Date   

Re: Backdating Mather Proto PH&D

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Apr 18, 2007, at 3:16 PM, red_gate_rover wrote:

Thanks for the reply. This information at least allows plausibility
to simply replacing the brakes and data, at least until such time as
pictures surface. For my purposes that's good enough. However there
is a suggestions on the RPI site that these cars were painted with a
tan paint and not red. Anyone know more? -Jim Pasquill
Hard to say in the absence of photos from the era you model. However,
later photos of the cars all show them to be mineral red. And the RPI
site, though sometimes useful, is far from being a paragon of accuracy.

Richard Hendrickson


Branchline ATSF BX-69 cars

up4024 <thekays100@...>
 

Branchline is showing a set of four Santa Fe BX69 boxcars. These are
50', riveted, single 8' door cars. The catalog number is 10014. The
photo on the web is of a El Capitan car, but no mention is made of the
other three cars in the set. Are they all El Capitan, or do they have
other train names and (I assume) different numbers.

If anyone has this set of cars, I would appreciate it if you could let
me know which slogans and numbers are on them.

Thanks,

Steve Kay


Re: Sheetrock by Rail

George Courtney
 

A search on Wikipedia revealed sheetrock from Plaster City,CA in
1916. Got popular around 1952 with building in the suburbs. From the
postings this seems to be the period some railroads began converting
the flatcars.
George Courtney


Re: Sheetrock by Rail

Jeff English
 

Having been at Rome's house last night, I can vouch for his vintage
sheet rock. My own house, built in 1877, was partially remodeled circa
1926-29 and in those areas the sheet rock has paper labels on the back
that hint at having been printed in 1924.

Jeff English
Troy, New York
(where some residents are still not proud enough to come right out and
say they're from Troy, resorting to the vague phrase "in the Albany, NY
area")

--- In STMFC@..., "Rome" <r111369@...> wrote:

Don Worthy <don_worthy@> wrote:

Hey fellows, I didn't think that "sheetrock" was around in the 40s
or even the early 50s...

My house is in the Albany, NY area, was built in 1941, as well as the
rest of the houses in our neighborhood, and they all have sheetrock
walls. My grandfather's house in Vermont was built in 1955, he was a
finish carpenter and used sheetrock on all the walls. However, my
parents house, also in Vermont, was built in 1903, and used the
plaster and lath technique.

Rome Romano


Re: Backdating Mather Proto PH&D

red_gate_rover
 

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

More to the point, the years during which various RRs leased cars from
Mather varied, and most of Mather's leased box cars weren't built (or
rebuilt from stock cars) until ca. 1931-'32. The PH&D did, however,
lease 400 40'4" IL box cars from Mather beginning in the late 1920s.
That's the good news. The bad news is that I'm not aware of any photos
showing the PH&D's Mather box cars ca. 1929, so there's no way to know
whether the lettering was the same as the '40s/'50s vintage lettering
applied to the models.
Thanks for the reply. This information at least allows plausibility
to simply replacing the brakes and data, at least until such time as
pictures surface. For my purposes that's good enough. However there
is a suggestions on the RPI site that these cars were painted with a
tan paint and not red. Anyone know more? -Jim Pasquill


Re: "Longitudinal" hopper

David Smith
 

I DID say that if it was out of era, that was all I needed to know. <grin>

Dave Smith

On 4/18/07, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

> # Ga-168 Hopper Cars Series 76700-76999 built 1969 longitudinal
hoppers
# Ga-170 Hopper Cars Series 64025-64038 built 1969 copper concentrate
service
Might these be just a TAD out of era for this list, Tim?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...<thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


--
David L. Smith
Allentown, PA
dlsio4@...


Re: "Longitudinal" hopper

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

# Ga-168 Hopper Cars Series 76700-76999 built 1969 longitudinal hoppers
# Ga-170 Hopper Cars Series 64025-64038 built 1969 copper concentrate service
Might these be just a TAD out of era for this list, Tim?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: "Longitudinal" hopper

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

The purpose built 1963 B-L-H cars are odd enough in themselves. I don't know what their center of gravity was but it must have been rather high.
It is certainly odd looking. It was evidently a B-L-H idea; I showed the demonstrator car in my volume on SP gondolas. The cars SP bought differ only slightly from the demo. I think part of the reason for the high underbody was because there were half-width longitudinal doors.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Sheetrock by Rail

