Date   

ADMIN: "The engines that pulled them"

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

With regard to the message from Steve Haas:

"However, one reason the list exists is to uncover the truth about Steam Era Freight Cars.
Hopefully that search for the truth extends to the engines that may have
pulled them."

My response: "Well...actually...no it does not. Sorry."

To clarify, discussions about the engines that pulled steam era frt cars are permitted as long as the primary focus is about frt cars or frt trains AND IF the time period is within the group's time period...1900-1960. Post 1960 diesels are definitely not in scope.

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Doodlebug Yahoo! Group??

Chris Thies
 

Does anyone know of an active Yahoo! Group that focuses on doodlebugs?
I am putting plans together for modeling a MoPac doodlebug and had some
general questions about carbody and underframe details.

Thanks,
Chris Thies


Re: Decal guy

Ray Meyer
 

Don does not have email. He can be contacted by phone or mail.
Don Manlick
2127 South 11th Street
Manitowoc, WI 54220-6513
920-684-8688

On 5/3/07, rockroll50401 <cepropst@...> wrote:

Thanks would really appreicate it Ray.


.


--
Atty Raymond G. Meyer
110 E. Main St
Port Washington, WI 53074
262-284-5566
rgmeyer2@...


new Sunshine car?

jerryglow2
 

June MR has a spot in the News & Products section of a Soo Line single-
sheathed boxcar from Sunshine. Is this different than the old Storzak
kit now reissued by Speedwich or a different car?

Jerry Glow


An Explanation

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

www.theruralroute.com had been set up as a medium to
create e-mail addresses. I had only given it a minimal
bandwidth.

That bandwidth was exceeded last night. The situation
has been corrected and if anyone had problems downloading
they should be gone now.

Have plenty of space and plenty of bandwidth but there
was no reason at the time I set this up to allocate it.

Commercial announcement: If anyone does wish to have their
own site, for whatever reason, contact me off-list. Unlike
some other hosts I will not put any advertising on your
site. What will be there is only what you want.

Russ


Re: California state RR museum

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim:

Try this: http://66.129.110.33/ . With the exception of the Pullman photo collection, you only get a list of boxes and folders, with fairly general notes about content. This might not be helpful. As you might imagine, they have a very large SP collection, and you could eat up a lot of precious time wallowing around. My best suggestion is to contact the museum by e-mail and discuss your interests. Give them specific dates you plan to visit, and they will pull the files or boxes you want. Set up your plans well in advance, then confirm your visit again about a week before you arrive if you are asking for a lot of stuff. The library is only open from 1-5 p.m. Tuesday through Saturday. As usual, you are only allowed a pencil and paper, though laptops are allowed. I don't know if you can bring your own scanner. You will find the staff very helpful.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

timboconnor@... wrote:

Garth, do they have a catalog, or do you have to (can you?) browse
the CSRM photo collection? I want to visit someday but I'd like to know
how much time I'll have to allocate to find SP freight car and locomotive
info.

Tim O'Connor


Single sheathed ventilator cars?

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Lee Singletary, on the L&N list, sent me the following information:

"In my copy of a L&N Freight Car Record Book from 1955 7500-7999 were
originally built as single sheathed cars with steel ends and
underframe. 100 of the cars were rebuilt in 1941 into steel sided
double door auto box cars with end doors and renumbered 46900-46999.
84 cars were rebuilt in 1940 and 1941 into steel sided single door
cars and renumbered 94200-94283. 5 cars were modified in 1953 and
1954 to become ventilated box cars and renumbered 7500-7504. The
remainder of the cars were still wood single sheathed."

In a subsequent post, Lee provided an L&N equipment diagram that
clearly shows 7500-7504 as single sheathed ventilator cars.

I think that single sheathed ventilator cars are rare. Does anyone
know of any others?

Thanks,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Texas and Pacific Mail Storage boxcars

asychis@...
 

Hi Guys,

The Amarillo Railroad Museum is interested in producing the T&P 1700-1724
series mail storage boxcars. Doe snayone out there have or know of a painting
diagram? I have most of the data I need from Ed Hawkins excellent article in
the Spring 2000 MPHS Eagle. Thanks!

Jerry Michels



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


Re: Steam-era Freight cars and locomotives for sale

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Brad,

Not that easy to buy anything without any communication
from your end. I'll pass, was in the mood but mood has
changed from "Buy" to "Hold".

