Date   

Re: UP Lettering Color Change

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 20, 2007, at 1:32 PM, parkvarieties wrote:

Approximately what year did the Union Pacific begin repainting their
steel box cars with all-yellow lettering? Thanks.
Frank Brua
June, 1947.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Paul <buygone@...>
 

Garth:



Working in Southern California the WP did not come into play with me. I
would guess that on traffic that originated on the WP they were allowed by
PFE to take their long haul. In southern Cal we did not interface at all
with the WP people. Where as the PFE offices were in the Pacific Electric
building along with all of the Southern Pacific offices.



Paul



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Garth G. Groff
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 11:04 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic



Paul,

How did the WP management fit into this planning? They were a member PFE
until 1967.

Kind regards,

Garth G. Groff

Paul wrote:
Russ:



I would guess that you don't understand the relationship between the PFE
and
its two owners the Southern Pacific and the Union Pacific. As a former
Southern Pacific Traffic officer we used the PFE agents to solicit the
perishable traffic, the PFE agents we very familiar with all agreements
between the two railroads and eliminated any shorthaul soliciting. There
was no undermining of established routes by the PFE agents. They were
invited to our staff meetings as we were to theirs. This freed up some of
our time to go after other lucrative traffic. I hope this helps you
understand the relationship between the PFE and its two owners better, we
were one big team in the perishable business.



Paul C. Koehler


Re: Wabash S/S Automobile Box Cars

Tim O'Connor
 

Indeed! Talking with Ted at Collinsville I learned there are multiple
WIDTHS as well as other features of these Wabash box cars -- Not
a homogeneous set of cars at all. And I believe Ted intends to do
several different cars. (I don't think even Ted could do all of them.)

Tim

P.S. By the way, Ted is now selling Pocahontas Models N&W box cars.
I think he may now own the product line.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
On Jun 20, 2007, at 11:38 AM, wabash2813 wrote:

What's the status on "them-there" HO versions what someone was supposed
to come out with? (I'm not referrring to F&C). Are they available yet?
Coming very soon from Speedwitch. I've seen a photo of a finished
pilot model and it is very impressive.

Richard Hendrickson


UP Lettering Color Change

parkvarieties <parkvarieties@...>
 

Approximately what year did the Union Pacific begin repainting their
steel box cars with all-yellow lettering? Thanks.
Frank Brua


Re: Wabash S/S Automobile Box Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jun 20, 2007, at 11:38 AM, wabash2813 wrote:

What's the status on "them-there" HO versions what someone was supposed
to come out with? (I'm not referrring to F&C). Are they available yet?
Coming very soon from Speedwitch. I've seen a photo of a finished
pilot model and it is very impressive.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Garth Groff asked:
How did the WP management fit into this planning? They were a member PFE until 1967.
I would be interested to hear Paul's answer too.
The PFE people I interviewed were always careful to include WP in any traffic discussion, as the PFE forces were responsible for providing a fair and balanced car supply to all three railroads, UP, SP and WP. But the plain fact was that UP and SP were the "parent railroads" and determined many aspects of policy and performance. WP was a contractual participant, not an owner. I don't know that the PFE agents in WP territory had the same latitude as they did on SP and UP.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Wabash S/S Automobile Box Cars

wabash2813 <vbaird@...>
 

What's the status on "them-there" HO versions what someone was supposed
to come out with? (I'm not referrring to F&C). Are they available yet?

Thanks in advance
Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Russ Strodtz <sheridan@...>
 

Paul,

That is interesting but of course I only saw what came
off the SP/UP and had no idea of what their inner workings
were.

That concept contrasts greatly with the roads I'm more
familiar with. The NP did not have a refrigerator car
owning subsidiary, they got by with their own fleet and
the loosely associated NRC fleet which in later years was
filled out with MDT's.

While the GN had WFE I think they stuck to the servicing
and repair of cars and I doubt were much involved in traffic.

As to the CB&Q, again BRE did the servicing and repair, but
I just can't imagine the GST's office giving them any control
at all. The NX,MNX, & PCX's did not even belong to BRE but they
did repair and service them in common with the cars they did
own.

