Date   

Sunshine SAL round roof kit vs. the X31F was Re: Re: Sunshine Models 40'

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Pieter Roos wrote:
"FWIW, West Shore Line had an HO resin X31 before the Sunshine model,
cast for them by F&C. I have one in my "to-do" pile, so I may have to
join your PRRPro group and get it built!"

Are you sure it's an X31? The West Shore Line PRR round roof boxcar
kits that I have are Class X32 50 ft cars, though it wouldn't surprise
me if there was a West Shore Line X31 since Funaro did the masters for
the Sunshine kits.


Ben Hom


Sunshine SAL round roof kit vs. the X31F was Re: Re: Sunshine Models 40'

Pieter Roos
 

Hi Bruce;

No apology needed, and I should have thought to look at the Sunshine
list before writing the second part of my message. John Degnan has
pointed out to me that SAL preferred the term "turtleback" for it's
cars, as opposed to the PRR "roundroof". Then things get more confused
with the use of "turtleback" for raised roof PRR version. Was that
term used by PRR or is it a railfan term?

FWIW, West Shore Line had an HO resin X31 before the Sunshine model,
cast for them by F&C. I have one in my "to-do" pile, so I may have to
join your PRRPro group and get it built!

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., Bruce Smith <smithbf@...> wrote:

Pieter,

My apologies. I did not find the original message nearly as clear as
you did. The implication to me in asking about availability of a kit
was that it was OOP and the original author was asking about
availability on the secondary market. After all, we've been provided
with the current list of Sunshine kits repeatedly here, so anyone
would KNOW that they could simply look up a kit to find out, for
example, that Sunshine kits 55.8/55.9 "Seaboard 19000 series steel
boxcar,round roof,Pullman dart not ends,Apex metal rb" remain in
production, the price is $32. And of course we all know that the
wait for delivery is around 6 months. That combined with the
implication that the original author wanted to modify a kit to be an
SAL car and the phrase "turtleback", which was routinely applied to
the PRR car in question, added to the confusion. Indeed a search of
the Sunshine kits list with "turtleback" results in only one model,
the X31F. Additionally, my post was a clarification to the post of
C.J. Riley who, as you may notice, ASKED if the PRR X31F was the car
in question because he, like I, did not find the original post as
definitive as you did. Finally, I just couldn't miss the opportunity
to plug the next PRRPro project, the X31, beginning August 1 at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ <G>.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0
On Jun 21, 2007, at 8:23 AM, pieter_roos wrote:

Hi;

The original post said "turtleback" rather than "roundroof", and went
on to mention an SAL car class which are two BIG clues that the poster
is NOT looking for PRR X31 class cars. The Seaboard "turtleback" cars,
as John Degnan describes, are totally different designs.

That said, I have no idea of the availability of Sunshine's kit for
this car nor what a "fair" price would be. If it cannot be ordered
direct from Sunshine any longer then I guess "fair" price is whatever
you and the seller can agree on!

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@> wrote:

--- destron@ wrote:

I'm curious about the model mentioned in the subject line. How
easy/hard
is it to find? What sort of price is 'good'? I want to use this
to do an
SAL AF2. What is the prototype for the model?


Sunshine SAL round roof kit vs. the X31F was Re: Re: Sunshine Models 40' turtleback autobox

Bruce Smith
 

Pieter,

My apologies. I did not find the original message nearly as clear as you did. The implication to me in asking about availability of a kit was that it was OOP and the original author was asking about availability on the secondary market. After all, we've been provided with the current list of Sunshine kits repeatedly here, so anyone would KNOW that they could simply look up a kit to find out, for example, that Sunshine kits 55.8/55.9 "Seaboard 19000 series steel boxcar,round roof,Pullman dart not ends,Apex metal rb" remain in production, the price is $32. And of course we all know that the wait for delivery is around 6 months. That combined with the implication that the original author wanted to modify a kit to be an SAL car and the phrase "turtleback", which was routinely applied to the PRR car in question, added to the confusion. Indeed a search of the Sunshine kits list with "turtleback" results in only one model, the X31F. Additionally, my post was a clarification to the post of C.J. Riley who, as you may notice, ASKED if the PRR X31F was the car in question because he, like I, did not find the original post as definitive as you did. Finally, I just couldn't miss the opportunity to plug the next PRRPro project, the X31, beginning August 1 at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PRRPro/ <G>.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

