Date   

Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian

red_gate_rover
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:


Lindsay I think you are having difficulty with the logic here.
The person most likely to "condem" your models is one of the
self annointed craftsman/historian curmudgeons, and not one of
the less strict "bozo" modelers.
Tim, My experience of about 40 years in this hobby is that the
people that know the most, the craftsman/historian types have been the
most helpful. I'm sorry that your experience seems to been
otherwise. -Jim Pasquill


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/Modeler Historian

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
That is correct Tom, we have been here before, too often. But when I read the people who disagree with Tony are "bozos" it makes me wonder if anyone remembers your old posting.
I assume, Tim (possibly incorrectly), that you know perfectly well it's not a matter of disagreement. My gripe is only with those who call the provision of historical information "elitism." I don't mind if you (or anyone) disagrees with me--provided you can make your case--nor if you know more than me. There are many, many areas in which I'm far from expert, in fact not even terribly knowledgeable. OTOH, there are a few areas in which I believe I truly AM an expert. In those areas, if you wish to disagree with me, it won't make me call you a "bozo," but you had better bring your best stuff.
But if it's your goal, you can get yourself called a bozo real quick by objecting to the knowledge of others, or provision of same.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/Modeler Historian

red_gate_rover
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Tom Madden wrote

We've plowed this ground before. See STMFC post #21170 from almost
four years ago. Tony Koester used it as the basis for an MR "Trains
of Thought" column.
That is correct Tom, we have been here before, too often. But when I
read the people who disagree with Tony are "bozos" it makes me wonder
if anyone remembers your old posting.
It's not anyone that disagrees with Tony Koester that was being
reffered to with contempt. It was anyone that would inappropriately
label somone who does try to do better as elitist or whatever else.
What's wrong with standing up for oneself if you happen to push the
envelope a bit? I suppose one should avoid calling anyone names at
all, but the term bozo is not all that harsh to decribe someone that
would put down another for doing better or having more knowledge. -
Jim Pasquill


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian

Tim O'Connor
 

Lindsay I think you are having difficulty with the logic here.
The person most likely to "condem" your models is one of the
self annointed craftsman/historian curmudgeons, and not one of
the less strict "bozo" modelers.

At 5/12/2007 02:29 PM Saturday, you wrote:
Tony, Can I join you in being a carmudgeon? I strive to make my
models better! I don't like the folks who condem what I show. I
insist on defining the hohby for myself. Push us a little and we'll
define carmudgeon to you! <GG>
Lindsay Smith


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/Modeler Historian

Tim O'Connor
 

Tom Madden wrote

We've plowed this ground before. See STMFC post #21170 from almost
four years ago. Tony Koester used it as the basis for an MR "Trains
of Thought" column.
That is correct Tom, we have been here before, too often. But when I
read the people who disagree with Tony are "bozos" it makes me wonder
if anyone remembers your old posting. The same name-calling/labeling
has been sprouting over on the RPM group... maybe it's just a seasonal
thing, I don't know. I do know there are many "experts" here who have
not built a model in many years, while many of the so-called "bozos"
are prolific modelers, even if many of their models are not 100%
accurate historical replicas. Oh well maybe I'm just out of step.

Certainly I've read here recently that I should not say anything at
all unless I know with utter certainty that what I am writing is 100%
irrefutable historical truth. And since I never worked for a railroad
and have only a paltry few actual historical documents, I guess I'd
better just shut up.

Tim O'


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/Modeler Historian

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Or, for that matter, make those that are just on
the borderline know for sure they are unwelcome.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim O'Connor
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, 12 May, 2007 10:25
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Modeler/Craftsman/Modeler Historian



>Frank Valoczy wrote:
>> Is it elitist? I don't know. I can see others looking at it
that way,
>> sure; from my own point of view, it isn't, though.
>
>The bozos who use elitism as a form of complaint seem to define
>it as, "you're much more skillful/more knowledgeable than me
and I
>don't want you to remind me of it." [ducking for cover]
>
>Tony Thompson


Mike, are ad hominem commentaries now welcome on STMFC? I am
starting to think I don't belong here, since I derive no
pleasure
from denigrating other model railroaders. (Although I have been
known to make jests occasionally.)

