Date   

Re: PFE 12, R-30-2-13 / hooks on side sill

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Guy and Bill,

This is probably getting way off-topic, but the Keeley Institute (source of the Keeley Cure Bill
mentioned) was a well known sanitarium around the turn of the century. It was (IIRC) located in Denver,
though apparently there were others from Bill's reference to Indiana. The ad mentioned the Denver place
being the finest Keeley Institute in the country, or some such puffery. They specialized in curing
various addictions. The ad I saw some years ago mentions tobacco, alcohol and drugs (probably opiates and
cocaine). I don't exactly know what their "cure" involved, but various water treatments were still
popular at that time. I doubt that their success rate was very high, but that would probably have been
blamed hereditary moral degeneracy.

I saw the ad in some railroad publication, maybe the book on Denver streetcars years ago. (Mandatory
train content).

Now back to freight cars.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Bill Kelly wrote:


The can hanging on SP 5 is way to clean to be used for oil.
I got the name from a retired D&RGW engineer. Later the name was
confirmed by Fred Picker in his book _Railroading in Texas_. He
says:"...A device sometimes seen was the Keeley can, a water container to
be wired in dripping position over a hot axle bearing." he went on to say
" I remember the Keeley can because my father was said to have enrolled
for a course at the Keeley Institute in Indiana, a place well-known for
the 'water cure'...."


Re: Keeley: glossaries

Roger J Miener <Roger.Miener@...>
 

Timothy O'Connor (I thought only his mother called him "Timothy")
tries to throw us off the scent and wants us to look south to the
Mississippi delta country, Bay St Louis, Mississippi, to be exact, or
north to Helena, Montana, where, depending upon the season, Stephen E.
(Band of Brothers) Ambrose hangs his hat ...

They all agree on what a Keeley can was...

http://www.railroadextra.com/glossry1.Html
http://www.ksry.com/terms.htm
http://wewood7.freeyellow.com/C-Cy.html

But then, maybe Stephen (Mr. Plagiarism) Ambrose had a hand in it.
Nah, not so. If there was indeed a meddler, it would have been "Mrs.
Plagiarism", Doris Kearns Goodwin, whose motto is, "Ask not what I can
do for the Fitzgeralds and the Kennedys, but ask instead what those
who wrote about them can do for me."

Lessee now, last time I checked on such, I seem to recall that Doris
hailed from Mass-ah-chew-setts. Concord, I do believe. Well, that
was back in 1997. No telling where she is now.

Hmmm, I wonder ... Tim, how close is your Sterling, MA to Concord, MA?
I smell a cover-up. Whitewash - Yessir.

Nice try Tim-oh-thee, but it don't wash with me.

Roger Miener
at Tacoma WA


Keeley: glossaries

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

They all agree on what a Keeley can was...

http://www.railroadextra.com/glossry1.Html
http://www.ksry.com/terms.htm
http://wewood7.freeyellow.com/C-Cy.html

But then, maybe Stephen (Mr. Plagiarism) Ambrose had a hand in it.

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Keeley cans (hooks on side sill)

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

a small stream of water is allowed to run over the journal
Max,

The question is, how small a stream? Certainly the water
supply available from a tender is large enough to cool a
journal -- but a can of water (of what size?) hung from a
small hook on a car side? On a swaying car side, as it rolls
down the Arizona mainline in 100 degree sunshine at 50 mph?
I don't think so.


Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Keeley cans (hooks on side sill)

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Max, the top speed of the Cass Shay's is... ?

At 08:56 PM 2/27/02 -0500, you wrote:
Tim:

Go look at any Shays in rigourous service, say Cass for instance. All
of the engines have been fitted with small diameter piping with a series
of petcocks and small lines extending vertically over every bearing in
the crank. Normal procedure when working hard is to check bearing
temperatures regularly when taking water or oiling around, and if
they're running the least bit warm the petcock is opened and a small
stream of water is allowed to run over the journal housing while the
engine is working to keep them from getting hot enough for the grease or
other lubricants to break down. (And yes I am a mechanical engineer, as
well as a licensed Professional Engineer in 3 states including WV, and
have put thermocouples on many of those bearings and that small stream
of water does cool the lubricant dramatically!)