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
I guess I should look in the flat cars book -- were any of these F-70-7 conversions?
Yes, I think you should, and yes.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: "Longitudinal" hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Richard, that is what I was trying to figure out -- if they were built
before 1961 or not. I agree since I think that they are, I haven't said
anything more about them.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
Uh, guys, not to be a grouch about it, but all these e-mails about cars
built in the 1960s are way out of era for this list.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: "Longitudinal" hopper

Richard Hendrickson
 

Uh, guys, not to be a grouch about it, but all these e-mails about cars
built in the 1960s are way out of era for this list.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Sheetrock by Rail

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Douglas Harding" <doug.harding@...>
wrote:

I just toured the US Gypsum plant in Fort Dodge, Iowa with the CNW
Historical Society in March. We learned that Sheetrock is a
trademark name,
like Kleenex or Frigidaire. That US Gypsum has been making it since
1916 and
further that US Gypsum began mining the gypsum rock in the Fort
Dodge area
in the 1880/90's. All product was shipped by rail. Someone
mentioned the
developments along the CGW, CNW and IC in the Chicago area. All
three of
those railroads serve Fort Dodge, home of some of the largest gypsum
deposits in the country. Prior to the meat industry, gypsum made
Fort Dodge
and industrial center. It was also the birthplace of the "Cardiff
giant"
(Google that if do don't know the story). Today US Gypsum, National
Gypsum
and one or two others are still active in Fort Dodge making
wallboard and
related products.

Early products were shipped in boxcars. Later flats were converted
with low
bulkheads for shipping Sheetrock. Also gyp rock was shipped out in
gons, as
gyp rock was used in several other industry applications. Fort
Dodge had
some of the purest deposits to be found. The early rock was mined
underground using small mining railroads. Today it is all stripped
mined and
hauled in truck. But the plants still have rail service if needed.
The IC built two series of bulkhead flat cars for wallboard loading
late in the time frame covered here. Cars 60100-60199 were built in
1959 and cars 60200-60299 in 1960. Both groups of cars were built by
the railroad's own shop and had 6'-6 1/2" height bulkheads. More
bulkhead flat cars were built, and some existing flatcars had bulk
heads added, after 1960.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: "Longitudinal" hopper

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Tim,

We are getting way out of scope here. Roofed coal gons, not
hoppers belonged to Big Stone Power. Those covers have been
removed. Motivation was different. The Montana Sub-Bituminous
is very fine and they were trying to prevent losing coal to
the wind going across the prairie. The arms on the roofs were
designed to work with a modified dumper. They limited the
roof's travel. Cars are still in service today without the
roofs.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: timboconnor@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, 18 April, 2007 13:59
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Longitudinal" hopper



Could these be the prototype in question?

# Ga-168 Hopper Cars Series 76700-76999 built 1969 longitudinal
hoppers
# Ga-170 Hopper Cars Series 64025-64038 built 1969 copper
concentrate service

Milwaukee also tried the wind resistance idea -- they built
hoppers designed
with a top that was mechanically closed as the train slowly
rolled. The cars had
these big 'arms' sticking up IIRC.

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Russ Strodtz" <sheridan@...>
> Tim,
>
> Yes it does but the AT&SF seemed to be full of
> these oddball ideas. If you take a three bay
> GA-122, remove the hoppers and replace with
> lengthwise doors and build up or borrow flat car
> ends, that model on e-bay is what you are going
> to end up with.
>
> Somewhere I have photos of their attempt to reduce
> the wind resistance of modern coal hoppers by
> putting bonnets over the open end areas. The test
> process even included a locomotive with a boom
> sticking out about 30' forwards to put wind
> measurement instruments.
>
> The purpose built 1963 B-L-H cars are odd enough
> in themselves. I don't know what their center of
> gravity was but it must have been rather high.
>
> Russ Strodtz
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: timboconnor@...
> To: STMFC@...
> Sent: Wednesday, 18 April, 2007 12:36
> Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Longitudinal" hopper
>
>
>
> Russ I think you are right that the prototype car was built
for
> copper concentrates. SP had some really weird looking cars
> built around the same time period for that commodity. That
> model of a hopper car on a flat car body just looks silly
IMO!
>
> Tim O'Connor



Yahoo! Groups Links


Shameless Commercial Announcement - II

branchline@...
 

Shipping to dealers today is the next batch of assembled RTR Branchline Blueprint cars. A full list available at http://www.branchline-trains.com/blueprint/rtr/rtr7.htm

Note that this group includes a number of General American plug door boxcars as featured in the newest RP Cyc. (Of course, I'm sure Ed has come up with information that I didn't have when we did these but....)

