Date   

Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Something else to consider in regard to the share of traffic thing. While PFE may have preferred one eastern road, say the SDG, it was owned by SP and UP, which had relationships with other roads, say for example road RME for auto parts or other high value westbound traffic. If PFE caused traffic to be routed away from RME, that road might retaliate by trying to get that other traffic going west routed ATSF or DRGW/WP. A lot of that log-rolling behavior occurred and was, I believe, an important factor in maintaining traffic balance.
This is very true, and all the PFE people I spoke with remarked on their need to understand the concerns of the "parent railroads" and follow them, within reason. But at the same time, UP and SP understood that PFE's stock in trade was consistent, timely delivery of perishables. I seriously doubt that UP or SP would have required PFE to do routings which resulted in poorer delivery. Remember, UPD and SP were not exactly podunk railroads which could be pressured by smaller roads; and "retaliation" can works both ways.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Tim O'Connor
 

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>

That's what you would obviously expect if you look at who served the four
large produce areas of California.

Imperial Valley - SP only
San Joaquin Valley - SP, SF
Salinas Valley - SP only
Sacramento Valley - SP, WP
Do you have numbers for that Malcolm? I couldn't help but notice that
you left out the entire LA region, from the Simi Valley to Riverside and
Santa Ana and southwards to San Diego. This was the source of the
Santa Fe's citrus traffic, for example.

Tim O'


Re: looking for Ted Culotta

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 18, 2007, at 11:50 AM, timboconnor@... wrote:

Anyone been in contact with Ted since Collinsville? I've
been trying to email him without any luck.
I talked to him on the phone Saturday. You may have an out of date
e-mail address. Try <tculotta@...>.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 18, 2007, at 11:28 AM, Bruce Smith wrote:

Blah, blah, blah...
Now to collect my winnings from Brianna! ;^)
Doesn't that qualify as child abuse? Be careful! All too soon she'll
be bigger and stronger than you. Maybe smarter as well.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

If the ERIE is supposed to be the bridge line to New England,
it seems like a lot of Maine spuds are moving on the PRR compared to
the ERIE.

Bruce F. Smith
========

Let's not start comparing app[les with bananas. The bulk of those spuds are most likely going to the area of largest population, i.e., New York to Washington. I don't seeErie in that ruting.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Something else to consider in regard to the share of traffic thing. While PFE may have preferred one eastern road, say the SDG, it was owned by SP and UP, which had relationships with other roads, say for example road RME for auto parts or other high value westbound traffic. If PFE caused traffic to be routed away from RME, that road might retaliate by trying to get that other traffic going west routed ATSF or DRGW/WP. A lot of that log-rolling behavior occurred and was, I believe, an important factor in maintaining traffic balance.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "Anthony Thompson" Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Most perishable fruit and vegetable traffic from the west went to
Chicago via SF and was transferred to the ERIE when headed to NYC or
New England.
Ahem. If you check, Schuyler, you will find that PFE's traffic
through Chicago was more than 50% greater than SFRD, and in some years
was double.
================================

That's what you would obviously expect if you look at who served the four large rpoduce areas of California.

Imperial Valley - SP only
San Joaquin Valley - SP, SF
Salinas Valley - SP only
Sacramento Valley - SP, WP

The largest share went SP, in PFE reefers. The largest share of that went UP and MILW/CNW/RI/Q to Chicago. But don't forget the St. Louis gateway. It also was a big player in the produce traffic, but not so much for SF. SP's long hauls were Tucmcari/RI and Denison/SSW.

Traffic from the SF at Chicago went directly to NYC, Erie, PRR, B&O and NKP. I know that NYC, NKP and PRR got a lot of it, and a large part of that was to NY and New England. It might be reasonable to think that Erie got 30 %, a stretch to think 40 % and preposterous to say most of it. The shippers weren't that dumb. They spread the traffic well among competing railroads to avoid becoming dependent on any one.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

. Having the SFRD or PFE somehow prefer
the Erie makes a good story, but I don't believe it's borne out by
the facts.
============

This overlooks an essential fact. It was the shipper who determined the routing, not SF or PFE of their owners SP and UP, so it didn't matter that much if the PFE car service people preferred the Erie. The routing wasn't their call. Shippers had the absolute right to select any route in the tariff.

