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Re: Chalk marks
Barry Roth
Thank you, Tim and Ben. I will probably try the pencil route before trying to get the dried black ink out of my finest Rapidograph pens! Tim, what do you mean by "pigment-based"? If I remember right, colored pencils have a binder that is oily or waxy (they are, literally, closer kin to crayons than to graphite pencils) and does make them stick.
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Barry Roth timboconnor@comcast.net wrote: I use ordinary artist's pencils for chalk marks. You can get white, or I prefer "French Grey" which looks like faded chalk. Just sharpen them. The pencils are pigment-based so they will stick and not smear. The Sunshine decals are good if you need to know what the chalk marks look like.
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From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net> Barry Roth asked: --------------------------------- Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.
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Re: Chalk marks
Mike Brock <brockm@...>
Richard Hendrickson notes:
"Also, don't forget destination cards, which were stapled onto the destination card boards (or, on wood sheathed cars, just about anywhere the car clerks chose to put them, though usually on the doors). These were small white cardboard tags with destinations either printed or written on them." There is a video produced by Mark I Video named Omaha: Rail Metropolis. This video shows a clerk compiling such cards and then yard crews tacking them to various cars. The UP frt conductor's book I have includes the numbers...0-6 [ as I recall ] in the destination column. Mike Brock
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Re: Chalk marks
Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
The CB&Q supplied both white and yellow chalk. Probably whatever was cheaper
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when the storehouse had to re-stock. The sticks were round, about an inch in diameter, and must have been either 4" or 5" long. What to put on a car? Unless you have a detail photo of one car you are trying to model just about anything will work. While they would only make sense to the yard where the cars were marked there were some common Railroad language terms. Some common suggestions: Rip, Weigh, Scale, Pit, Dock, Hole, Team, East, West, North, South, the initials of other Railroads, any kind of number. There were some fairly standard abbreviations for Railroads. At least in the Chicago area: CB&Q = Q CMStP&P = St Paul IHB = IHBelt semi-officially, also Harbor NYC = C PRR = Pa AT&SF = SF or SFE EJ&E = J When checking cars or making up lists it was common to drop the "X" from the end of frequently seen car initials. As in: FGEX = FGE BREX = BRE WFEX = WFE CRLX = CRL Russ
----- Original Message -----
From: timboconnor@comcast.net To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 22 February, 2007 10:58 Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Chalk marks I use ordinary artist's pencils for chalk marks. You can get white, or I prefer "French Grey" which looks like faded chalk. Just sharpen them. The pencils are pigment-based so they will stick and not smear. The Sunshine decals are good if you need to know what the chalk marks look like.
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Re: Chalk marks
armprem
Let us complicate matters even more.Chalk marks were rarely erased and often were placed on a car by a connecting or other foreign road ;which leads me to ask,was there a common system or language ?It seems to me that this might cause some confusion for switch crews.Armand premo
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----- Original Message -----
From: "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@sympatico.ca> To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 11:13 AM Subject: [STMFC] Re: Chalk marks > Armand, > From what I've been able to gather from the photos that I've seen, the > chalkmarks are made by the local crews or l.c.l. dock people to help > tell them the destinations of the cars in question. A simple set of > marks understood by all saves one from having to constantly check the > paperwork. Useful when it's raining as well. > > Pierre Oliver > > > --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "armprem1" <armprem@...> wrote: >> >> As far as I know there has been little or no discussion about chalk >> marks on car sides.What is their purpose?What information do they >> convey?Were there common practices as to location on the car.This is an >> area that is rarely modeled by many modelers,but IMHO is as vital as >> weathering.What are your thoughts?Armand Premo >> > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups - Join or create groups, clubs, forums & communities. Links > > > > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 4:35 PM > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Chalk marks
Richard Hendrickson
On Feb 22, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Barry Roth wrote:
And also, what is a source for decals/dry transfers of them? (I presume dry transfers are preferable because they can be applied over weathering.)For many years I've applied chalk markings on freight car models in what I believe is the quickest, easiest, and most realistic fashion by using a very sharp white Prismacolor artist's pencil, readily available at any art supply store. Look at photos of steam era freight cars to see what kind of markings were put on them and then just copy them. I supplied the data for the Clover House transfers, which are all based on photos. However, the problem I have with dry transfers, decals, and pens is that the chalk marks are too opaque and sharp-edged; the real ones were softer and a bit fuzzy, which is exactly the effect produced by a white pencil. Also, don't forget destination cards, which were stapled onto the destination card boards (or, on wood sheathed cars, just about anywhere the car clerks chose to put them, though usually on the doors). These were small white cardboard tags with destinations either printed or written on them. The printing doesn't have to be there in HO scale; in photos, it's hardly ever visible. But the cards were on every car in a train, showing where it was going (even on empties). Old cards were often on cars in yards, as well, and sometimes on cars enroute though they were supposed to be removed when a new card was attached. These cards are easily modeled with small square bits of white decal. Cars ready for loading often had cleaning cards indicating that they had been cleaned and what kind of cargo they were suitable for. Microscale decal set 87-975 includes a variety of these cleaning cards, as well as a full range of steam era warning placards for dangerous loads and various special instruction placards (DO NOT HUMP, UNLOAD THIS SIDE, FRAGILE, etc.) Most cars didn't have warning or special instruction placards, but having them on a few of your models adds realism. Richard Hendrickson
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Re: The DS/SS split - More results
jaley <jaley@...>
On Feb 21, 10:49pm, laramielarry wrote:
Road, AAR, Kind, Series, IL, Door, Capy, Qtyno info. UP, XM, Box, 121999-121999, 40'6", 6'0", 100000, 1no info. UP LA&SL, XM, Box, 132000-132292, 40'0", 6'0", 100000, 1Bettendorf underframe, wood supertructure. Double sheathed. UP OWR&N, XM, Box, 301000-301113, 40'0", 6'0", 100000, 1ditto. UP LA&SL, XM, Box, 304800-304871, 40'0", 6'0", 100000, 2ditto. I'll have to do some digging to come up with those last 3 cars. Regards, -Jeff -- Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com DPG Chipsets Product Engineering Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA (916) 356-3533
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Re: Chalk marks
I use ordinary artist's pencils for chalk marks. You can get white, or I
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prefer "French Grey" which looks like faded chalk. Just sharpen them. The pencils are pigment-based so they will stick and not smear. The Sunshine decals are good if you need to know what the chalk marks look like.
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net> Barry Roth asked:
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Re: Chalk marks
Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
Larry,
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That guy would get along great with a hold track Clerk that worked for the St Paul at Bensenville. They would send various odd cars to the IHB with just a piece of paper that said what road the car went to. When these cars showed up and you called him his first question was, "Who did you get the car from?" When we replied, "From the IHB", his standard answer was "Then it's a problem between you and the IHB and none of my business." The St Paul had a car distributor in Chicago that was adamant that the BN owned the cars lettered "RBNX". I doubt that many of these cars got loaded very often since they spent weeks bouncing back and forth. IIRC someone finally thought of a dodge and started "Home Shopping" them. I think FGE had to provide us with a routing to Potomac Yard. I know, out of scope. I'm sure that there were the same problems before 1960, just different versions. Russ
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From: ljack70117@adelphia.net To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 22 February, 2007 10:33 Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Chalk marks Did I tell you about the night the yard clerk check an out bound train and had one car they could not find any paper work on it. They looked every. So someone said call Joe ( he was the clerk that just went off duty) he will know about it. So they did and he said it was going to Kansas City. They then ask him what was in it and he said to put it down a lumber. They said that can not be as this was a tank car. Joe said "Why do you care. You do not have to unload it". Big grin. Thank you Larry Jackman Boca Raton FL ljack70117@adelphia.net I was born with nothing and I have most of it left
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Re: Chalk marks
benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
Barry Roth asked:
"And also, what is a source for decals/dry transfers of them? (I presume dry transfers are preferable because they can be applied over weathering.)" In HO scale, Sunshine decals (see page 29 of the Sunshine kit list in the group files section for the individual sets) and Clover House dry transfers. Also, Ted Culotta suggested using a Koh-i-noor Rapidograph pen with some very, very fine points and some white ink for chalk marks that are more subtle in addition to those available in the decal and dry transfer sets. See Charlie Duckworth's article in the November 1994 issue of Mainline Modeler for more details. Ben Hom
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Re: Speedwitch & Sunshine
Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
Eric,
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I don't think he was there. I looked for Ted's booth myself, and didn't find him. Martin Loftin wasn't there either. F&C, Westerfield, and Tichy got most of my money. There weren't as many vendors at Timonium this time compared with last year. I wonder if it was because it was Super Bowl weekend? Kind regards, Garth G. Groff Eric Hansmann wrote:
--- Tom Olsen wrote:
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Re: Chalk marks
ljack70117@...