On Jun 21, 2007, at 8:23 AM, pieter_roos wrote:

Hi;

The original post said "turtleback" rather than "roundroof", and went
on to mention an SAL car class which are two BIG clues that the poster
is NOT looking for PRR X31 class cars. The Seaboard "turtleback" cars,
as John Degnan describes, are totally different designs.

That said, I have no idea of the availability of Sunshine's kit for
this car nor what a "fair" price would be. If it cannot be ordered
direct from Sunshine any longer then I guess "fair" price is whatever
you and the seller can agree on!

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

--- destron@... wrote:

I'm curious about the model mentioned in the subject line. How
easy/hard
is it to find? What sort of price is 'good'? I want to use this
to do an
SAL AF2. What is the prototype for the model?


Re: Sunshine Models 40' turtleback autobox

Pieter Roos
 

Hi;

The original post said "turtleback" rather than "roundroof", and went
on to mention an SAL car class which are two BIG clues that the poster
is NOT looking for PRR X31 class cars. The Seaboard "turtleback" cars,
as John Degnan describes, are totally different designs.

That said, I have no idea of the availability of Sunshine's kit for
this car nor what a "fair" price would be. If it cannot be ordered
direct from Sunshine any longer then I guess "fair" price is whatever
you and the seller can agree on!

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., "Bruce Smith" <smithbf@...> wrote:

--- destron@... wrote:

I'm curious about the model mentioned in the subject line. How
easy/hard
is it to find? What sort of price is 'good'? I want to use this
to do an
SAL AF2. What is the prototype for the model?
On Wed, June 20, 2007 9:45 pm, cj riley wrote:
Are you referring to the Pennsy turtleback cars modified to carry
Jeeps
(and
later, cars)"

I have built the kit recently, but fair value is in the eyes of the
"potential" buyer.
The PRR car was class X31F. In addition to the Sunshine kit, there is a
Bowser kit. Coincidentally, we'll be building X31s as our next
project on
the PRRPro group, beginning around August 1st and the X31F is
included in
that project.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Pacific Electric 65' gons

destron@...
 

I recall reading in several places that the Pacific Electric's 65' gons
lasted in PE markings until 1953, but the Jan 53 ORER doesn't list them
under the PE's entry.

Does anyone know a source of information on these cars? Specifically I'd
like to know how long they lasted in PE lettering, though I'd not be
averse to seeing some photos or drawings.

Frank Valoczy
New Westminster, BC


Re: Sunshine Models 40' turtleback autobox

destron@...
 

Thanks for that heads-up. I might well wait, since it isn't a priority
project; was just thinking to do one of each SAL slogan car in HO as a
display project.

Frank Valoczy
New Westminster, BC

For Everyone's Information :

The single-door, little brother of and predecessor to the double-door car
Frank is asking about is coming out very soon in both S and HO... and the
word from the manufacturer is that the double-door versions of these
turtle-back cars "MIGHT" follow. So you may not need to bother bashing
one. See below :

http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/SALRoundRoofBoxCarProject.htm


John Degnan
Scaler164@...


----- Original Message -----
From: destron@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: June 20, 2007 7:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Sunshine Models 40' turtleback autobox



I'm curious about the model mentioned in the subject line. How easy/hard
is it to find? What sort of price is 'good'? I want to use this to do an
SAL AF2. What is the prototype for the model?

Frank Valoczy
New Westminster, BC

PS: Does anyone know if there exist decals for SAL's 25000-25499 series
of
boxcars, for the silver livery with red lettering and "Silver Star"
slogan?