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: bbbourb
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tuesday, 01 May, 2007 11:49
Subject: [STMFC] Steam-era Freight cars and locomotives for sale


Have the following HO Freight Car kits for sale:

Proto 2000 8000 gal. tank cars $9 ea. (road names to follow)
Proto 2000 Mather Stock cars $9 ea. undecorated
Accurail 70-ton open hopper $6 ea. Various roads, w/Accumate
coupler
Westerfield 50' Auto Box $15, original box
Westerfield Fowler Box $15, original box
Westerfield Fowler Box $12, Not original box

Also, a steam engine or two:
Roundhouse 2-8-0: $50, undecorated, looks complete except for
extra
set of cylinders

Roundhouse 4-6-0: $60, Painted and lettered for North Arkansas
Line,
modifications not quite complete on tender, photos on request

Athearn Genesis USRA 2-8-2: $80, halfway to a Midland Valley
90-class
prototype, photos on request

Shipping on all items is $5 for the first, $2 each additional.

Will have more items very soon, including decals and other cars.
Again, more details will be offered on the items if you need it.
Hoping to avoid the headache of eBay. Thanks for looking!

Brad Bourbina


Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed?

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Steve Haas writes:

"I realize this has gotten quickly beyond the scope of the list. However, one
reason the list exists is to uncover the truth about Steam Era Freight Cars.
Hopefully that search for the truth extends to the engines that may have
pulled them."

Well...actually...no it does not. Sorry.

"An incorrect statement needs to be refuted where it is made -
even if it does land me in moderator jail for a while."

Well...actually....the last part is possibly true. Depends on how many messages this mistake of yours generates. And, it depends on whether or not I can recall where I left the key to that cell out back in the woods. The others are being cleaned [ first time in 5 yrs ].

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner


Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed?

Steve Haas
 

Ross Strodtz commented:

"This was S.O.P. on GN, even with locomotives. The first locomotives
they bought new after 1960 were the SD45's.
Everything prior was just re-builds."


This statement is totally in error with regards to GN Diesel power.

While numerous early first generation GN diesels (that hauled a whole lot of
Steam Era Freight Cars) were traded in on post 1960 diesels (that also
hauled Steam Era Freight Cars, but not as many) they were _NOT_ rebuilt into
the new units GN purchased.

Post 1960 GN diesel purchase were new, not rebuilt units. It is true that
some of the components salvaged off first generation diesels were
re-manufactured and _possibly_ used on these new GN units, the new units
were not re-builds of the older units in any sense of the word.

I realize this has gotten quickly beyond the scope of the list. However, one
reason the list exists is to uncover the truth about Steam Era Freight Cars.
Hopefully that search for the truth extends to the engines that may have
pulled them. An incorrect statement needs to be refuted where it is made -
even if it does land me in moderator jail for a while.

Which cell shall I lock myself into Mike?


Steve Haas
Sammamish, WA


Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed?

Richard Hendrickson
 

On May 3, 2007, at 12:01 PM, Staffan Ehnbom wrote:

Richard,

You wrote:

Fact 1: Though Camel made doors, they did not make corrugated steel
doors, only the hardware for them. GN (and other) diagram books refer
to "Camel" doors because they had Camel hardware, and that was what
most often needed repair or replacement. (Incidentally, I'm sure
Staffan's recollection of having seen a photo somewhere of a 31000
series car with a wood door is mistaken; it defies credulity that the
GN would have had these cars built with wood doors and then replaced
them with corrugated steel doors within just a few years, and at the
time these cars were built the application of steel doors had become
almost universal car building practice.)

The GN diagram for the 31000 series dated 1927 specifies Camel no. 32
door, definitely a wood door. A 1940 diagram for the 31000 series has
a note saying "Camel all steel 6'0" doors applied per A.F.E.57770,
dated 10-11-39 and which is captioned "Equip 1320 box cars (obviously
covering more cars than the 31000 series) with single 6 ft. steel
doors to replace present wood doors also equip cars with power hand
brakes and truck spring snubbers". I do have the photo of a 31000
series car with a wood door here with me on my desk. I tried to attach
the picture with my mail to the list yesterday but should have known
it doesn't work. Failed to get it into the photo section too. So if
A.T,, Russ and Chet will e-mail me their e-mail addresses, I'll supply
you and Richard with the pictures.
Staffan, your scan of the photo came through just fine (though the
original photo obviously leaves something to be desired) and
establishes without doubt that, to my surprise, the cars were
originally built with Camel wood doors. Ca. 1939 also makes sense as
an approximate date at which they were replaced with steel doors. The
reweigh date on the photo isn't entirely legible but appears to be
mid-1930s, which also squares with the other evidence; someone else had
suggested that the steel doors were applied in the early 1930s, which
seemed implausible. The note attached to the 1940 diagram also
confirms that GN was using the shorthand "Camel doors" on the diagrams
for what were actually Youngstown corrugated steel doors with Camel
fixtures.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed?