We have some annecdotal evidence from a few PFE people looking back 50 years and talking about how the situation was perceived, but that tells us little about how traffic was actually routed. Some it had to do with which railroad's salesman had most recently bought them a good dinner on the San Francisco waterront.

I'm not saying these reporters are in error about their route preferences, just that we should not be generalizing too much from their statements.

> way, their opinion of New York Central perishable performance was only a hair better.
Neither road especially seemed to care about timely perishable deliveries;

That may have been their impression, but I know that in the case of the NYC it was false. In the 50's and 60's we may not have been as good as the Erie, but not for lack of trying. Don't know about PRR, but wouldn't be surprised.

> He clearly stated that Erie was the most dependable service to New York and as a connection to Boston. I really doubt he was just telling a "good story." He had no reason to.

A comment like this should be taken in context. Most likely he's talking about the difference between 80 to 87 percent reliability for one and 85 to 92 percent for the other. It's not like the difference between 60 % and 95 %. The 80 to 90 % on major routes was typical of the 60's. Much over 90 % was of course unachievable because of the inevitable bad orders, derailments, storms and other events that made perfect connections impossible.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

The ERIE was the largest carrier of perishable traffic from the west via the Chicago gateway to the east coast.
I don't dispute this, but Erie wasn't exactly dominant. NYC and PRR were major carriers, and the NKP/WAB-LV/DL&W routes were not insignificant.

> The ERIE's service to NYC was the fastest for this type of merchandise.

Not true. If you look at those trains arriving Chicago around midnight with traffic for the NY produce market 48 hours later, you'll see that Erie and NYC are about equal. Erie service was commendable given their disadvantage of having to float all of their NY traffic across the river. As a former NYC man, I will not contest the fact that service relaibility on the Erie was better.

To Boston, however, NYC was definitely faster. I'll have to check my Erie freight timetable tonight, thanks to Schuyler that I have it, and see what the actual times were.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic - icing stations

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

The idea that the PRR's having a lot of icing stations meaning that they carried more is a great example of deducing incorrect conclusions from documented information. A lot of icing stations, ....suggests, , that they had a hard time getting perishable freight over the line in a timely manner, and had to be prepared to re-ice it frequently to avoid, as much as possible, losing it.

==============

I don't think the data supports either of these conclusions. The number of icing stations is what you would expect for a railroad that went to so many places. All railroads had icing stations at every terminal that handled much perishables traffic, and there was no significant city that didn't receive many meat and produce cars every day.

The only icing stations that a PRR car passed from Chicago to Enola were Fort Wayne, Crestline, Johnstown, Altoona, Huntingdon and Enola. Altoona and Huntingdon were the normal scheduled icing stations. No car from Chicago would have needed icing at Fort Wayne or Crestline, and they certainly would not have stopped a through train at Johnstown for icing that could be done at Altoona or Huntingdon.

Look at the locations of icing stations on the NYC or Erie and you'll likely see a number that is similar in relation to length of the railroads.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Produce traffic on the PRR

Tim O'Connor
 

Dave, I think you've been misplacing decimal points somewhere.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@...>

PA:
Peaches: 2459 carloads, 2% of the national peach carloadings.
122,950 carloads of peaches??

Grapes: 54 carloadings, less than 1/100th of a percent
540,000 carloads of grapes??

Apples: 2154 carloadings, less than a third of one pecent
646,200 carloads of apples??

