0%________0
Known___100.0%___23,355
Unknown___0.0%_______7
Total____100.0%___23,362

Thanks, Jeff!

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: Railway Express Colors

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

RICH NUNN wrote:
However, I failed to mention in my last post, that the car I referenced, was a 50 foot wood-sheathed express reefer, probably painted in the 20's, when it was originally built. . . My RR cuts off on Dec 31st, 1949, so my interests primarily lie in the earlier type cars.
The car, being wood-sheathed, would certainly have been painted at least once by 1949 and possibly as many as three times. Passenger-assigned equipment got good treatment, even in the Depression, and the rule of thumb with wood sheathing was to try and paint it every ten years.
In the aftermath of World War II, many roads were very active in scrapping the worn-out old cars used during the war, repairing and repainting active cars, and of course buying lots of new ones. If I had to guess, I'd bet that REA repainted such a car between 1945 and 1949.
If someone on the list has more specific information, I'd be interested to see it.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Railway Express Colors

rfederle@...
 

When I spoke with the representative she did not show anything earlier than the 1954 data. I asked if she had any color chip charts and she said not for products that old. That is whyshe recommended going to the delaler and have them mix and spray out a sample.

My Grandfather worked for REA from the 40's through 1969. There was a company magazine he would receive and I have quite a number of these. They are stored in Ohio however and not readily accessible. I will dig around however and see if I can come up with anything to help.

Robert Federle
---- RICH NUNN <flyingtigers_nunn@yahoo.com> wrote:

Dear Robert and other listers:

First, let me thank you for following up on the REA color question. There is no misunderstanding on my part about the 50's color scheme on REA cars. Thanks again for your hard work.

However, I failed to mention in my last post, that the car I referenced, was a 50 foot wood-sheathed express reefer, probably painted in the 20's, when it was originally built. I believe the green color I had reference to was a light green, similar to the one MDC (I'm dating myself here) used on their 50 foot angle roofed express reefer.

Mr Hawkins was kind enough to point out that the car should have a dark green band (around the top rail next to the roof?) and perhaps dark green ends. My RR cuts off on Dec 31st, 1949, so my interests primarily lie in the earlier type cars.

Any further help you can give on this matter would be of intense interest to me.

Thanks again,

Rich Nunn


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Re: The DS/SS split - More Unknowns

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 11, 9:15am, laramielarry wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: The DS/SS split - More Unknowns
UP, XM, Box, 75000-75397, 40'5", 6'1", 100000, 42
According to the UP Diagram of these cars:
UNDERFRAME - RIVETED - BETTENDORF
SUPER-STRUCTURE - WOOD SHEATHING, POSTS & BRACES

These were double-sheathed cars rebuilt from A-50-2 automobile cars.

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Railway Express Colors

RICH NUNN <flyingtigers_nunn@...>
 

Dear Robert and other listers:

First, let me thank you for following up on the REA color question. There is no misunderstanding on my part about the 50's color scheme on REA cars. Thanks again for your hard work.

However, I failed to mention in my last post, that the car I referenced, was a 50 foot wood-sheathed express reefer, probably painted in the 20's, when it was originally built. I believe the green color I had reference to was a light green, similar to the one MDC (I'm dating myself here) used on their 50 foot angle roofed express reefer.

Mr Hawkins was kind enough to point out that the car should have a dark green band (around the top rail next to the roof?) and perhaps dark green ends. My RR cuts off on Dec 31st, 1949, so my interests primarily lie in the earlier type cars.

Any further help you can give on this matter would be of intense interest to me.

Thanks again,

Rich Nunn


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Railway Express Colors

rfederle@...
 

Hello,

I believe on an earlier thread there were questions about the colors for the Railway Express Cars of the 50's.

In a phone conversation today with DuPont I gathered the following information:

Current DuPont formula numbers and qualities available for the three Railway Express Agency colors:

1954 Green N0100HN cross reference 6202K and Nason qualities
1955-57 Green N0101HN cross reference 1317K and Nason qualities
1955-57 Red N0622HN cross reference 24118A and Nason qualities

Please present the above DuPont formula numbers to a DuPont distributor in your area and they will be able look up the formulas on their computer software. The distributors also can call DuPont Color's toll free number 1-800-338-7668, select prompt number 3 for Color to get formulas. You may also want to request a sprayout of a test panel.