CB&Q did have it's own Agricultural Department but they provided
possible shippers with all kinds of information. They did not
target perishable traffic.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: Paul
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Wednesday, 20 June, 2007 12:09
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic


Russ:



I would guess that you don't understand the relationship between
the PFE and
its two owners the Southern Pacific and the Union Pacific. As a
former
Southern Pacific Traffic officer we used the PFE agents to
solicit the
perishable traffic, the PFE agents we very familiar with all
agreements
between the two railroads and eliminated any shorthaul
soliciting. There
was no undermining of established routes by the PFE agents.
They were
invited to our staff meetings as we were to theirs. This freed
up some of
our time to go after other lucrative traffic. I hope this helps
you
understand the relationship between the PFE and its two owners
better, we
were one big team in the perishable business.



Paul C. Koehler


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Paul,

How did the WP management fit into this planning? They were a member PFE until 1967.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Paul wrote:

Russ:


I would guess that you don't understand the relationship between the PFE and
its two owners the Southern Pacific and the Union Pacific. As a former
Southern Pacific Traffic officer we used the PFE agents to solicit the
perishable traffic, the PFE agents we very familiar with all agreements
between the two railroads and eliminated any shorthaul soliciting. There
was no undermining of established routes by the PFE agents. They were
invited to our staff meetings as we were to theirs. This freed up some of
our time to go after other lucrative traffic. I hope this helps you
understand the relationship between the PFE and its two owners better, we
were one big team in the perishable business.


Paul C. Koehler


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Paul <buygone@...>
 

Russ:



I would guess that you don't understand the relationship between the PFE and
its two owners the Southern Pacific and the Union Pacific. As a former
Southern Pacific Traffic officer we used the PFE agents to solicit the
perishable traffic, the PFE agents we very familiar with all agreements
between the two railroads and eliminated any shorthaul soliciting. There
was no undermining of established routes by the PFE agents. They were
invited to our staff meetings as we were to theirs. This freed up some of
our time to go after other lucrative traffic. I hope this helps you
understand the relationship between the PFE and its two owners better, we
were one big team in the perishable business.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Wednesday, June 20, 2007 9:29 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic



Russ Strodtz wrote:
I fail to understand the concept of a refrigerator car company having
"Agents" who contacted Customers. To what purpose? Were they
undermining the Railroad Agent who in fact was the only person that
could legally speak for the Railroad?
The PFE agent was the expert on the perishable tariff and was
responsible for local car supply. Of course the railroad delivered the
car(s) to the shipper's siding, but the car movements were directed by
PFE forces. The PFE agent also was responsible for making sure of
future car supply, so worked with both growers and shippers (and with
his superiors at PFE) to predict upcoming car needs. They even worked
with local agricultural agents to assist with grower needs. They also
advised shippers about icing specifications and needs in particular
seasons, etc. There are numerous anecdotes about this relationship in
the PFE book if you care to look.
Your description, Russ, of a somewhat adversarial relationship
with a shipper does not sound much like anything I ever heard from the
PFE people I interviewed. Of course, they were speaking of a different
era. They also may have been forgetting the negatives <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturep
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com> ress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Event Announcements

golden1014
 

Gentlemen,

We're about ten days out from publishing the first
issue of The Seaboard-Coast Line Modeler on-line
magazine on the ACL & SAL Historical Society website.
Are there any Southeastern-oriented events or RPM
events you'd like to advertise in the magazine? If
so, please contact me at Golden1014@... and
we'll get it in.

PLEASE make it easy for me and use the following
format (or something close to it):

November 4, Gaithersburg, Md. � 29th Gaithersburg
Railroad Transportation Artifacts Show & Sale,
Montgomery County Fairgrounds. Hours 9:00 to 4:00.
Details: Charlie Miller, 3106 N. Rochester St.,
Arlington, VA 22213-1348, (703) 536-2954,
rrshows@..., web site www.gserr.com.

Note: We'll advertise for all RPM meets, no matter the
location.

Thanks!

John




John Golden
O'Fallon, IL

http://www.pbase.com/golden1014


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Russ Strodtz wrote:
I fail to understand the concept of a refrigerator car company having "Agents" who contacted Customers. To what purpose? Were they undermining the Railroad Agent who in fact was the only person that could legally speak for the Railroad?
The PFE agent was the expert on the perishable tariff and was responsible for local car supply. Of course the railroad delivered the car(s) to the shipper's siding, but the car movements were directed by PFE forces. The PFE agent also was responsible for making sure of future car supply, so worked with both growers and shippers (and with his superiors at PFE) to predict upcoming car needs. They even worked with local agricultural agents to assist with grower needs. They also advised shippers about icing specifications and needs in particular seasons, etc. There are numerous anecdotes about this relationship in the PFE book if you care to look.
Your description, Russ, of a somewhat adversarial relationship with a shipper does not sound much like anything I ever heard from the PFE people I interviewed. Of course, they were speaking of a different era. They also may have been forgetting the negatives <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Loaded SFRD's in a UP train

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Mike,
Why is that a "Generally accepted belief"?
Russ.

