Date   

Re: Chalk marks

John F. Cizmar
 

I remember my Grandfather talking about the initials his buddies would write on the cars as a sort of hello, WWII era. They may have signed off on inspections, journals etc., as well.
John Cizmar

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@mchsi.com> wrote:
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "A. Premo" <armprem@...> wrote:

Let us complicate matters even more.Chalk marks were rarely
erased and
often were placed on a car by a connecting or other foreign road ;which
leads me to ask,was there a common system or language ?It seems to
me that
this might cause some confusion for switch crews.Armand premo
Chalking track numbers did lead to confusion; that's the reason for
the printed routing cards.

The impression I get from talking to old timers is that these were
many times unique personal marks that had no meaning to anyone else.
Scrawl your initials or a doodle in a consistent way, and you have a
personal mark that you'll recognize when you see it, that isn't likely
to be confused with anything else on the car.

These were used like bookmarks, or folded page corners in a book. When
a crew reported for duty, they'd look over the consist, then walk
their train. On this particular day, the first 21 cars get set out to
the J interchange, and an additional thirty go to the B&OCT, with
everything else going through. As the head brakeman walked the train,
he'd go back 21 cars and make his mark by the cut lever; thirty more
and make his mark again. Later, out on the road, standing by the J
switch in the rain and howling wind, he didn't have to look at a list
to see what cars went to the J, he'd just let them go by until he saw
the mark he made earlier, stop them, and make the cut. Same with his
second cut later in the run.

That's the reason these marks seldom make any sense; they only had to
make sense to the man who had just made them hours before. The only
information the mark really had to convey was, "I was here before,
this is the place I make the cut".

Dennis






---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.


Re: Chalk marks

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 22, 10:04am, Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Chalk marks
Also, don't forget destination cards, which were stapled onto the
destination card boards (or, on wood sheathed cars, just about anywhere
the car clerks chose to put them, though usually on the doors). These
were small white cardboard tags
Boy, I really hate to open this can of worms, but here goes.

What color do the destination cards appear to be in photos? I know, you
said they are white. We also know the chalk marks are white, but (IMO)
look better on models if light gray is used.

Were the destination cards out in the weather for an appreciable length of
time (such that the paper might yellow slightly)? Or were new ones
applied so often that the cards stayed "fresh"? I guess my real question
is whether we should use bright white bits of decal, or "off-white" bits
of decal to represent these cards.

Thanks,

-Jeff

--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Speedwitch & Sunshine

Charlie Vlk
 

Wasn't WGH in Atlanta on the same weekend?: I hear they had record-breaking crowds there in spite of
it being Super Bowl weekend. Maybe vendors had to decide which show to go to.
Charlie Vlk


There weren't as many vendors at Timonium this time compared with last
year. I wonder if it was because it was Super Bowl weekend?


.


Re: Chalk marks

Greg Martin
 

In a message dated 2/22/2007 5:18:26 PM Pacific Standard Time,
rfederle@cox.net writes:




Are you sure that wasn't Herbie under the palm tree? Bozo Texino had a large
brimmed hat and cigarette I do believe.







Which is beyond the scope of this list I do believe...

Greg Martin
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.


Re: Chalk marks

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 22, 2007, at 10:18 AM, A. Premo wrote:

Let us complicate matters even more.Chalk marks were rarely erased and
often were placed on a car by a connecting or other foreign road ;which
leads me to ask,was there a common system or language ?It seems to me that
this might cause some confusion for switch crews.
Armand, you're right that chalk marks were seldom erased (and in some cases lasted for weeks or months before they were erased/obscured by weather and dirt). However, prototype photos often show chalk marks that were crossed out; apparently that was the practice whenever a chalk mark was regarded as potentially confusing.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Chalk marks

Tim O'Connor
 

Paul

I just meant they do not use chalk or graphite. Yes there must be a binder
to hold the pigment together. I have used artist pencils to add color to running
boards, highlight tank car bands and door tracks, highlight rivets, etc -- very
easy to do, very quick, and effective. I bought them at a local 'paper store'.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Paul & Bernice Hillman" <chris_hillman@msn.com>

Thank you, Tim and Ben. I will probably try the pencil route before
trying to get the dried black ink out of my finest Rapidograph pens!
Tim, what do you mean by "pigment-based"? If I remember right, colored
pencils have a binder that is oily or waxy (they are, literally, closer
kin to crayons than to graphite pencils) and does make them stick.