I now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion....

Bill Schneider


Re: Sheetrock by Rail

Tim Gilbert <tgilbert@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:

I'm sure that 1927 trainload shipment of "gypsum building products"
was a mix of bagged gypsum plaster and bundled rocklath, all moving in
boxcars.
Yet the 1927 article said that the wallboard and plasterboard were produced at the Newington NH plant.

Tim Gilbert


Re: Sheetrock by Rail

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:

....
Missouri Pacific was one railroad that converted a number of 53'-6"
flat cars by adding bulkheads for the transport of plasterboard. I
believe plasterboard and sheet rock are two names for the same
product.

More specifically in 1955 the I-GN converted 14 flat cars in the
8500-8599 series for plasterboard service. Five more cars in this
series were converted by MoPac circa 1960 to bring the total of
converted cars to 19. The ORER lists the individual car numbers in
notes. I've seen photos of other cars during the 1950s that were
similarly converted.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Ed - The sheetrock quarry and facility was (and is) located at
Dittlinger, texas, just south of New Braunfels, on the I-GN. A few
years ago, they were still making wallboard.

A.T. Kott


Re: "Longitudinal" hopper

david zuhn
 

Milwaukee also tried the wind resistance idea -- they built hoppers designed
with a top that was mechanically closed as the train slowly rolled. The cars had
these big 'arms' sticking up IIRC.
This wasn't so much for wind resistance as for the fact that the S.D.
coal being hauled in these cars is little more than burnable dirt, and
that a significant fraction would be lost to the wind in transit if
they weren't capped. However, I don't believe much of this coal was
hauled out during the Steam Era.

--
david d zuhn, St Paul Bridge & Terminal Ry., St. Paul, Minn.
http://stpaulterminal.org/


Re: Sheetrock by Rail

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "original_coaster" <ladanas@...> wrote:

Just to round out the "geographical roll call," whole neighborhoods
of houses in San Francisco were being constructed with
sheetrock/drywall in the late 40s. I grew up in such a house as did
most of my friends. (Homes like these in that area were the
inspiration for term "ticky-tacky.")

-- Paul
I think it's very much a regional thing. In areas like Chicago, with a
lot of commercial work and strong plasterer's and lathers unions (at
one time lathers were considered a separate trade from carpenters, and
had their own union) plaster interiors on residential work were common
quite late. My Dad's house, built in 1952, is plaster over rock lath,
as is the house next door, built a good ten years later. Out in the
'burbs, where price was everything, drywall construction caught on a
lot sooner.

We are really talking about two different products here. Drywall is
the big sheet product, commonly available in 4x8, 4x10, and 4x12 foot
sheets. Aside from it's large size, it is important the face and edges
not be damaged, as they are the finished wall surface. Based on the
comments about the dates the railroads started converting flatcars for
hauling drywall, it doesn't look like an appreciable volume was moving
before 1950 or so.

Rocklath, the original main sheetrock product, is (still used in
commercial work) a small sheet, heavy bundle product that can
withstand somewhat rougher handling, as it will be entirely covered in
the finished building. It was adopted quite early, as it not only
eliminated dealing with lots of little sticks (but then again, so did
wire lath, the third method of plaster support) it also eliminated one
whole coat of plaster, the scratch coat.. The paper used on rocklath
is porous enough that the "brown coat" will bond to the gypsum plaster
core, so the quickly installed 16" x 32" sheets do double duty as lath
and base coat of plaster.

I'm sure that 1927 trainload shipment of "gypsum building products"
was a mix of bagged gypsum plaster and bundled rocklath, all moving in
boxcars.

Dennis
(who always thought that "Rock Around the Clock" just meant working
three shifts)
Storzek


Loading Coal in Box Cars at western Great Lake Terminals

cripete <pjboylanboylan@...>
 

A while back (thread # 55767, Jul. 19,2006), I
said I would return in a couple of days with
details on best sources of usable material on
the mechanized loading of coal from eastern points,
into back hauling grain box cars at Lake Superior
(mostly)ports.
Clearly, this is somewhat late. Lots of other
things interfered with the matter, and also
much material is both, not readily accessible
to most folks, and lacks broad coverage. That is
because trade brochures were not written from a
historic point of view, and are limited in subject
to the immediate products made by their
originating firms.
With apologies for the delay, I believe
that there is a single widely available article.
This is in the TRANSACTIONS of the American
Society of Mechanical Engineers, which are held by
all major urban Public Library reference branch(es),
as well as most College and University libraries.
Certainly, all having engineering schools and most
offering graduate degrees in the sciences, will have
it archived, but State Historic Societies, as well
as major municipal societies have holdings.
It also means that even if no local source is
available, you can use interlibary loan services
to obtain a copy from a holder.