I dont know if this will help anyone or not but they did have the colors still on file. So with the formulas they should be able to reproduce a match. Next question would be how little a quantity will they produce and how compatible it would be with a model?

Thought it may help someone.

Robert Federle


Re: Accurate STMFC freight car list

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jeff Aley wrote:
John Nehrich has published such a guide through the RPI Club . . .
1) Not everyone on this list will necessarily agree with John's classification of what is accurate and what is not.
Truer words were never spoken. (!)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Accurate STMFC freight car list

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 17, 1:54am, Paul & Bernice Hillman wrote:
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Accurate STMFC freight car list
Marty,

Well, maybe a list like that would turn out to be rather small, about
which model cars were very true replicas of the prototypes. But,
perhaps one (or more) of the prototype masters on this list could
produce such a book or booklet for SALE on the subject.

Paul,

John Nehrich has published such a guide through the RPI Club. I
will leave it to you and Google to come up with a citation.

I will note two things:
1) Not everyone on this list will necessarily agree with John's
classification of what is accurate and what is not.
2) We have covered this topic several times before, and no consensus has
ever been reached. That should not preclude you, however, from making the
attempt, if you so desire.

If you'd like to see how big a quagmire this really is, take just
one "accurate" car and make a statement about it. For example, "The
Intermountain 'PFE R-40-23' is an accurate model of a PFE R-40-23 reefer."

Regards,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Vulcan and other ends, etc.

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Breyer" <rbreyer@...> wrote:

....None of my photos show the insides of these cars, so I Since
these NKP
blister panel hoppers are pretty rare (I've only seen three photos
of them!)
I don't think that we'll ever know for sure.

Ray Breyer
Ray -

I read the 4/1948 ORER data and the NKP diagrams for the NKP#30750-
#31749 series of composite cars together to conclude that (391)
hoppers in this series still had wood sides with the corrugated ends
as slope sheets, and (408) all-steel hoppers in this series had the
corrugated slope sheets as well.

This is in addition to ALL of the (149) cars in NKP#32000-#32149 with
the ugly 6-panel sides.

The above conclusions are based on a comparison of the cubic
capacities of the cars on the NKP diagrams with the
notes/differences/cubic capacities noted in the ORER for the
composite series (#30750-#31749).

In 1949, NKP started installing flat 1/4" slope sheets in all these
cars. The cubic capacity of the 1/4" steel flat slope sheet cars
does not agree with the cubic capacity on the NKP diagrams (or in
later ORER's) for any of the CORRUGATED slope sheet cars. The above
ORER data agrees perfectly with diagram data for the corrugated slope
sheet cars. In fact, EVERY one of the cars with corrugated floors is
LISTED BY NUMBER in the ORER as being different from the remaining
(36) wood floor cars in original condition.

The only problem (?) is that the NKP diagram for the composite series
of hoppers only indicates that a few of those cars had the corrugated
floors installed in them - no where near as many as 391+408=799
cars! I wonder if that is because the NKP diagram I have was not
updated past 1938. They must have continued the program of
installing these slope sheets in earnest during and after WWII. (As
usual, I am at work and my train stuff is at home!)

What this means is that a photo of a composite car, or of an all-
steel car taken prior to 1948, but after WWII stands a good chance of
being a car with the corrugated slpoe sheets!

Therefore - do you have any 1940-era photos of the composite or all-
steel versions of the NKP #30750 series cars which would show the
slope sheets - either from above or from below, as in a well-lighted
end view?

I apologize for all this bandwidth - maybe we should continue off
line!

A.T. Kott


The DS/SS split - More results

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Thanks to Richard Hendrickson the ATSF is now over 99% Known. Here is
its summary table:

ATSF________%____Number
DS________1.2%_______405
SS_______21.7%______7,549
Steel_____68.8%_____23,955
Other_____7.9%______2,755 (mostly "Panel")
Known____99.5%_____34,664
Unknown___0.5%_______164
Total____100.0%_____34,828


Thanks Richard!

Best wishes

Larry Ostresh

Laramie, Wyoming

123881 - 123900 of 184214