Re: Chalk marks

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "A. Premo" <armprem@...> wrote:

Let us complicate matters even more.Chalk marks were rarely
erased and
often were placed on a car by a connecting or other foreign road ;which
leads me to ask,was there a common system or language ?It seems to
me that
this might cause some confusion for switch crews.Armand premo

Chalking track numbers did lead to confusion; that's the reason for
the printed routing cards.

The impression I get from talking to old timers is that these were
many times unique personal marks that had no meaning to anyone else.
Scrawl your initials or a doodle in a consistent way, and you have a
personal mark that you'll recognize when you see it, that isn't likely
to be confused with anything else on the car.

These were used like bookmarks, or folded page corners in a book. When
a crew reported for duty, they'd look over the consist, then walk
their train. On this particular day, the first 21 cars get set out to
the J interchange, and an additional thirty go to the B&OCT, with
everything else going through. As the head brakeman walked the train,
he'd go back 21 cars and make his mark by the cut lever; thirty more
and make his mark again. Later, out on the road, standing by the J
switch in the rain and howling wind, he didn't have to look at a list
to see what cars went to the J, he'd just let them go by until he saw
the mark he made earlier, stop them, and make the cut. Same with his
second cut later in the run.

That's the reason these marks seldom make any sense; they only had to
make sense to the man who had just made them hours before. The only
information the mark really had to convey was, "I was here before,
this is the place I make the cut".

Dennis


Kahn's Car Update... Cocoa Beach 2007 project

Greg Martin
 

Hey Yuze Gize,

Just a couple of updated regarding the Kahn's Car Project from Cocoa Beach
2007.

1) The cars with 6-inch sills were car that were 12'-2" tall to the exterior
eves. The cars with the 8-inch sill were cars that were 12'-7" tall to the
exterior eves and were built in 1929. So for those who want to use the kit
instructions to represent the FGEX or WFEX cars that ACCURAIL offers pre-painted
just follow the directions in the kit as if you were building the Kahn's car.

2) In my instructions I recommend that you touch up the paint on the Kahn's
car with Reefer Yellow and that would be wrong as it is to Yellow as Bill
Welch points out. I found a great nearly exact match by mixing 50% Reefer Yellow
with 50% SP Daylight Orange. The match even caught me by surprise.

3) Remember the brake equipment placement in the article is correct for this
car and it differs significantly from the data in the Sunshine kit.

My car is done except for the weathering. I will try to post photos of the
car this weekend and I also have photos of all the KCS cars added to the photo
folder as well.

Bill McCoy email me off list I have more data for you and I have lost your
email address...

More to follow regarding this years project car...

Greg Martin
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.


RTR Branchline Milwaukee ACF Wood Reefer

Andy Carlson
 

I have 3 of the BL HO Milwaukee reefers, factory assembled with a 1940 repaint date. 3 different numbers, URTX 87292; 87287; and 85348. List for $27.95, I am offering these at $19.00 each. plus postage. If interested in these. please contact me at < midcentury@sbcglobal.net > off-list, please. Thanks,
-Andy Carlson
Ojai CA


Re: Chalk marks

Paul Hillman
 

I used to use white, type-writer correction tape. It may come in other
colors. Lay it on the car and write anything you want with a sharp
enough pencil or other object.

I haven't done this for a long time, but I have cars from several years
ago that still have my markings I made. Don't remember if I dull-coated
it afterwards.