Yahoo! Groups Links









Yahoo! Groups Links





!DSPAM:1291,4679eade318231604014427!


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic - freight claims

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Greg Martin wrote:
The terminating road usually gets the blame for perishables (hence the name). They tend to spoil fastest towards the end of their runs and since most had been in transit for a week by the time PRR got them from the west coast, what else would you expect?
Malcolm Laughlin replied:
It didn't actually work that way. Damage claims were apportioned among the railroads in the route, IIRC in proportion to mileage, unless it was demonstrable that one railroad caused the damage, which was unusual except in the case of market loss claims.
Gosh. Greg Martin doesn't know everything about shipping? I'm thunderstruck. What Malcolm says makes eminent sense. If the arrangement were otherwise, there would be no good reason to calculate damage claims per ton-mile.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Sunshine Models 40' turtleback autobox

John Degnan <Scaler164@...>
 

For Everyone's Information :

The single-door, little brother of and predecessor to the double-door car Frank is asking about is coming out very soon in both S and HO... and the word from the manufacturer is that the double-door versions of these turtle-back cars "MIGHT" follow. So you may not need to bother bashing one. See below :

http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/SALRoundRoofBoxCarProject.htm


John Degnan
Scaler164@...

----- Original Message -----
From: destron@...
To: STMFC@...
Sent: June 20, 2007 7:35 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Sunshine Models 40' turtleback autobox



I'm curious about the model mentioned in the subject line. How easy/hard
is it to find? What sort of price is 'good'? I want to use this to do an
SAL AF2. What is the prototype for the model?

Frank Valoczy
New Westminster, BC

PS: Does anyone know if there exist decals for SAL's 25000-25499 series of
boxcars, for the silver livery with red lettering and "Silver Star"
slogan?




Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Sunshine Models 40' turtleback autobox

Bruce Smith
 

--- destron@... wrote:

I'm curious about the model mentioned in the subject line. How easy/hard
is it to find? What sort of price is 'good'? I want to use this to do an
SAL AF2. What is the prototype for the model?
On Wed, June 20, 2007 9:45 pm, cj riley wrote:
Are you referring to the Pennsy turtleback cars modified to carry Jeeps
(and
later, cars)"

I have built the kit recently, but fair value is in the eyes of the
"potential" buyer.
The PRR car was class X31F. In addition to the Sunshine kit, there is a
Bowser kit. Coincidentally, we'll be building X31s as our next project on
the PRRPro group, beginning around August 1st and the X31F is included in
that project.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL


Re: Sunshine Models 40' turtleback autobox

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

Are you referring to the Pennsy turtleback cars modified to carry Jeeps (and
later, cars)"

I have built the kit recently, but fair value is in the eyes of the "potential"
buyer.

CJ Riley


--- destron@... wrote:


I'm curious about the model mentioned in the subject line. How easy/hard
is it to find? What sort of price is 'good'? I want to use this to do an
SAL AF2. What is the prototype for the model?

Frank Valoczy
New Westminster, BC

PS: Does anyone know if there exist decals for SAL's 25000-25499 series of
boxcars, for the silver livery with red lettering and "Silver Star"
slogan?




____________________________________________________________________________________
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097


Re: A.C. Phelps Photographs

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Beckert, Shawn wrote:
Does anyone know what became of the photograph collection of A.C. Phelps, noted railroad photographer?
A few of Al's negatives were sold or traded after his death, but the great bulk of his work was purchased by Signature Press. The collection has been indexed on a CD, and the negatives can be printed or scanned as needed. A number of researchers have availed themselves of this.
That said, Signature Press is not in the photo business, and does not wish to take on large numbers of orders. Anyone with needs may communicate with me (off list).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


A.C. Phelps Photographs

Shawn Beckert
 

List,

Does anyone know what became of the photograph collection
of A.C. Phelps, noted railroad photographer?

Thanks,

Shawn Beckert


Re: Produce traffic on the : Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie - commodity origins

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Some comments in response to various posting on commodity origins


> That's what you would obviously expect if you look at who served the four
large produce areas of California.