Tim O'Connor


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian

W. Lindsay Smith <wlindsays2000@...>
 

Tony, Can I join you in being a carmudgeon? I strive to make my
models better! I don't like the folks who condem what I show. I
insist on defining the hohby for myself. Push us a little and we'll
define carmudgeon to you! <GG>
Lindsay Smith
--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Greg Martin wrote:
2.) We should all Challenge ourselves to take the next step, from
where ever you are now to a level more likened to a Crafsman,
where
you do strive for authenticity.
Nope. Some will choose just to have fun. We don't HAVE to
challenge ourselves unless that is the kind of hobby we want.
Personally, Greg, I'm with you, but many aren't.
My gripe is with the guys who just want to have fun--a
legitimate
choice, in my mind--but then complain about "rivet counting" and
"elitism" and so forth. Scroom all.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/Modeler Historian

red_gate_rover
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:
Mike, are ad hominem commentaries now welcome on STMFC? I am
starting to think I don't belong here, since I derive no pleasure
from denigrating other model railroaders. (Although I have been
known to make jests occasionally.)
Tim, I am sorry but I don't understand where you are coming from
this comment. How did commenting on how unfair it is for some
modelers to label as elitist or worse those modelers who try harder to
be more accurate turn into denegrating the modelers who don't care
to be more accurate?
-Jim Pasquill


Smoky Valley

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

I recently purchased from a seller in Tallahassee, FL an HO c. 1946-7 Varney "Super Mikado", very nicely built and finished, and little used (this was the early sprung Mikado that used the same cast lead alloy boiler as the Varney Pacific). It is lettered on the cast aluminum Vanderbilt tender "SMOKY VALLEY". Does this private road name ring any bells at all with any of the Florida contingent on this list?

The seller told me that he had had the locomotive for many years, but has no recollection at all from whom he might have purchased it. I am very much interested in recording for the next owner the provenance of this fairly uncommon and pretty robust early Steam Era Freight Car hauling model locomotive.

Any help or leads are much appreciated (BTW, the spelling is SMOKY, nor SMOKEY!).

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/Modeler Historian

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

Tim O:
Mike, are ad hominem commentaries now welcome on STMFC? I am
starting to think I don't belong here, since I derive no pleasure
from denigrating other model railroaders. (Although I have been
known to make jests occasionally.)
We've plowed this ground before. See STMFC post #21170 from almost
four years ago. Tony Koester used it as the basis for an MR "Trains of
Thought" column.

Tom Madden


Re: 3-D printers in the news, and NYC and UP modeling

jaley <jaley@...>
 

On May 8, 8:28am, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

The other large road mentioned with (but much less) trepidation was the
UP.
Mike, do you have any idea of why UP models might not sell? Does this
have
to do with the recent lawsuits, or just model railroaders' resentment of
same? I have noted with some confusion, the lack of a comparable number
of
resin kits for UP in HO, when compared to the SP and ATSF. What is the
possible explanation for this?

Elden,

There are many "possible" explanations. First is the possibility
that resin models do not follow the "usual" concepts of supply and demand.
It is "possible" that many resin models are produced not because a
particular model is "needed" by the marketplace, but instead because a
skilled modeler was interested in building a master.
Another possibility is that many UP cars are very similar to cars
available in plastic. In many cases the primary difference between the
resin car and the plastic car is the presence of Alternating Center Rivets
(ACR).

If we look at box cars, we see that if we IGNORE the ACR [gasp!], 93% of
the fleet in 1951 can be modeled in plastic or resin without kitbashing.

For Automobile cars, we're not so lucky. For lack of the A-50-12, A-50-7,
A-50-18, and A-50-21 classes, we can only model 54% of the Automobile
cars.

Covered Hoppers are no problem; 100% of the fleet can be modeled in
plastic.

Flat cars are boring, and as a result only 10% of the fleet can be modeled
using the P2K (or Pittsburgh Scale Models) kit.

Gondolas could also use a little help. Because of the lack of G-50-7
models, only 72% of the fleet is modelable.

Hoppers (including ballast cars) could also use some help. Currently,
about 50% of the fleet can be modeled using the Atlas and Marklin cars.

Stock cars are in reasonably good shape, at 71%, but would be alot better
if the S-40-10 were available.

Tank cars were few, and there are no models, though kitbashing is a
possibility.


So, I guess the situation for UP modelers isn't that bad, and I imagine
that sales can't be that bad either, or else we wouldn't have all of these
kits available!

Regards,

-Jeff








--
Jeff Aley jaley@pcocd2.intel.com
DPG Chipsets Product Engineering
Intel Corporation, Folsom, CA
(916) 356-3533


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/Modeler Historian

Tim O'Connor
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
Is it elitist? I don't know. I can see others looking at it that way,
sure; from my own point of view, it isn't, though.
The bozos who use elitism as a form of complaint seem to define
it as, "you're much more skillful/more knowledgeable than me and I
don't want you to remind me of it." [ducking for cover]

Tony Thompson

Mike, are ad hominem commentaries now welcome on STMFC? I am
starting to think I don't belong here, since I derive no pleasure
from denigrating other model railroaders. (Although I have been
known to make jests occasionally.)