I don't know if it's still made with all the modern printer systems
that there are now. I suppose it still is. I'll check with Office
Depot, etc.

Paul Hillman


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Barry Roth <barry_roth@...> wrote:

Thank you, Tim and Ben. I will probably try the pencil route before
trying to get the dried black ink out of my finest Rapidograph pens!
Tim, what do you mean by "pigment-based"? If I remember right, colored
pencils have a binder that is oily or waxy (they are, literally, closer
kin to crayons than to graphite pencils) and does make them stick.


Re: New file uploaded to STMFC

Eugene E. Deimling <losgatos48@...>
 

I posted a photo showing part of the only known remains of a C&IM
Mather car. The picture was taken in a barn but it clearly shows
the unique Mather design features and the color. The end of this
car was a "freight car red" color.
I also have a frame from a movie showing the same class of car with
orange-like sides with a yellow repaint spot.

Gene Deimling



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, STMFC@yahoogroups.com wrote:


Hello,

This email message is a notification to let you know that
a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the STMFC
group.

File : /Copy of matherside1.jpg
Uploaded by : losgatos48 <losgatos48@...>
Description : Recent shot of a C&IM Mather boxcar stored in a
barn shows a yellow color clearly.

You can access this file at the URL:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/STMFC/files/Copy%20of%
20matherside1.jpg

To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit:
http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files

Regards,

losgatos48 <losgatos48@...>


Re: Chalk marks

ljack70117@...
 

There was no confusion if you did not use them as we did not in the Santa Fe yard in Emporia.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Feb 22, 2007, at 1:18 PM, A. Premo wrote:

Let us complicate matters even more.Chalk marks were rarely erased and
often were placed on a car by a connecting or other foreign road ;which
leads me to ask,was there a common system or language ?It seems to me that
this might cause some confusion for switch crews.Armand premo
----- Original Message -----
From: "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@sympatico.ca>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 11:13 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Chalk marks


Armand,
From what I've been able to gather from the photos that I've seen, the
chalkmarks are made by the local crews or l.c.l. dock people to help
tell them the destinations of the cars in question. A simple set of
marks understood by all saves one from having to constantly check the
paperwork. Useful when it's raining as well.

Pierre Oliver


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "armprem1" <armprem@...> wrote:

As far as I know there has been little or no discussion about chalk
marks on car sides.What is their purpose?What information do they
convey?Were there common practices as to location on the car.This is an
area that is rarely modeled by many modelers,but IMHO is as vital as
weathering.What are your thoughts?Armand Premo




Yahoo! Groups - Join or create groups, clubs, forums &amp; communities.
Links






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Re: Chalk marks

Barry Roth
 

Thank you, Tim and Ben. I will probably try the pencil route before trying to get the dried black ink out of my finest Rapidograph pens! Tim, what do you mean by "pigment-based"? If I remember right, colored pencils have a binder that is oily or waxy (they are, literally, closer kin to crayons than to graphite pencils) and does make them stick.

Barry Roth

timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

I use ordinary artist's pencils for chalk marks. You can get white, or I
prefer "French Grey" which looks like faded chalk. Just sharpen them.
The pencils are pigment-based so they will stick and not smear. The
Sunshine decals are good if you need to know what the chalk marks
look like.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Barry Roth asked:
"And also, what is a source for decals/dry transfers of them? (I
presume dry transfers are preferable because they can be applied over
weathering.)"

In HO scale, Sunshine decals (see page 29 of the Sunshine kit list in
the group files section for the individual sets) and Clover House dry
transfers. Also, Ted Culotta suggested using a Koh-i-noor Rapidograph
pen with some very, very fine points and some white ink for chalk
marks that are more subtle in addition to those available in the decal
and dry transfer sets. See Charlie Duckworth's article in the November
1994 issue of Mainline Modeler for more details.


Ben Hom




---------------------------------
Have a burning question? Go to Yahoo! Answers and get answers from real people who know.