proto48er
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Staffan Ehnbom" <staffan.ehnbom@...>
wrote:
.....
The GN diagram for the 31000 series dated 1927 specifies Camel no.
32 door, definitely a wood door. A 1940 diagram for the 31000 series
has a note saying "Camel all steel 6'0" doors applied per
A.F.E.57770, dated 10-11-39 and which is captioned "Equip 1320 box
cars (obviously covering more cars than the 31000 series) with single
6 ft. steel doors to replace present wood doors also equip cars with
power hand brakes and truck spring snubbers". I do have the photo of
a 31000 series car with a wood door here with me on my desk. I tried
to attach the picture with my mail to the list yesterday but should
have known it doesn't work. Failed to get it into the photo section
too. So if A.T,, Russ and Chet will e-mail me their e-mail addresses,
I'll supply you and Richard with the pictures.

staffan...
Staffan -

WOW! I really plowed up a snake when I asked about this car series!!
I sincerely apologize, guys! We (being Jim Zwernemann, Cyril
Durrenberger and myself) had a very tough time figuring out these
cars with the limited amount of information available to us. The "O"
scale result was the Chooch kit from which the model pictured above
was built by Gene Deimling - look in the photo section to see it. I
have been drawing up freight cars for years, and this was, by far,
the biggest challenge to-date.

It has been my experience that, when you try to make a correct
freight car model with very little prototype information, after you
go to all the trouble of making the model and dissemenating a photo
of the finished product, someone ALWAYS comes forward at that point
and tells you what is/was wrong with the model! In this case, the
model kit was created and 120+ kits sold out (almost immediately) by
Chooch in 2000. Dead silence!! We waited and waited to see whether
someone would criticise our efforts - and NOTHING but silence!
Conclusion: We thought no one had any information on these cars! HA!

Staffan - We had a page from a 1931 diagram book (or so we thought it
was from 1931) which had the AB brake and steel door info on it. We
also had a couple of 1930's era photos showing steel doors. They may
have been incorrectly dated. One photo (from the 40's) was from the
Kalmbach Library which clearly showed the underframe details. We
could find no builder's photos for this car series. These would have
probably been GN photos, because the box was built at the St Cloud
Shops on underframes from Pressed Steel Car Co.

From all the above posts, it appears that the cars had these
characteristics:

- As built, they were single sheathed, they had 3/5 Drednaught steel
ends, Camel #32 wood doors with herald on the doors, KC brakes,
Murphy Improved Pivoted Flexible Steel roofs, and (shudder to bring
this up!) Dahlman Andrews trucks.

- About 1939, the wood doors were changed to Camel (Youngstown?) all
steel doors, and power handbrakes were added.

- At some point, AB brakes replaced KC brakes. This is the car in my
drawings. The photos from the 1940's all show AB brakes. The
Dahlman Andrews trucks apparently remained on many cars until the
1950's.

Of course, it is always possible that we ALL were correct - some of
the first cars could have been built with wood doors and later ones
with steel doors! That is polemic for another day!

Staffan, I will send you copies of the scale drawings. Thank you
very much for your help in clarifying things. I wish we had
contacted you back in 2000! I will email you - would LOVE a copy of
the photo with wood doors.

Thanks very much to you other guys for all the input! I wish this
group existed back in 2000 - life would have been easier!

A.T. Kott


Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed?

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Staffan Ehnbom" <staffan.ehnbom@...> wrote:


The GN diagram for the 31000 series dated 1927 specifies Camel no.
32 door, definitely a wood door. A 1940 diagram for the 31000 series
has a note saying "Camel all steel 6'0" doors applied per A.F.E.57770,
dated 10-11-39 and which is captioned "Equip 1320 box cars (obviously
covering more cars than the 31000 series) with single 6 ft. steel
doors to replace present wood doors also equip cars with power hand
brakes and truck spring snubbers". I do have the photo of a 31000
series car with a wood door here with me on my desk. I tried to attach
the picture with my mail to the list yesterday but should have known
it doesn't work. Failed to get it into the photo section too. So if
A.T,, Russ and Chet will e-mail me their e-mail addresses, I'll supply
you and Richard with the pictures.

staffan dot ehnbom at telia dot com
Thank you, Staffan.. This is the point I was trying to make earlier.
When faced with something that doesn't make sense on a "primary
source" document, I don't assume it's an error, I like to think of it
as a clue.