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: Keeley cans (hooks on side sill)

Kathe Robin <kathe@...>
 

Tim:

Go look at any Shays in rigourous service, say Cass for instance. All
of the engines have been fitted with small diameter piping with a series
of petcocks and small lines extending vertically over every bearing in
the crank. Normal procedure when working hard is to check bearing
temperatures regularly when taking water or oiling around, and if
they're running the least bit warm the petcock is opened and a small
stream of water is allowed to run over the journal housing while the
engine is working to keep them from getting hot enough for the grease or
other lubricants to break down. (And yes I am a mechanical engineer, as
well as a licensed Professional Engineer in 3 states including WV, and
have put thermocouples on many of those bearings and that small stream
of water does cool the lubricant dramatically!)

Max
-----------------------------------------------------
email: m_robin@...

smail: Max S. Robin, P.E.
Cheat River Engineering Inc.
23 Richwood Place / P. O. Box 289
Denville, NJ 07834 - 0289

voice: 973-627-5895 / 973-627-5460
cell.: 973-945-5007
-----------------------------------------------------


Re: Keeley cans (hooks on side sill)

Tim O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
 

Bill,

I don't doubt that you and Guy are correct, but I can't
imagine that a can of water hung over a journal would have
any measurable effect on the temperature of the bearing.
I mean, a bearing can be hot enough to melt solid steel --
even 10 gallons of water heated to 212 degrees F would
evaporate before siphoning off all the BTU's represented
by that kind of an overheated journal.

No wonder that the Chinese water torture method of cooling
hot journals did not endure!

At 02:26 PM 2/27/02 -0700, you wrote:
Guy,
The can hanging on SP 5 is way to clean to be used for oil.
I got the name from a retired D&RGW engineer. Later the name was
confirmed by Fred Picker in his book _Railroading in Texas_. He
says:"...A device sometimes seen was the Keeley can, a water container to
be wired in dripping position over a hot axle bearing." he went on to say
" I remember the Keeley can because my father was said to have enrolled
for a course at the Keeley Institute in Indiana, a place well-known for
the 'water cure'." The can used the same idea as the small valves and
hoses over each journal on Vanderbuilt tenders. I have never seen
anything "official" about the use of water but I would think that the
water was just for cooling because the crew carried oil and tools for
repacking bearings.

Later,
Bill

Timothy O'Connor <timoconnor@...>
Sterling, Massachusetts


Re: PFE 12, R-30-2-13 / hooks on side sill

Bill Kelly
 

Guy,
The can hanging on SP 5 is way to clean to be used for oil.
I got the name from a retired D&RGW engineer. Later the name was
confirmed by Fred Picker in his book _Railroading in Texas_. He
says:"...A device sometimes seen was the Keeley can, a water container to
be wired in dripping position over a hot axle bearing." he went on to say
" I remember the Keeley can because my father was said to have enrolled
for a course at the Keeley Institute in Indiana, a place well-known for
the 'water cure'." The can used the same idea as the small valves and
hoses over each journal on Vanderbuilt tenders. I have never seen
anything "official" about the use of water but I would think that the
water was just for cooling because the crew carried oil and tools for
repacking bearings.

Later,
Bill
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Re: PFE 12, R-30-2-13 / hooks on side sill

thompson@...
 

I was out of town when this interesting thread erupted. Bill Kelly's
answer sounds good to me. But the contention that early cars did not have
spring-loaded journal box lids is, I think, not supportable. The 1906 Car
Builders' Dictionary shows several brands of such lids. Of course not all
railroads may have installed same; but they certainly did exist.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2942 Linden Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 http://www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroads and on Western history


Re: Re-sided Wabash Automobile Box Car

cef39us <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@y..., "skunkskunk2001" <fwj@m...> wrote:
Chet and all:

The discussion on Wabash single sheath automobile box cars got me
to
thinking about one I photographed in the Wolcottville, Indiana
Gravel Pit about 1974. A second look revealed that it had been re-
sided with sheet metal.

Victor,

In 1935, Decatur shop had a program to replace wood sides with steel
on cars in the 45400 - 46001 series. These cars had 5/5/6 corrugated
ends and wood or steel doors. Some of these cars were widened by 2
inches in 1939 and had a 1 placed in front of the number putting them
in the 145000 series.

Chet French


Re: PFE 12, R-30-2-13 / hooks on side sill

webercanyon <webercanyon@...>
 

In the book "Three Barrels of Steam" there is a photo of a UP 5090 4-
10-2, and the author makes a reference to "keelies" being used to
cool
the journals of the tender truck bearings when they ran hot.