Tomatos: 6138 carloadings, about 2.25% of the national tomato
272,800 carloads of tomatoes??

and so on and so forth... :-)

Tim O'Connor


NKP-Erie Citrus Traffic

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Also anecdotally, I've seen many pictures of NKP fast freights
with reefers, esp meat reefers. Where did they go after the NKP
brought them to Buffalo? Surely not all on the Erie, since you
also had LV, DL&W, NYC, PRR, B&O connections there.

Tim O'Connor
==============

I can offer some thoughts on that. I believe NKP was DL&W's primary western connection. There was also LV which was competitve to NJ. Also the amount of Bufalo traffic was not insignificant. There were B&O and PRR connections, but those would have been rather circuitous. You might think PRR to Wilkes-Brre area, but one of the trains from Chicago had an Altoona block for connection to the WB train originating there. You have to discount NYC and erie because they worked hard to solicit traffic through Chicago and certainly any service on BFO interchange received wasn't as good as their Chicago. In fact on the NYC traffic from Cleveland and Buffalo might arrive DeWitt after traffic leaving Chicago or Indianapolis at the same time.

In summary, I'd estimate that the lion's share of those reefers on the NKP were for DL&W, LV and Buffalo local customers.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Decal Prodcution Help-Suggestions Needed

rgs0554
 

At 6/18/2007 01:38 PM Monday, you wrote:
I have 14 Challenger Imports Union Pacific G-50-7 gondolas that I am
going to use on my branchline. The only problem is they are lettered
in the 1947 all yellow scheme and I need to change the lettering to
the all white scheme. Any ideas on who could produce a lettering set
so I can re-letter my cars? Thanks.

Jason Sanford
Hi Jason, Get some Champ decal sets HG-146 which is for white lettering. You can order
online from Champ. They have them in stock. When I was involved with the UP Historical
Society and the Detail Associates UP/SP/IC drop bottom gon kit I supplied Rich Meyer (now
deceased) of Champ with the correct lettering data. I'd suggest you check it out. Regards,
Don Smith


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Chet French <cfrench@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Schuyler Larrabee"
<schuyler.larrabee@...> wrote:



Also anecdotally, I've seen many pictures of NKP fast freights
with reefers, esp meat reefers. Where did they go after the NKP
brought them to Buffalo? Surely not all on the Erie, since you
also had LV, DL&W, NYC, PRR, B&O connections there.

Tim O'Connor
The discussion is about perishable fruit traffic (and not
exclusively citrus as I pointed out
before) but the NKP and the DL&W had a tight working relationship
for decades. Much of that traffic
headed to NYC went on the DL&W, but some went to the ERIE.
Clearly, traffic for Rochester,
Syracuse, Utica (well, maybe not there), Albany etc, likely went
NYC.

Most perishable fruit and vegetable traffic from the west went to
Chicago via SF and was transferred
to the ERIE when headed to NYC or New England.

The Wabash had a steady perishable interchange business with the ERIE
at Huntington, Ind. delivering cars that had been received by the
Wabash at the Kansas City and St Louis gateways. I only have one
example handy. On Nov. 13, 1950, St Louis #82 delivered 11
perishable to the Erie which moved east on their train #74. Later in
the day KC#82 delivered 6 additional cars which moved on Erie #98.
Also on the 13th, an eastbound time freight extra (TFX) reduced their
train by 31 perishables between Tilton, IL and Montpelier, Ohio. The
cars could have been delivered to the Big 4, NKP, or CIL at
Lafayette, the CIL (Monon) at Delphi, PRR at Logansport or Ft Wayne,
or the Erie at Huntington.

Chet French
Dixon, IL


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

I try to be polite in my postings and apologize in advance for some of the tone of this one, but the following quote is maddening, and I can’t understand why such nonsense persists.

> "Maybrook and Jersey City that avoided any place bigger than Akron, OH" is a terrific advantage when the NYC and the PRR had their trains yarded every 100 miles, causing huge delays. "

That statement is completely false. It may refer to the late 19th century, but has nothing to do ith the era after railroads constructed the large hump yards that enabled long distance blocking.