Imperial Valley - SP only
San Joaquin Valley - SP, SF
Salinas Valley - SP only
Sacramento Valley - SP, WP
Do you have numbers for that Malcolm? I couldn't help but notice that
you left out the entire LA region, from the Simi Valley to Riverside and
Santa Ana and southwards to San Diego. This was the source of the
Santa Fe's citrus traffic, for example.

Tim O'


Good question Tim. I did some research on that yesterday. Here are the figures for 1999 from a state of Ca web site for the 11 counties with the largest agricultural production, with the largest perishable crops for each. It' interesting to note that only SP has access to the two counties that are the largest lettuce growing areas in the U.S. I doubt that the proportions were very different in the 50's.


1
Fresno
SP, SF
3559
Grapes
Tomatoes


2
Tulare
SP,SF
3075
Grapes
Oranges
Plums

3
Monterey
SP
2369
Lettuce
Broccoli
Strawberries

4
Kern
SP. SF
2128
Grapes
Citrus


5
Merced
SP,SF
1534
Tomatoes



6
San Joaquin
SP, SF. WP
1352
Grapes
Tomatoes
Cherries

7
San Diego
SF, ?SP
1242
A vocados



8
Stanislaus
SP, SF
1210
Tomatoes



9
R iverside
SP, SF, UP
1197
Table Grapes
Lemons


10
Ventura
SP
1059
Strawberries
Lemons
Celery
Oranges
11
Imperial
SP
1045
Lettuce
Carrots




Excludes: P oultry M ilk Cattle & Calves , Almonds C otton & P rocessed C ottonseed C hickens

> Grapes were primarily produced in Northern and Central California. This is the heart of PFE territory.

Looks to me like SF had equal access for table grapes.

> Cabbage, celery, lettuce and onions are primarily southern Califronia and Texas products an area served primarily by the SFRD.

Dead wrong on lettuce, which I believe was the largest crop.

> Bananas? The IC whips everyone with almost 30,000 loads, but those
eem to be going to the PRR, not the ERIE to move east .

IC bananas were from New Orleans to the midwest. Maybe PRR took them to Indianapolis.

Bananas for the east coast came through Baltimore, Philadelphia and New York and were distributed from there as far west as Detroit.

> Most if not all of the products where the Erie exceeded the car loads handled by the PRR originiate primarily in areas of the west served by the PFE. While the products where the PRR dominates originate in areas served by the SFRD or both the SFRD and PFE.

Look at the above tale and tell me where SF was dominant.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Sunshine Models 40' turtleback autobox

destron@...
 

I'm curious about the model mentioned in the subject line. How easy/hard
is it to find? What sort of price is 'good'? I want to use this to do an
SAL AF2. What is the prototype for the model?

Frank Valoczy
New Westminster, BC

PS: Does anyone know if there exist decals for SAL's 25000-25499 series of
boxcars, for the silver livery with red lettering and "Silver Star"
slogan?


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic - nastiness award, to Tony Tthompson

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

I admire your cynicism, Malcolm, but I really doubt this was
dominant. Yes, schmoozing was a factor, but performance mattered to
PFE:
-----------------

It's not cynicism. It' was a well known fact that railroad freight salesmen used their entertainment budgets to buy traffic. Salesment for the south Shore were reputed to have the largest expense account in the industry.

> those cargoes were perishable, remember. Of course, I realize YOUR
anecdotes are much more reliable than those of senior people at PFE.

I didn't offer any anneccdotes on reliability

That may have been their impression, but I know that in the case of
the NYC it was false. In the 50's and 60's we may not have been as
good as the Erie, but not for lack of trying. Don't know about PRR,
but wouldn't be surprised.
I don't know that PFE people were very interested in whether
NYC was trying or not--they just talked about performance.


If the service was as bad as you like to think, perishables wouldn't have been a major part of NYC's eastbound traffic out of Chicago and St. Louis.

