Bob Chaparro wrote:

Most everything I've seen on this subject indicates that hatch covers were kept in the closed position . . . There is an official exception, however. The June 1954 Santa Fe Circular No. 11, uncover by Keith Jordan, has an interesting bit of information that provides the exception to the rule for the position of hatch covers on produce reefers in citrus service.

So if you're modeling the Santa Fe main line in June 1954 . . .

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Most everything I've seen on this subject indicates that hatch covers
were kept in the closed position unless ventilation was required for
the load. Certainly there were directives on the Santa Fe to keep
the hatch covers closed when the cars were in storage or used for
braking on Cajon Pass so the interiors would stay clean.

There is an official exception, however. The June 1954 Santa Fe
Circular No. 11, uncover by Keith Jordan, has an interesting bit of
information that provides the exception to the rule for the position
of hatch covers on produce reefers in citrus service.

The circular says:

"(a)SFRD cars moving west empty should have hatch covers raised to
permit old ice to melt."

The complete circular is posted in the Files Section of the Citrus
Industry Modeling Group.

Bob Chaparro
Moderator
Citrus Industry Modeling Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/citrusmodeling/

Don,

Thanks for bringing up the point about the steps. I hadn't noticed
that yet and it is a very important detail factor.

I went and looked at my C&O and C&EI photos and saw that difference.

I know that the MoPac had control/influence over the C&EI off & on,
or something, and took-over/absorbed the C&EI in the 1970's, or
something to that affect. I'd have to re-research. But, did the MoPac
involvement with the C&EI produce exact or similar versions of this
caboose as a result? If so, MoPac photos/data would also contribute
to this C&EI car's detail research.

Thanks, Paul Hillman

********************************************************************
Don Smith wrote:

Hi Paul, I've thought of making the MoPac version of the car. I'd

suggest you add to your list of repairable items revising the side
steps from the cast iron "tender type" steps which are correct for
the C&O version to the wooden "conventional caboose type" steps of
the C&EI and MoPac versions of the prototype. It would seem a shame
to do all of the items you list and not change what to me is the most
obvious difference.

Regards, Don Smith

Green Bay & Western 14000 or 15000 series double door outside braced boxcars... I have several shots of these cars after their 1958 rebuilding program put single 8' doors on these cars, but I have never seen a side-angle of the cars with their 11' double doors.

Andy Laurent


---------------------------------
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.

Russ Strodtz wrote:

Think that an attempt is being made to assign a pattern to what was actually a random event. This is similar to the "open box car door" issue . . . From a time and labor point of view there is no way
anyone could get involved with ice hatches or car doors.

Sure, and I've never quarreled with the assertion that SOME cars must have had their open hatches (for vent service when loaded) left open. But I do assert that this was neither routine nor desired nor common. And I still shake my head at the railfan who sees a photo of a whole train of reefers with hatches up and says, "Yeah, empties."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Give me a date and builder & I'll see if we have a B&O Durea
underframe drawing for that car in the Pullman Library - usually $25
for a copy of the builder's linen drawing for personal use only.
Builders currently available are Standard Steel and Pullman.
Ted Anderson, IRM Pullman Library

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "rwitt_2000" <rmwitt@...> wrote:

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "jc2fl" <jc02fl@> wrote:

I have placed some photos illustrating the Duryea underframe in a
Yahoo photo album at

"new.photos.yahoo.com/b_and_o_boxcars/albums" (minus the quotes).

These photos are of M-53 boxcar 381538 located at the Florida

Railroad

Museum, Parrish (Willow) FL. (www.frrm.org), just south of Tampa.

The album also has pictures of M-15NA #374834 and M-15PD #376330

which

are also located at the Florida Railroad Museum. These two cars

do

not have the Duryea underframes.

John C.
Clearwater FL

Thank you posting these. Currently, I am not that near any wagon-

top

boxcars to photograph their underframes. I specially appreciate

those

photos of the M-53. The B&O Museum has a M-53A in its collection.

The

Duryea underframe applied to the M-53A is structurally different

than

the one use on the original class M-53.

Regards,

Bob Witt, Indianapolis, Indiana

Tony,

Think that an attempt is being made to assign a
pattern to what was actually a random event. This is
similar to the "open box car door" issue.