Re: PFE 12, R-30-2-13 / hooks on side sill

Bill Kelly
 

These hooks were called "Hot Box Cooler Hooks". They were on SP's cars
built from about 1912 till around 1942 or so. They were also on UP's cars
and probably other Harriman influenced cars. They are called by this name
when shown on car drawings. The cooler was a small water tank and hose.
These coolers were nicknamed "keelies" maybe for someone named Keely, the
inventor? For an example of one in use see _Railroad Model Craftsman_
March 1995, page 14. The photo is of SP caboose number 5 with a keely on
the hooks above the front truck. There's no doubt that people found many
other uses for these hooks but the hot box cooler was the intended use.

Later,
Bill Kelly


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Re: PFE 12, R-30-2-13 / hooks on side sill

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 2/27/02 7:30:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, wbkelly@...
writes:

<< These hooks were called "Hot Box Cooler Hooks". They were on SP's cars
built from about 1912 till around 1942 or so. They were also on UP's cars
and probably other Harriman influenced cars. They are called by this name
when shown on car drawings. The cooler was a small water tank and hose.
These coolers were nicknamed "keelies" maybe for someone named Keely >>

Bill,

Weren't keelies used for adding lubricants to the journal box? Or, were they
strictly used with water for cooling? Did the water run over the box or what?

Thanks for the clarification and I apologize for my mis-leading information
regarding the use of the hooks. I have heard many talk about the hooks as I
describe, and am discovering (more and more) those opinions to be a lousy
source.

Kindest Regards,

Guy Wilber
Sparks, Nevada

PS The only photos that I have seen with the cans in place are those of SP
cabooses. Most are upon cabooses still equipped with arch bar trucks.


Re: ORER / CBC list

Ian Cranstone
 

In a message dated 2/26/02 7:49:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
davemartens@... writes:

<< A while ago, I found a page that listed various ORERs and
CBCs that people owned. Anyone know where that website is? >>
and Guy Wilber noted:

http://www.magi.com/~lamontc/fclorer.html
It's still there, but won't be there for long -- just as soon as magi.com
realizes that I'm a little annoyed with their service and don't plan to
renew... well, you can guess the rest.

The more current version can be found at:

http://members.rogers.com/iancranstone2001/fclorer.html

--
Ian Cranstone
Kanata, Ontario, Canada
lamontc@...


Re: PFE 12, R-30-2-13 / hooks on side sill

Roger J Miener <Roger.Miener@...>
 

Guy Wilber responds ...

The hooks were available to hold the journal box lids open for
service and/or
a "hotbox". A cord, rope or wire was strung between the lid and the
sill
hook.
Well I'll be darned. I, like Larry Jackman, have never seen a journal
box lid that wasn't sprung to stay open when that was desired. I now
wonder if other freightcars of that vintage might have been fitted
with these hooks and that I have just never noticed. I also wonder
who the bright bulb was who came up with the idea of the over-center
spring arrangement that kept journal box lids snapped firmly closed or
open - as the case may be.

The hooks are still present on the R. H. McFarland photo of 36171
(ca. 1937).

Prodded by your comment and aided by a bright light, I took another
look and, sure enough, the hooks are there.

Unless Tony Thompson has more to add on this subject, I suppose that
Guy's response has taken Tony off the hook.

Roger Miener
at Tacoma WA


Re: Re-sided Wabash Automobile Box Car-correction

skunkskunk2001 <fwj@...>
 

Sorry about the duplicate post. The photo is in the photo section.
Victor Baird


Re-sided Wabash Automobile Box Car

skunkskunk2001 <fwj@...>
 

Chet and all:

The discussion on Wabash single sheath automobile box cars got me to
thinking about one I photographed in the Wolcottville, Indiana
Gravel Pit about 1974. A second look revealed that it had been re-
sided with sheet metal. (I uploaded the image to the file section.)
How many of these cars were re-sided like this and when was it done?

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana


ORER / CBC list

davemartens <davemartens@...>
 

Hi,

A while ago, I found a page that listed various ORERs and
CBCs that people owned. Anyone know where that website is?

thanks
Dave


Resided Wabash Box Car

skunkskunk2001 <fwj@...>
 

Chet and all:

The recent discussion of Wabash single sheath box cars got me to
thinking about one I photographed in the gravel pit at Wolcottville,
Indiana in 1974. A second look revealed that it has been resided
with sheet metal like some on other roads. I loaded the image in the
file section. Was this a common practice with these box cars on the
Wabash and when did they reside them?

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana


Re: ORER / CBC list

Guy Wilber
 

In a message dated 2/26/02 7:49:55 PM Pacific Standard Time,
davemartens@... writes:

<< A while ago, I found a page that listed various ORERs and
CBCs that people owned. Anyone know where that website is? >>

http://www.magi.com/~lamontc/fclorer.html

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