If you look at PRR schedules for 1952, you will see that at 59th st. Chicago traffic was blocked through to Enola. At Enola, blocks were made for Waverly, Greenville, Harsimus Cove and other metro NY destinations and connections.

I know the NYC service from having been there and I will quote from the freight schedule book of 1967, which was not substantially different from the late 50’s. Many western roads had troans with meat and perishables from the west arriving in the hours before midnight. For example, meat loaded in Iowa on Monday would go into a Tuesday morning train to Chicago and be there Tuesday evening.

The IHB had “pullers” waiting at Proviso and Bensenville to take traffic to Blue Island, with a 3:00 am cutoff. These pullers handled most of the meat and produce from the west, including lots of PFE and SF traffic. There were similar arrangements with the PRR, B&O and other eastern roads.

That traffic was over the hump at Blue Island in time for the deaprture of NY-2 at 11:00 am. That train had two blocks:
- DeWitt other than Wayneport reicers.
- Perishables for reicing at Wayneport.
NY-2 arrived DeWitt at 8:00 am, was humped, and departed at 2:00 pm. Arrival in New York was around midnight. Produce cars were placed at 33rd Street in time for the opening of the produce market at 3:00 am, a little more than two days after interchange receipt at Chicago and sixth morning after loading in California. Here’s a link to the schedule http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/64-train-ny-2.jpg

I had some personal experience with that 3:00 am market. We paid freight claims for market loss on cars placed after 3:00 am. If the market ofr the particular type of produce in a carload between 3:00 am and the time of placement, the customer could claim the difference. One of my trainee assignments in the transportation department in 1963 was verifying car movement times as needed to validate market loss claims.

The Erie had similar expedited schedules. They were under a bit of a handicap because their cars had to be floated across the river to the market, which meant the absolute schedule wasn’t as good. But it was service that counted and missed connections hurt. I know we always had to goal of matching the the Erie in service reliability. It was difficult because the NYC was much more concious than the Erie of performance indicators like cost per car switched and gross-ton-miles per freight train hour.

Service on the PRR was similar, but it was widely believed at the time that for service reliability Erie was tops and PRR was a laggard.

It was not and is not known whether spending the extra money for greater service reliability actually attracted enough traffic to contribute to overall profitability of the railroad. I can speak with some authority on that having done my master’s thesis in 1961 entitled “The Effect of Railroad Service Quality on Freight Traffic Potential.” Any useful data was very hard to find and a careful look at costs showed that a tremendous traffic differnec would have been needed to justify many service improvements.

http://www.canadasouthern.com/caso/images/64-train-ny-2.jpg

It was normal for an ordinary freight car on the NYC to be classified three or four times, occasionally two and rarely six between origin and destinations. A car would always be switched at origin and destination yards. Rarely were those two yards erved by the same train, so most cars had at least one intermediate classification, often two. Three intermediate classifications was unusual and four was rare. One reason for that was that the blocking policy was designed to move the highest volume car flows the longest distances between yardings.

The NYC was not so different from other railroads that you couldn’t estimate the same to be true of other railroads. When I was the supervisor of schedule information in the NYC marketing department in 1965, I had the freight schedules of nearly 100 Class 1 railroads in my desk. I did once read the PRR book and found it not basically different in scheduling and blocking policy, except that it was a lot more pages.

The stuff about switching every hundred miles just has no connection with the reality of 50’s railroading.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: 1947 Great Northern Carloads--Commodities Likely Moving in Reefers

Tim O'Connor
 

GN and NP originated a lot of potatoes in North Dakota's Red River
valley region.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "gary laakso" <vasa0vasa@...>
My handy 1947 Great Northern Annual Report shows the following carloads for
commodities that I think may have moved in reefers:

originated received from connections
1- apples, fresh 22,474 539
2- other fresh fruits 3,671 8,947
3- potatoes 19,302 3,477
4- vegetables, fresh 1,317 4,408
5- flaxseed 5,281 76
6- sugar beets 9,759 1
7- other products of ag. 8,245 4,464
8- eggs 2,115 84
9- butter 997 57
10- beverages 1,444 3,002

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

Richard Hendrickson says:


On Jun 18, 2007, at 9:22 AM, Mike Brock wrote:

Schuyler Larrabee writes:

"The ERIE was first in many things."
Mike Brock said:

Well. Certainly I would agree. I believe they were several
months...maybe
even a year...ahead of the Virginian in developing the Triplex.
Plus some more nonsensical stuff.