Re: Chalk marks

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson notes:

"Also, don't forget destination cards, which were stapled onto the
destination card boards (or, on wood sheathed cars, just about anywhere
the car clerks chose to put them, though usually on the doors). These
were small white cardboard tags with destinations either printed or
written on them."

There is a video produced by Mark I Video named Omaha: Rail Metropolis. This video shows a clerk compiling such cards and then yard crews tacking them to various cars. The UP frt conductor's book I have includes the numbers...0-6 [ as I recall ] in the destination column.

Mike Brock


Re: Chalk marks

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

The CB&Q supplied both white and yellow chalk. Probably whatever was cheaper
when the storehouse had to re-stock. The sticks were round, about an inch in
diameter, and must have been either 4" or 5" long.

What to put on a car? Unless you have a detail photo of one car you are
trying
to model just about anything will work. While they would only make sense to
the
yard where the cars were marked there were some common Railroad language
terms.

Some common suggestions: Rip, Weigh, Scale, Pit, Dock, Hole, Team, East,
West,
North, South, the initials of other Railroads, any kind of number.

There were some fairly standard abbreviations for Railroads. At least in the
Chicago area:

CB&Q = Q
CMStP&P = St Paul
IHB = IHBelt semi-officially, also Harbor
NYC = C
PRR = Pa
AT&SF = SF or SFE
EJ&E = J

When checking cars or making up lists it was common to drop the "X" from the
end of frequently seen car initials. As in:

FGEX = FGE
BREX = BRE
WFEX = WFE
CRLX = CRL

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: timboconnor@comcast.net
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 22 February, 2007 10:58
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Chalk marks



I use ordinary artist's pencils for chalk marks. You can get white, or I
prefer "French Grey" which looks like faded chalk. Just sharpen them.
The pencils are pigment-based so they will stick and not smear. The
Sunshine decals are good if you need to know what the chalk marks
look like.


Re: Chalk marks

armprem
 

Let us complicate matters even more.Chalk marks were rarely erased and often were placed on a car by a connecting or other foreign road ;which leads me to ask,was there a common system or language ?It seems to me that this might cause some confusion for switch crews.Armand premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "pierreoliver2003" <pierre.oliver@sympatico.ca>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 11:13 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Chalk marks


> Armand,
> From what I've been able to gather from the photos that I've seen, the
> chalkmarks are made by the local crews or l.c.l. dock people to help
> tell them the destinations of the cars in question. A simple set of
> marks understood by all saves one from having to constantly check the
> paperwork. Useful when it's raining as well.
>
> Pierre Oliver
>
>
> --- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "armprem1" <armprem@...> wrote:
>>
>> As far as I know there has been little or no discussion about chalk
>> marks on car sides.What is their purpose?What information do they
>> convey?Were there common practices as to location on the car.This is an
>> area that is rarely modeled by many modelers,but IMHO is as vital as
>> weathering.What are your thoughts?Armand Premo
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups - Join or create groups, clubs, forums &amp; communities. Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.441 / Virus Database: 268.18.2/692 - Release Date: 2/18/2007 4:35 PM
>
>


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Re: Chalk marks

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Feb 22, 2007, at 8:21 AM, Barry Roth wrote:

And also, what is a source for decals/dry transfers of them? (I presume dry transfers are preferable because they can be applied over weathering.)
For many years I've applied chalk markings on freight car models in what I believe is the quickest, easiest, and most realistic fashion by using a very sharp white Prismacolor artist's pencil, readily available at any art supply store. Look at photos of steam era freight cars to see what kind of markings were put on them and then just copy them. I supplied the data for the Clover House transfers, which are all based on photos. However, the problem I have with dry transfers, decals, and pens is that the chalk marks are too opaque and sharp-edged; the real ones were softer and a bit fuzzy, which is exactly the effect produced by a white pencil.