If one of the Western roads gets a 100 car delivery
from an Eastern road at a yard in the Chicago area
before it is humped or switched it would be inspected
and bled. Probably two guys assigned this task or
possibly two pairs working from the ends. The yard I
worked at had only one carman. This inspection would
be concentrated on running gear and safety appliances.

From a time and labor point of view there is no way
anyone could get involved with ice hatches or car
doors.

This is just like today's locomotive fueling issue.
Trains rather commonly run out of fuel. Locomotives
are purchased with very large fuel tanks but those
tanks are seldom fueled to capacity. This is a time
and cost issue where decisions are made at the local
level. I have even seen written instructions holding
Engineers responsible for the amount of fuel dispensed
by vendors. I thought it rather silly that an Engineer
had to supervise an outside vendor performing a rather
straight forward task but the instructions were meant
to be taken seriously.

That's just the way it is,

Russ Strodtz

TimO'Connor wrote:

the dampness issue makes me wonder -- how could they use reefers for shipping magazines or books? did they use heaters to try to keep the air dry at least?

Good point, Tim--but I'm not aware of heater use for this purpose. Remember, the interiors were heavily varnished, including the floor racks and the bunker walls. After about 1925, nearly all cars had galvanized steel liners and pans in ice bunkers, so the wood was not in contact with the ice. The interiors could certainly be somewhat damp, but hardly seriously wet (it would have compromised the insulation if that wet, prior to the introduction of fiberglass at the end of the 1930s). Shipping magazines from, say, Philadelphia in July would have provided plenty of ambient damp air <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Several actual consists of express trains of grapes are listed at
http://atsfrr.net/resources/Internet/Consists/ExpSpec.htm


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@swcentral.org
Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417
Personal: http://www.geocities.com/stevesandifer2000/index
Church: http://www.swcentral.org

Hello Group,

I live in Westlake,OH and at one time it was the
world's largest shipper of Concord grapes.[or so they
claim].They were shipped in refrigerator cars on the
NKP to the Welch's plant in North East, PA. I knew a
man who loaded them, so it would be before WWII. Now
most of the vineyards are gone,replaced with housing
for people who want to be in the country.
John F. Riba
--- Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
wrote:

Peter J. McClosky wrote:

A promoters view:

http://www.sacramentohistory.org/admin/photo/984_1976.jpg

These amusing postcards were common early in
the 20th century.
Note in this particular one that the car shown is
one SP never owned
(nor is the car number a gondola number on SP),
ditto for the trucks,
of which SP owned none. As for the size of the
grapes depicted, well,
California really IS a very productive agricultural
state . . .

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press,
Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Bob-
Walthers makes a 4- window version riding on UP wood beam trucks.
Athearn, with having tooling in both N and HO (the N Car is based on a D&RGW prototype instead of the CM)
could pick another version and do the trucks for Q (the UP and C&NW liked the design and had their own versions
which they called the "Q" Truck). There are side door, 3- window and visually different versions available in the
basic 30' carbody.
The ATSF wood caboose and other roads' are very similar... at one time St. Charles Car Company built what is the
wood equivalent of the Morrision-International wide vision car of the 60's.... a basic design car with a few variations
(trucks, window placement, details of cupola, etc.) on the same body.
The nice thing about the CB&Q prototype is that they started building them in the 1870s and some (at least from an
accounting standpoint...one never knows if any stick of wood from the original remained) made it through the BN era
almost right to the end of the use of cabooses. Most other roads had long ago replaced their wooden hacks with
something a little more modern... in the 1930s!!! So they are appropriate to trail anything from a 4-4-0 to a SD40-2.
Not bad for a car with wood and iron trucks!!!
Charlie Vlk


I thought Walthers already made a CB&Q caboose with wood beam trucks.
Bob Witt


.

Frank has moved and has aging issues which makes further printing impossible. I have what is left of his picked over slide collection and have been scanning them for the Santa Fe Society. He tells stories of folks who "borrowed" slides for projects and never returned them. I don't know who has his negatives.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@swcentral.org
Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417
Personal: http://www.geocities.com/stevesandifer2000/index
Church: http://www.swcentral.org

not to mention that reefers with open hatches could be subjected to
prolonged rainstorms...

the dampness issue makes me wonder -- how could they use reefers
for shipping magazines or books? did they use heaters to try to keep the
air dry at least?