And Richard notes:

"Freight cars? Isn't this list about freight cars?"

Freight Cars? Isn't this the Erie Group? Uh oh...

"Can Jeff Aley jail
the moderator for being totally off-topic?"

In the words of that 4449 fireman standing next to me in Sacramento replying to my, "Can't we just call the SP dispatcher to find out when 4449 is going to leave?"...."Probably Not."

Mike Brock...from deep down in his bunker...bunker...bunker [ echoes of course ].

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Decal Prodcution Help-Suggestions Needed

balryan@...
 

I would go with Odd Ball Decals or Champ if you can get them I used a set of Odd Balls on a UP HT70-1  hopper car and it turned out great.

Ryan Ballard

-----Original Message-----
From: ogdentowebercanyon <ogdentowebercanyon@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 11:38 am
Subject: [STMFC] Decal Prodcution Help-Suggestions Needed







I have 14 Challenger Imports Union Pacific G-50-7 gondolas that I am
going to use on my branchline. The only problem is they are lettered
in the 1947 all yellow scheme and I need to change the lettering to
the all white scheme. Any ideas on who could produce a lettering set
so I can re-letter my cars? Thanks.

Jason Sanford





________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: Caswell Gondolas delayed

Steve SANDIFER
 

I picked up three today at my dealer, RTR. Ajax/AB brakes, wire grabs installed, ATSF reporting marks, 1949 weight date. Very nice looking car. I am in hopes they will do the late paint with vertical staff brakes (AB) at which time I will get 5-6 more.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer
mailto:steve.sandifer@...
Home: 12027 Mulholland Dr., Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX
77025, 713-667-9417
Personal: http://www.geocities.com/stevesandifer2000/index
Church: http://www.swcentral.org

----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Miller
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Caswell Gondolas delayed


Marty,
My dealer order my KITS. Then he asked me which I wanted K brake or AB.
This is the same dumb packaging they did for the stock car, lots of boxes
for a couple of sprues. Dealers nightmare!
Latest email from my dealer, IM just called him and told him his RTRs
were close/read to ship. He advised them to check the order as it had said
KITS! They said Oops but I think the shipment is in transit. I told him I
would take the RTRs (to save him trouble and reshipment) but they had to be
at the same price as my ordered kits.
Now I still don't know when my KITS are going to get here.

Jon Miller
AT&SF
For me time has stopped in 1941
Digitrax, Chief/Zephyr systems, JMRI user
NMRA Life member #2623
Member SFRH&MS


Re: Produce traffic on the PRR was Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic long

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Rich Orr wrote:
Oranges/grapefruits were primarily ebing produced in Florida during
the steam era.  IIRC the orange and grapefruit farms were not yet that
plentiful in Southern Callifornia.  At least not until the mid-late
50's. 
Not exactly. Florida oranges, then as now are largely used for
juice, California oranges largely for table use. The total FGE
carloadings out of Florida (not all citrus, of course) were 103,000 in
1953; the PFE and SFRD carloadings out of Southern California and
Arizona in that year were about 180,000 (not all citrus, of course). It
would be interesting to know the separation of citrus fruit from juice
in Florida carloadings. PFE's carloadings of citrus trailed only
lettuce and potatoes in, say, 1953. Grapefruit ripens best in truly hot
climates, thus its predominant production in Arizona, Texas and
Florida.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

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