Also, don't forget destination cards, which were stapled onto the destination card boards (or, on wood sheathed cars, just about anywhere the car clerks chose to put them, though usually on the doors). These were small white cardboard tags with destinations either printed or written on them. The printing doesn't have to be there in HO scale; in photos, it's hardly ever visible. But the cards were on every car in a train, showing where it was going (even on empties). Old cards were often on cars in yards, as well, and sometimes on cars enroute though they were supposed to be removed when a new card was attached. These cards are easily modeled with small square bits of white decal.

Cars ready for loading often had cleaning cards indicating that they had been cleaned and what kind of cargo they were suitable for. Microscale decal set 87-975 includes a variety of these cleaning cards, as well as a full range of steam era warning placards for dangerous loads and various special instruction placards (DO NOT HUMP, UNLOAD THIS SIDE, FRAGILE, etc.) Most cars didn't have warning or special instruction placards, but having them on a few of your models adds realism.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: The DS/SS split - More results

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On Feb 21, 10:49pm, laramielarry wrote:

Road, AAR, Kind, Series, IL, Door, Capy, Qty
UP OSL, XM, Box, 68088-68149, 40'6", 6'0", 100000, 2
no info.

UP, XM, Box, 121999-121999, 40'6", 6'0", 100000, 1
no info.

UP LA&SL, XM, Box, 132000-132292, 40'0", 6'0", 100000, 1
Bettendorf underframe, wood supertructure. Double sheathed.

UP OWR&N, XM, Box, 301000-301113, 40'0", 6'0", 100000, 1
ditto.

UP LA&SL, XM, Box, 304800-304871, 40'0", 6'0", 100000, 2
ditto.



I'll have to do some digging to come up with those last 3 cars.

Regards,

-Jeff


--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Chalk marks

Tim O'Connor
 

I use ordinary artist's pencils for chalk marks. You can get white, or I
prefer "French Grey" which looks like faded chalk. Just sharpen them.
The pencils are pigment-based so they will stick and not smear. The
Sunshine decals are good if you need to know what the chalk marks
look like.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@worldnet.att.net>
Barry Roth asked:
"And also, what is a source for decals/dry transfers of them? (I
presume dry transfers are preferable because they can be applied over
weathering.)"

In HO scale, Sunshine decals (see page 29 of the Sunshine kit list in
the group files section for the individual sets) and Clover House dry
transfers. Also, Ted Culotta suggested using a Koh-i-noor Rapidograph
pen with some very, very fine points and some white ink for chalk
marks that are more subtle in addition to those available in the decal
and dry transfer sets. See Charlie Duckworth's article in the November
1994 issue of Mainline Modeler for more details.


Ben Hom


Re: Chalk marks

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Larry,

That guy would get along great with a hold track Clerk that worked for the
St Paul at Bensenville. They would send various odd cars to the IHB with
just a piece of paper that said what road the car went to. When these cars
showed up and you called him his first question was, "Who did you get the
car from?" When we replied, "From the IHB", his standard answer was "Then
it's a problem between you and the IHB and none of my business."

The St Paul had a car distributor in Chicago that was adamant that the BN
owned the cars lettered "RBNX". I doubt that many of these cars got loaded
very often since they spent weeks bouncing back and forth. IIRC someone
finally thought of a dodge and started "Home Shopping" them. I think FGE
had to provide us with a routing to Potomac Yard.

I know, out of scope. I'm sure that there were the same problems before
1960, just different versions.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: ljack70117@adelphia.net
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 22 February, 2007 10:33
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Chalk marks


Did I tell you about the night the yard clerk check an out bound
train and had one car they could not find any paper work on it. They
looked every. So someone said call Joe ( he was the clerk that just
went off duty) he will know about it. So they did and he said it was
going to Kansas City. They then ask him what was in it and he said to
put it down a lumber. They said that can not be as this was a tank
car. Joe said "Why do you care. You do not have to unload it".
Big grin.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@adelphia.net
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

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