Charlie Vlk wrote:

The cars wood cars are based on the Colorado Midland Side Door

Caboose (albeit with lowered windows so the roadname could be

printed over them!!!!)

Athearn could, with the excecution of new inserts, make something

accurate out of this tooling as the CB&Q, ATSF, CM, MP, NYC and a host
of other railroads had 30' (over the corner posts) wood caboose cars
with radial or peaked roofs. A nice wood beam truck would not only
make a dead-on Q car possible but they could be used on the Sierra
Coach and Combine which have had to make do with archbar trucks
instead of 5' wheelbase passenger trucks.

If anybody from Athearn is listening I have CB&Q drawings on disc

sufficient to build the prototype cars....all wood, wrought, and cast
parts as well as general arrangement drawings.....

I thought Walthers already made a CB&Q caboose with wood beam trucks.

http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/932-7562

Bob Witt

Ray Price wrote:

I am trying to find out some information on a fellow who used to sell freight car photos. His name was Frank M. Ellington and he used to be located in Panora, Iowa. I purchased some photos from him about 10 years ago. As I recall,his photos were from the American Car & Foundry's St. Charles, MO factory. Does anyone know if he still offers his photos, or if someone else may have taken over his files. Any info appreciated.

Ray, Frank has not sold photos for some years. He has age issues (I don't know whether it is Alzheimer's or not) and cannot do printing or shipping any more. Whether anyone else is making Frank's fine collection accessible, I don't know. Hopefully someone on the list will know more.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Peter J. McClosky wrote:

A promoters view:

http://www.sacramentohistory.org/admin/photo/984_1976.jpg

These amusing postcards were common early in the 20th century. Note in this particular one that the car shown is one SP never owned (nor is the car number a gondola number on SP), ditto for the trucks, of which SP owned none. As for the size of the grapes depicted, well, California really IS a very productive agricultural state . . .

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Hello,
I am trying to find out some information on a fellow who used to sell
freight car photos. His name was Frank M. Ellington and he used to be
located in Panora, Iowa. I purchased some photos from him about 10
years ago. As I recall,his photos were from the American Car &
Foundry's St. Charles, MO factory. Does anyone know if he still offers
his photos, or if someone else may have taken over his files. Any info
appreciated.
Thanks,
Ray Price

Bob Chaparro wrote:

I found the image below on Calisphere
(http://www.calisphere.universityofcalifornia.edu/), a service of the
University of California Libraries. The caption reads: "Grapes are
loaded onto gondola railway cars at the Turlock, California, depot."
This was taken around 1905.

Does anyone know how common this practice was before trucks and good
roads were common in these rural farm areas?

The whole URL, to save searching on the site, is:
http://content.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/kt7779q91m/? query=Turlock%20grapes&brand=calisphere

If this folds onto two lines, remember to copy and past the two parts together in your browser.

This was often done on the way to the winery or juice plant. There are other photos in the Central Valley and even in Napa of such loading. There are some in the CCT book we published, and also in my SP Freight Cars, Vol. 3, p. 199. But they are usually pre-WW II or even before WW I, in my recollection, so I would say this is definitely an early practice.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

I would have thought that empty reefers would have hatches opened to
dry out the ice bunkers to avoid mildew, rot, etc. Am I wrong?

Yep.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history

Jerry Michels wrote:

Over on the reefer madness list there is a discussion on the normal position of reefer hatches. I was under the impression that reefer ice hatches were normally closed whether the car was loaded or empty unless it was specifically carrying a load that needed ventilation only, when the hatches were opened. I thought I read this on this list, but might be mistaken. Can anyone confirm the typical or normal practice?

Yes, it was normal practice to close them. Both PFE and SFRD instructed yard crews and ice deck crews to close them. It is a railfan/modeler myth that "open hatches mean empty cars."
The idea that cars would "be dried out by running them with open hatches" is something I raised with the retired head of PFE's Car Department. He answered, "What for?" The cars were irreversibly damp inside, and any shipper who might use them knew that. You might dry them by storing them with open doors and hatches at Tucson for a summer month; otherwise . . .

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history