As an switch crew forman on the Santa Fe I never used chalk marks. We used our switch lists and this was as fast as using the marks. In our yard we had a clerk that went down each incoming train and stapled destination cards to the cars. I never paid any attention to those either.
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Some crews liked them. Most of us did not. Did I tell you about the night the yard clerk check an out bound train and had one car they could not find any paper work on it. They looked every. So someone said call Joe ( he was the clerk that just went off duty) he will know about it. So they did and he said it was going to Kansas City. They then ask him what was in it and he said to put it down a lumber. They said that can not be as this was a tank car. Joe said "Why do you care. You do not have to unload it". Big grin. Thank you Larry Jackman Boca Raton FL ljack70117@adelphia.net I was born with nothing and I have most of it left
On Feb 22, 2007, at 11:13 AM, pierreoliver2003 wrote:
Armand,
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Re: Chalk marks
Barry Roth
And also, what is a source for decals/dry transfers of them? (I presume dry transfers are preferable because they can be applied over weathering.)
Barry Roth armprem1 <armprem@surfglobal.net> wrote: As far as I know there has been little or no discussion about chalk marks on car sides.What is their purpose?What information do they convey?Were there common practices as to location on the car.This is an area that is rarely modeled by many modelers,but IMHO is as vital as weathering.What are your thoughts?Armand Premo . --------------------------------- Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
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Re: Chalk marks
Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
Armand,
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Most of the time chalk marks identified a track or a destination grouping. Could be numeric, could use simple words like "East" or "West". Could even use the telegraph calls of the stations where the cars went. [The most common way Dispatchers showed setouts and pickups on a train sheet was with telegraph calls. Some still do that to this day. If we were still using paper train sheets I would probably use that system but paper train sheets are long gone.] There were some yards and some crews that could not work without them. I can recall just one Conductor that was on a pool turn that had to mark the yard. Since they were being paid by the mile this was their time that they were wasting, not the Railroad's. His Brakemen always bitched to me about why I didn't mark the yard. I told them that I did not even know his system and that they would just be waiting for me rather than waiting for him. That train was often standing there waiting for the delivery that needed to be switched and picked up. Was usually in a high speed mode anyway. We always kept a full box of chalk on hand but it was very seldom used. While I'm sure there were plenty of yards where Clerks did mark the cars that would be a local thing. It was much more common to have a Clerk with little car cards that were applied with a staple gun. The IHB at Gibson IN used that system until the advent of ACI, then they just didn't keep track of anything. As to location on car that would usually be someplace that could be reached from the ground. There may be an exception to that in regards to freight houses. It is at least possible that they would use some car marking system to identify cars by destination. This would put the marking near the door and higher up on the car. I can not recall this system ever being used but can not rule it out. Most of my photo inventory of the steam era is of new cars so there would not be any hints to be found there. "The Postwar Freight Car Fleet" by Larry Kline and Ted Culotta has tons of examples. A couple pages at random, 72 and 73. All four of these cars are marked in the normal spot on the lower left hand corner that can be reached from the ground. Two of the cars have markings next to the doors that could only be done from a loading dock. Note that all four of these cars have stapled car tags on the wood area provided on the door. These again could be reached from the ground. Russ
----- Original Message -----
From: armprem1 To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, 22 February, 2007 09:39 Subject: [STMFC] Chalk marks As far as I know there has been little or no discussion about chalk marks on car sides.What is their purpose?What information do they convey?Were there common practices as to location on the car.This is an area that is rarely modeled by many modelers,but IMHO is as vital as weathering.What are your thoughts?Armand Premo
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Re: Chalk marks
pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
Armand,
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From what I've been able to gather from the photos that I've seen, the chalkmarks are made by the local crews or l.c.l. dock people to help tell them the destinations of the cars in question. A simple set of marks understood by all saves one from having to constantly check the paperwork. Useful when it's raining as well. Pierre Oliver
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "armprem1" <armprem@...> wrote:
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Re: Speedwitch & Sunshine
Eric Hansmann
--- Tom Olsen wrote:
to some decals owed from the meet at Naperville. He said that he has been buried with Speedwitch work and, of course, the really inclement weather here. West Springfield and Timonium and was going to mail out my stuff over the weekend. ============================== I did not see Speedwitch at the February 3rd Timonium show. Where was the booth located? Eric Hansmann Morgantown, W. Va.