G.H.HUTCHINSON ,"The Handling of Coal at the Head of
the Great Lakes"; TRANSACTIONS,Volume 36, 1914;pps.
283-339 inc.
(from St.Paul-Minneapolis and New York Meeting<s>)
American Society of Mechanical Engineers;
New York,1915.
Hutchinson was the Chief Engineer of the North
Western Fuel Company. This was a stevedoring
operation owning terminals to handle the coal coming
through Duluth set up by Coal merchants in Minneapolis
- St. Paul, and latterly, elsewhere. It expanded
to serve other ports, and was competitive with:
the branded anthracite company terminals; the
coal operations undertaken by grain operators
( e.g.Cargill, etc.),ore companies owned by iron
and steel firms, and agricultural co-operatives,
among others.

It has clear photos of the machinery and terminals
being discussed, and the plans shown ,while small,
are readable and capable of enlargement. It has an
excellent historical summary, and is the source of
the material from the Central Mining Institute of
Western Pennsylvania detailing the development of
portable box car coal loaders, that I quoted in my
original post .

I don't wish to discourage anyone from pursuing
McMyler, Brown Hoist, Carey, Link Belt, et al,-
materials.
These companies produced some excellent brochures
on their products which is very good when they are
using steel engravings with shading to render their
machinery. Like letterpress, or rubber stamps
(that were sometimes substituted for engravings)
they give solid lines.
Unfortunately, and frustratingly for those interested
in rail cars, they used coarse screens for the offset
lithography used in photographs of portside
installations. History wasn't their thing, and the
newly available high speed commercial lithographic
presses were allowing them to knock out these
picture filled, state of the art sales materials.
McGraw-Hill for one, was a major producer of these
commercial materials, acting as a job shop printer.
It allowed them to afford their own state of the art
printing plants and include photographs in the
numerous technical periodicals that they authored.
It is grim to consider that they alone, undoubtedly
handled a couple of hundred thousand transport
related photos that are gone.

The catalogs are still worth looking at, but this
will require visits to those places that have
collected them, because the ones in the hands of
book dealers have become priced above what most
hobbyists can afford. The INTERNET ARCHIVE , which
has been blessed by CAL-Berkeley's library placing
so many central, early, railroad engineering works
online; has not found any one to do the same for
industrial catalogs. These are held diversely
at present. In the main, they are not at technical
institutions. For example: Bay City, Michigan's ,
and Staten Island, New York's local historical
societies hold major collections from equipment makers
that were located in their precincts.

Regardless, the ASME article will serve as either
a starting point for those wanting to pursue the
subject in depth, and is of itself,
an excellent and informative work on the large
volume handling of coal for box car (or other
house car style)loading at the western Great Lake
ports. With apologies for the delay -
Good-Luck, Peter Boylan


Re: "Longitudinal" hopper

Tim O'Connor
 

Could these be the prototype in question?

# Ga-168 Hopper Cars Series 76700-76999 built 1969 longitudinal hoppers
# Ga-170 Hopper Cars Series 64025-64038 built 1969 copper concentrate service

Milwaukee also tried the wind resistance idea -- they built hoppers designed
with a top that was mechanically closed as the train slowly rolled. The cars had
these big 'arms' sticking up IIRC.

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Russ Strodtz" <sheridan@...>
Tim,

Yes it does but the AT&SF seemed to be full of
these oddball ideas. If you take a three bay
GA-122, remove the hoppers and replace with
lengthwise doors and build up or borrow flat car
ends, that model on e-bay is what you are going
to end up with.

Somewhere I have photos of their attempt to reduce
the wind resistance of modern coal hoppers by
putting bonnets over the open end areas. The test
process even included a locomotive with a boom
sticking out about 30' forwards to put wind
measurement instruments.

The purpose built 1963 B-L-H cars are odd enough
in themselves. I don't know what their center of
gravity was but it must have been rather high.

Russ Strodtz
----- Original Message -----
From: timboconnor@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, 18 April, 2007 12:36
Subject: Re: [STMFC] "Longitudinal" hopper



Russ I think you are right that the prototype car was built for
copper concentrates. SP had some really weird looking cars
built around the same time period for that commodity. That
model of a hopper car on a flat car body just looks silly IMO!

Tim O'Connor

134941 - 134960 of 196832