I don't know a thing about this series of cars, other than what I've
been reading here today, but here is what I gathered:

The company document says "Camel doors", and Camel only made complete
wood sheathed doors, they later only supplied fixtures for steel doors;

1927 is just on the edge of using wood doors, and GN tended to favor
wood construction where they felt it was cost effective;

Satffan said he saw a photo of one of these cars with wood doors.

Why should I draw the conclusion that Staffan is in error, and the GN
was in error, simply because I have a preconceived notion that nobody
was ordering wood doors at that late date?

That's not to excuse the poorly written caption, which picks up the
Camel door notation from the primary source, but doesn't explain to us
that it's not what we are looking at.

This whole affair touches on one of my pet peeves; things get cast in
stone because people write into captions what the THINK they see in a
photo. Just as every cast steel truck isn't a Bettendorf truck unless
you can document its manufacturer by the Bettendorf Co., every outside
metal roof isn't a Hutchins roof, or a Murphy roof, or whatever. Even
if one has access to all the Car Builders Cyc's, and all the
manufacturer's catalogs, unless you have the BOM for the order, you
really don't know. There is always the possibility that it's a copy;
that one of the well known companies was knocking off another's
design,; that a supplier no one has ever heard of sold product into
the market before a year or so before going bust, or being bought out.

Along those lines, I'm still looking for information on what is called
out as a "RUSS'L" roof on the diagram of a 1915 built Soo Line car.

That's why I suggest, unless there really is some documentation, that
generic terms like outside metal roof are really more accurate,
because they are ultimately less likely to be proven incorrect.

Dennis


Re: Decal guy

David Allen
 

Clark Probst cepropst@... wrote:
Anybody know how to get a hold of a custom decal guy from Wisconsin I
believe his name is something like Manlick, but I'm sure I massacred
it.

Its Don Manlick. Does good work. His address is:

Donald Manlick
2127 S 11-th
Manitowoc, WI, 54220
(920) 684-8688

Give him a call - he is a good guy.

Dave Allen


Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed?

Scott Thompson
 

Richard,

Well, again it appears that we obviously have a different perspective
on the content of a one paragraph caption.

Scott


--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On May 2, 2007, at 10:34 PM, scott1gn wrote:

Wow do we have a different opinion!
The difference between us is not one of opinion, it is a difference
of
fact. vs. fallacy.

Obviously I have a different perspective on Richard's critique
of the
caption(s) in my book. If it is not obvioius, the caption
information
was not intended to call out every detail nauance of the car
series -
nor do most freight pictorial books of a similar format for that
matter.
Authors do, however, have an obligation to cite the facts they put
in
captions correctly, and your caption for this photo was full of
errors.

Actually based on information listed in more than one GN Freight
Car
Diagram book the doors are described as 'Camel' and the roof is
described as 'Murphy ...' so I would count these as two more
items
that are basically correct in the caption (that would make
four?).
Also the draft gear is described as Miner - air brake is AB
(information in 1951 digram books forward). Westinghouse KC was
removed way before the time period focus of the book (late 60s)-
there is only so much room on a page ... (that one does not
count as
a negative strike against me).
As has been pointed out by others, diagram books are useful but not
entirely trustworthy, and the often-cryptic information they
contain
must be correctly interpreted in the light of other information. I
have a large collection of diagram books from many railroads and
private car owners, and I have learned never to trust them as a
sole
source of information. Some are highly detailed and, for the most
part, accurate. Others are sketchy at best. The GN diagram books
(I
have three separate issues from different years) fall somewhere in
the
middle.

Fact 1: Though Camel made doors, they did not make corrugated
steel
doors, only the hardware for them. GN (and other) diagram books
refer
to "Camel" doors because they had Camel hardware, and that was what
most often needed repair or replacement. (Incidentally, I'm sure
Staffan's recollection of having seen a photo somewhere of a 31000
series car with a wood door is mistaken; it defies credulity that
the
GN would have had these cars built with wood doors and then
replaced
them with corrugated steel doors within just a few years, and at
the
time these cars were built the application of steel doors had
become
almost universal car building practice.)

Fact 2: Murphy was a tradename of the Standard Railway Equipment
Co.
and was applied over the years to a number of different roof
designs
manufactured by that company. The diagram reference to "Murphy
Piv."
was obviously to the Murphy Pivoted Flexible Outside Metal roof,
which
photos confirm is what these cars had, not to the Murphy
rectangular
panel roof, which was entirely different, was not even manufactured
at
the time the cars were built, and - as photos show - was never
applied
to these cars as a replacement.

Fact 3: Miner did not make air brake equipment. They made draft
gear.
The two manufacturers of both K and AB air brake equipment were
Westinghouse and New York. Your caption confuses the two. The
need
for brevity in captions is not an excuse for getting the facts
wrong.