Tim O'Connor


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian and questions

red_gate_rover
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Frank Valoczy wrote:
Is it elitist? I don't know. I can see others looking at it that
way,
sure; from my own point of view, it isn't, though.
The bozos who use elitism as a form of complaint seem to define
it as, "you're much more skillful/more knowledgeable than me and I
don't want you to remind me of it."
[ducking for cover]
and someone else wrote:
To those who complain about rivet counting, I have a response that's
sorta
become a standard: "Of course I count the rivets. I have to make them
myself, so why would I want to make any more than absolutely
necessary?"

Great stuff. This is the kind of thinking that made me feel right at
home here after reading just a few posts. There are handful of us
that model Maine Two Footers as accurately as we can muster and that's
how we have our fun. We are sometimes called the Two-Foot Police and
elitist, and are accused of taking the fun out of the hobby. What
bunk. What they really mean is "I want you to enjoy the hobby in the
same way that I do, and because you strive for something better you
make me feel inadequate, so I'll tear you down." The good news is that
these types are very few and when you look more closely it seems that
there are more people that look up to those that strive for something
better.

Here's some modeling questions. I've started collecting kits to build
my 1929 freightcar roster. I picked up a Sylvan CNR OB boxcar which
should be correct for 4/29 on. The kit comes with AB brakes and no
information on placement of K brakes. Is there a readily available
reference for K brake placement? Perhaps a comprehensive article has
been written on detailing this kit or about this class of cars? Who
makes the right K brakes to use with this car, Tichy, Cal Scale,
other? What trucks would be correct?
Thank you. -Jim Pasquill


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Tony,

Amen to that, brother. If a hobby is not fun there is
not much reason to have it.

I gave up on active participation over 30 years ago.
Why? It was no longer fun. Went to a Model Railroader
I knew and tried to get an answer to a problem and
was told, "That's easy". That marked a turning point.
If I could not solve an "easy" problem then I might
be in the wrong hobby. And, BTW, that same problem
still exists today, it's just been on "hold".

Rivet counting? While I'm not going to be doing it I
try and help those that are. Personally I could care
less about the underframe arrangement of a car built
70 years ago. On the other hand if I think I have it
will spend an hour looking for that drawing.

Elitism? I may complain about it a little. One of my
problems with these lists is that while I've spent
my entire adult life working for a Railroad the jargon
used on this, (and many other), groups just goes right
by me. My pet peeve is referring to cars by "classes"
instead of number series or car type.

Need someone to take the time to make up a glossary.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 11 May, 2007 19:38
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian


Greg Martin wrote:
> 2.) We should all Challenge ourselves to take the next step,
from
> where ever you are now to a level more likened to a Crafsman,
where
> you do strive for authenticity.

Nope. Some will choose just to have fun. We don't HAVE to
challenge ourselves unless that is the kind of hobby we want.
Personally, Greg, I'm with you, but many aren't.
My gripe is with the guys who just want to have fun--a
legitimate
choice, in my mind--but then complain about "rivet counting" and
"elitism" and so forth. Scroom all.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history




Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: CofGa ventilator car

Jim King
 

The CG vent box has indeed sold out. I produced 200 kits for the group and
most sold quickly. The last 25 or so took a little longer but are now gone.
The next kit from the Society is the wood rack made from the vent box . the
initial 20 were debuted in Savannah in early April but I need to do some
tweaking on the body casting before the rest are run. Contact the Society
at www.cofg.org to get an update on both cars.



Jim King

Smoky Mountain Model Works, Inc.

www.smokymountainmodelworks.com


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dave Nelson wrote:
P.S. If any of you ever wonder where the youth are, they're doing train
sims. They all have a PC, it's dirt cheap $35 will buy you the Cajon route,
Tehachippi, or Donner Pass . . .
And I thought the hippies were history . . .

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian

Dave Nelson <muskoka@...>
 

tgregmrtn@aol.com wrote:

3.) Let's not loose focus on the fact that this list shares not only
how to model a more authentic steam era freight car but the clan
provides historical information to help you attempt to do it
correctly. As I have said IT IS part of my passion and most of us do
it willingly. Many of my personal mentors are here albeit some
passive and other very active, but all willing to help!
Speaking of not missing some facts, here's another one for you guys to chew
on: The Virtual Modeler. I do my modeling in CAD, scaled 12 inches to the
foot. My airbrush is an element of Adobe Photoshop. See, my layout is
virtual -- as in a rail sim -- but everything is scaled 12 inches to the
foot: my mainline is ~115 miles long, the buildings are modeled 1:1 in
Google Sketchup from period Sanborn drawings and photos, etc. etc, such that
when I "step into" a locomotive it's going to take me just as much time as
the real thing does. I have to wait to pump up the air because all my cars
have working brake lines and talk about a momentum throttle, I've got the
equivalent of thousands of tons behind me because the train physics are
pretty darn accurate now.