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Chalk marks
armprem
As far as I know there has been little or no discussion about chalk
marks on car sides.What is their purpose?What information do they convey?Were there common practices as to location on the car.This is an area that is rarely modeled by many modelers,but IMHO is as vital as weathering.What are your thoughts?Armand Premo
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New file uploaded to STMFC
STMFC@...
Hello,
This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC group. File : /Copy of matherside1.jpg Uploaded by : losgatos48 <losgatos48@comcast.net> Description : Recent shot of a C&IM Mather boxcar stored in a barn shows a yellow color clearly. You can access this file at the URL: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Copy%20of%20matherside1.jpg To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit: http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, losgatos48 <losgatos48@comcast.net>
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Barber trucks again
leedennegar
Thanks to everybody who replied to my question about 1913 Erie Barber
trucks, but even from the detailed descriptions, I'm still unsure what I should use on my 1925-era HO models of 40-ton boxcars. Can anyone post (or send off-list) a picture or recommend a particular product? --Lee Dennegar Piscataway NJ CNJ on one side, LV and RDG on the other.
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Re: P2K Mathers cars accuracy -- C&IM
John Hile <john66h@...>
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote: However, themI've seen several color images of the C&IM box cars and in all of One of the images I've seen showed a recently repainted car, and it wasthe sides appear to be yellow, not orange. I think the color on theCould the cars have been orange originally and faded toward I have one of the recent C&IM P2K Mathers still in the box. Based on recent discussions and a quick search, it sounds like the following changes are needed for this car... 1) Replace trucks with AAR (photos show w/spring planks) 2) Roof and ends repaint in mineral brown. 3) New end lettering. End lettering on the model is yellow. Is this correct for mineral red ends? John Hile Blacksburg, VA
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SAL B-6 Photos - FREE Download From My Site
John Degnan <Scaler164@...>
Folks,
The Historic Society in Savannah, GA rescued a derelict SAL B-7 boxcar a while back from its resting (rotting?) place in the SAL's old, original Savannah Yard at Magazine Ave, and I've managed to get some great photos from all over and under this car. For anyone who may be interested, I'm making ALL of these photos available for FREE on my web site. Use the two, following URLs to download the B-6 photos. There is about 50 of them. They are packaged in a ZIP file, so you will need to use WinZip (www.winzip.com) to unpack them. any problems, let me know. www.trainweb.org/seaboard/SAL/B-6/SAL_B-6_Photos_(1of2).zip www.trainweb.org/seaboard/SAL/B-6/SAL_B-6_Photos_(2of2).zip Also... I'm still hunting that MOW (derelict?) B-7 that is SOMEWHERE? down in south Florida, so if anyone knows where it may be, PLEASE contact me so I can take a road trip to photograph it! The B-7 in question can be seen at the URLs below : http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/SAL19103a(Small).jpg http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/SAL19103(Small).jpg Thanks. John Degnan Scaler164@comcast.net The Seaboard Air Line Information Collective and Photo Archive www.trainweb.org/seaboard or www.trainweb.org/seabonard/index.htm
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