You've also said that NYC didn't care about providing service for that traffic. That may have been the opinion of of managers at PFE, but that doesn't make it true. It's common in railfan circles to claim that a railroad doesn't care about something because of some perceived problem. But that's often untrue. the opinion of one group of people outside that company doesn't make it true.

NYC's service to the early morning produce market in 1949 was a 3:00 pm cutoff on the IHB 60 hours previously. By 1960 it was down to 48 hours. Hardly not trying. Also the NYC built its icing facility at Wayneport in that era.

I knwo that in the 60's we did quite well on service from Chicago to Boston and New York. The Erie was soemwhat better but not so much as to justify the implication that Erie service was good and NYC was bad. Maybe the PFE people were thinking about service to intermediate points which was much more problematiic.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic - freight claims

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

In the light of attempts to draw conclusions from freight claims numbers, I thought it might be useful to post this note about how the system worked.

> The terminating road usually gets the blame for perishables (hence the name). They tend to spoil fastest towards the end of their runs and since most had been in transit for a week by the time PRR got them from the west coast, what else would you expect?

It didn't actually work that way. Damage claims were apportioned among the railroads in the route, IIRC in proportion to mileage, unless it was demonstrable that one railroad caused the damage, which was unusual except in the case of market loss claims. The claim had to be filed by the owner of the damaged goods, usually the consignee, and was processed by the railroad rendering the freight bill, acting as agent for all of the participating railroads. Naturally the largest railroad has the largest claims bill, but a big part of that is those claims allocated to it by other railroads. The only way that you can tell whether one did better than another on perishables is if you can get a ratio of claims payments for perishables to the revenue from perishables.

Percent of revenue was the usaul yardstick in the 60's.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic - schedule sharing

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

When I was the supervisor of schedule information in the NYC marketing
department in 1965, I had the freight schedules of nearly 100 Class 1
railroads in my desk.

Where these shared by custom or agreement or did you have to "finagle" them?
KL
---------------------------

The sharing of freight schedules was an industry custom. Each railroad sent copies of its scheduels to most of the other rilroads each time there was a significant change. NYC's was a loose leaf book, as was PRR's. We made amonthly mailing of updated schedule pages. In addition to our own agencies, the mailing list included the other railroads.

All railroads had to be ready to advise any customer on the service scedule to any station on any railroad. We also used schedules to determine the number of cars that would be required for pool assignments, Ford engine blocks for example, based on the customers' projections of carloads to major destinations and the expected routing.

Schedule sharing was necessary for the system to work.

I had the ideal job for a 28 year old railfan interested in freight service.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic - schedule sharing

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

When I was the supervisor of schedule information in the NYC marketing
department in 1965, I had the freight schedules of nearly 100 Class 1
railroads in my desk.

Where these shared by custom or agreement or did you have to "finagle" them?
KL
---------------------------

The sharing of freight schedules was an industry custom. Each railroad sent copies of its scheduels to most of the other rilroads each time there was a significant change. NYC's was a loose leaf book, as was PRR's. We made amonthly mailing of updated schedule pages. In addition to our own agencies, the mailing list included the other railroads.

All railroads had to be ready to advise any customer on the service scedule to any station on any railroad. We also used schedules to determine the number of cars that would be required for pool assignments, Ford engine blocks for example, based on the customers' projections of carloads to major destinations and the expected routing.

Schedule sharing was necessary for the system to work.

I had the ideal job for a 28 year old railfan interested in freight service.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Wabash S/S Automobile Box Cars

pullmanboss <tgmadden@...>
 

P.S. By the way, Ted is now selling Pocahontas Models N&W box cars.
I think he may now own the product line.
Now that you mention it, I think he was selling them at Prototype
Rails last January.

Tom Madden


Re: UP Lettering Color Change

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 20, 2007, at 1:32 PM, parkvarieties wrote:

Approximately what year did the Union Pacific begin repainting their
steel box cars with all-yellow lettering? Thanks.
Frank Brua
June, 1947.

Richard Hendrickson

131941 - 131960 of 195521