So when I hear folks debate whether the use of cast brass add-on parts makes
one this or that type of modeller I sometimes have to sit and reflect on
where I fit in... and the answer is usually that I'm simulating railroading.
So is everyone else to one degree or another, varying by time, resources,
talent, knowledge, and tools. In that light I think the actual method isn't
important anymore, it's the degree of fidelity in the simulation that
counts. But I don't know of any clean demarcation lines that make sense as
far as labeling one level of effort and fidelity as somehow being different
from another. Maybe it's like that old definition of porn -- you can't
write one but know it when you see it. Is *that* what divides these hobbies:
pure personal subjectivity? Maybe.

Dave Nelson

P.S. If any of you ever wonder where the youth are, they're doing train
sims. They all have a PC, it's dirt cheap $35 will buy you the Cajon route,
Tehachippi, or Donner Pass, with equipment, and the Great Northern's route
over Marias Pass is free, just to name a couple of routes. Going down this
path doesn't consume their parents garage, their dorm room, or their shared
apartment.


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Frank Valoczy wrote:
Is it elitist? I don't know. I can see others looking at it that way, sure; from my own point of view, it isn't, though.
The bozos who use elitism as a form of complaint seem to define it as, "you're much more skillful/more knowledgeable than me and I don't want you to remind me of it."
[ducking for cover]

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian

destron@...
 

Greg Martin wrote:
2.) We should all Challenge ourselves to take the next step, from
where ever you are now to a level more likened to a Crafsman, where
you do strive for authenticity.
Nope. Some will choose just to have fun. We don't HAVE to
challenge ourselves unless that is the kind of hobby we want.
Personally, Greg, I'm with you, but many aren't.
My gripe is with the guys who just want to have fun--a legitimate
choice, in my mind--but then complain about "rivet counting" and
"elitism" and so forth. Scroom all.
Hear Hear. I also have a bit of an issue with those who come along and say
"this or that isn't right", either uninvited or worse, from those who
aren't even active in the hobby in the same way. I've had a few looks down
the nose at me for saying, "why, no, I don't want an empire
operation-based layout, even if I had the space." If I had the space, I'd
recreate Greenville or Spartanburg instead of Honea Path. Or Honea Path to
proper scale.

To those who complain about rivet counting, I have a response that's sorta
become a standard: "Of course I count the rivets. I have to make them
myself, so why would I want to make any more than absolutely necessary?"

I've even had a certain amount of... well, not quite disdain, but being
viewed as the curio, the "class oddity", for modeling in TT scale, so I've
tended to be more of a private modeler; but I did enjoy the atmosphere at
the Northwest RPM meet. I did get the occasional "So, *this* is TT...",
but I never got the condescension or feeling like the monkey at the zoo
must feel. I guess that comes from having been amongst a similarly minded
group. I'm not alone as being viewed as odd at the nearest LHS, I know
that a few others of us who go there are considered "insane" for actually
paying attention to detail and wanting as accurate a model as possible.
So, we mostly just stick to ourselves, and to those who don't view us as
strange. Is this cliquish? Probably. Is it elitist? I don't know. I can
see others looking at it that way, sure; from my own point of view, it
isn't, though. If I like soccer but not baseball, I'm not going to hang
out with baseball fans to watch the game, but rather with other soccer
fans. Similarly in the hobby. If there are others around who share my
interests, of course I'll associate more with them than with those that
don't. The difference between the hobbyist and the sports fan here, is
that the baseball fan probably won't think of me as elitist for not liking
baseball, and complain about it.

Frank Valoczy


Re: Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian

Greg Martin
 

tony,

You know I am with you here, make no mistake. You hit the nail on the head, we are now identified as something less if we take the Challenge. And Like you I only want to help others understand that our option is OUR CHOICE and we are willing to share in most cases unconditionally, as I know you have done and other like you for many, many years! Not only with other modelers, but manufacturers as well.

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: thompson@signaturepress.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 11 May 2007 5:38 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Modeler/Craftsman/ Modeler Historian


Greg Martin wrote:
2.) We should all Challenge ourselves to take the next step, from
where ever you are now to a level more likened to a Crafsman, where
you do strive for authenticity.
Nope. Some will choose just to have fun. We don't HAVE to
challenge ourselves unless that is the kind of hobby we want.
Personally, Greg, I'm with you, but many aren't.
My gripe is with the guys who just want to have fun--a legitimate
choice, in my mind--but then complain about "rivet counting" and
"elitism" and so forth. Scroom all.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history



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