Also, Richard's critique reference to the USRA design is taken
out of
context from the caption. I did not write that the 31000 series
was a
standard USRA design - the line is; 'After World War I the
company
opted to build doubled sheathed wood/steel composite box cars
similar
to the standard USRA design (reference to car 25947; which is on
page
17) which is a double sheathed USRA 'type' - that line does not
say
the 31000 series was a standrd USRA design.
No, it doesn't. But it DOES say that the 31000 series cars were
"similar" to the USRA design, a statement with which I don't think
any
qualified freight car historian would agree. As I have already
pointed
out, the 31000s were "similar" to the USRA cars only in being 40'
single sheathed box cars. Roofs, ends, underframes, doors, and
side
framing were all different. We might quibble about what "similar"
means, but to say that they were "similar" is, at best, misleading
and
not at all useful.

Obviously I do not believe the caption is 'full of errors' and I
would not classify my self as ignorant about the subject matter.
I
guess those pesky GN documents that I used for researching the
book
might be incorrect?
Yes, they might be incorrect, and you may (and obviously did)
misinterpret the information you found there.

Bottom line: the caption is, indeed, full of errors. Whether
those
errors are a consequence of haste and carelessness or of ignorance,
they're still errors.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Decal guy

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Thanks would really appreicate it Ray.

--- In STMFC@..., "Ray Meyer" <rgmeyer2@...> wrote:

His name is Don Manlick and he operates DM Decals out of Manitowoc,
Wisconsin. I don't have his e-mail but will forward your message
to some
who does.

On 5/2/07, rockroll50401 <cepropst@...> wrote:

Anybody know how to get a hold of a custom decal guy from
Wisconsin I
believe his name is something like Manlick, but I'm sure I
massacred
it.
Thanks,
Clark Propst




--
Atty Raymond G. Meyer
110 E. Main St
Port Washington, WI 53074
262-284-5566
rgmeyer2@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or single-sheathed?

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Staffan,

I stand corrected:

55200 = 31462
55201-55399 = 31000-31499
55401-55450 = 31000-31499
X-175 = 31474 = 1962
X-184 = 31220 = 1966
X-185 = 31387 = 1966

These sheets do not cover company material cars
however according to the dreaded diagram book the
only 1927 weed sprayer was GNX-1853 converted in
1954. Now that I know what to look for may have
a drawing for that sucker.

No, I am not going out of the group's time span.
All these cars were built in 1927. This was S.O.P.
on GN, even with locomotives. The first locomotives
they bought new after 1960 were the SD45's.
Everything prior was just re-builds.
(Possibly the SW15's too, just don't remember.)

Now, does anyone know the SAL numbers for:
GN 170995-170999?

Prior numbers of GN 70500-70568 via U.S.Railway Equip?

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Staffan Ehnbom
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, 03 May, 2007 14:11
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: GN 31000-31300 series: Double- or
single-sheathed?


Russ,

You wrote:

Another comment: Looked carefully at the equipment
inventory and could find no sign that any of the
31000-31499 series had been converted into anything
else.

Stock cars 55200-55399 55401-55450, a one-of-a-kind bay window
caboose X-175 and a weed sprayer come to mind.

Staffan Ehnbom


rail museum catalog of negatives and prints

ed_mines
 

Tim's question - do they have a catalog - reminds me that at one time I
had a 3/16 inch thick mimeographed catalog of negatives from the
Pennsylvania State Railroad museum.

Unfortunately like some other lists the quality indicated was far
different than the quality of the prints. I bought a print of a WM
double sheathed box car that was worthless. I paid a premium for some
really marginal steam photos. I could buy excellent steam prints from
Harold Vollrath for half the price(he has some freight cars too).

The only photo I like from that purchase was of a double sheathed RDG
box car with reverse Murphy ends.

I got the list through Tom Tabor who wrote a series of 3 books on
Lackawanna (one of which included freight car photos!). Tom was really
mad at the museum's president; he thought that the catalogers stole
some of the best negatives. That collection has more than it's share of
negatives that should never be printed again.

Ed


Re: Decal guy

Ray Meyer
 

His name is Don Manlick and he operates DM Decals out of Manitowoc,
Wisconsin. I don't have his e-mail but will forward your message to some
who does.

On 5/2/07, rockroll50401 <cepropst@...> wrote:

Anybody know how to get a hold of a custom decal guy from Wisconsin I
believe his name is something like Manlick, but I'm sure I massacred
it.
Thanks,
Clark Propst


--
Atty Raymond G. Meyer
110 E. Main St
Port Washington, WI 53074
262-284-5566
rgmeyer2@...

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