Interesting. For those not aware, the generally accepted belief [ and I don't question it ]
is that UP did not see many loaded SFRD reefers and that the ATSF did not
see many loaded PFE reefers.
=================

I don't think we have to get into beliefs for this. There's a very simple logic. SP furnished its customers with PFE reefers. ATSF furnished SFRD cars. So it was natural that SFRD cars were a small percentage of UP traffic and v.v. But there were interline routes via junctions in CA. SP and SF of course discourage their use and using such routes probably added a day or two to the transit time, but they were used. And then there is the customer receiving cars from both roads and not billing each car via the road that furnished the car.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: Loaded SFRD's in a UP train

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "tgregmrtn@..." No Tim, Just routed ATSF-STKTN-WP- OGDN-UP-OMH- CNW-CHGO_ FF as I have said, just a bridge to Chicago... No direct routing... 3^) a shippers routing I would suppose... I guess the Santa FE Field agents "glad hands" were just no FULL enough... 3^)

Greg Martin
==============

That brings to mind something else in the service equation. There six possible carriers in that OMH-.....-CHGO. Each of them had different connection patterns at Chicago. I do know that the connections from C&NW and MILW to NYC were excellent. I don't know which had the best connections to the Erie or PRR, but I'm sure there were differences.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: NYC Freight Schedule Book For Sale

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

I'm sorely tempted to buy it just to find out which NYC auto-parts
trains connected with the Cotton Belt at East St. Louis during
this period, but in fairness I think one of the NYC people on the
list will get more use out of it.
=================

I can help with that, if the jailer will briefly sit on the keys. I have the 1967 book. I first saw the NYC Through Freight Schedules when I had my first operating department job in 1960 and saw most of the revisions until 1967. It wasn't much different from 1960 and the late 50's which does get us back into the STMFC era. The big difference was in traffic handled in long cars unmentionable on this list.

There was no such thing as an "auto-parts train", but there were a few trains in which the preponderance of auto parts moved. They came from all over Ohio, Michigan and Indiana, so couldn't really be whole trains.

Cars from Detroit moved in DSL-1 leavinf at 8:00A arriving at Big Four Yard at 10:30P. This train had only an Indianapolis block and picked up at Monroe and Bellefontaine. Cars to the SSW moved in NCB-1 leaving at 7:00A and blocked
1. Pine Bluff and beyond via A&S-SSW
1A. Cut Caboose
2. A&S other than group 1.

Cars from Cleveland would be in A/BF-3 arriving at 9:30P.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: IC H2A hopper

Charlie Vlk
 

Chet-
Thanks and Good Hunting!!!
Charlie


Charlie,

I am one of several people searching for a photo of one of these
cars. A few photos of the Dixon INU power plant in the 1940's
appeared in our local paper over the weekend. In one photo showing
four or five IC hopper cars in front of the plant, it appears that
one of the cars could be one of the leased N&W cars. I am in the
process of tracking down the owner of the photos.

Chet French
Dixon, IL

.


Underframe and truck colors for N&W boxcar

Mark Heiden
 

Hello everyone,

I've got a model of a Norfolk & Western B-1 steel boxcar ready for
painting. A prototype photo of this car can be found at:

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/nw46146main.html

This model will be finished as a car repainted shortly after World War
Two. Does anyone know what color the underframe would have been
painted, and if the trucks were painted the same color as the rest of
the car?

Thanks,
Mark Heiden


Great Northern 50 Foot 4 Youngstown Door Boxcars with Medallion Hearlds

gary laakso
 

The current issue of the Great Northern Railway Historical Society's quarterly publication includes Reference Sheet No. 341. The cover sheet from the early spring of 1932 shows not only a NYC express reefer in the Fast Mail but a Great Northern 50 foot outside braced boxcar with 4 Youngstown doors. It is next to a similar car with the door and a half Camel doors. Next to that car, is a wood double sheathed boxcar with camel door and a half. It is numbered 38390.

On the car with the double Youngstown doors, the left door has a medallion with the full face Great Northern herald on it. Not many Great Northern boxcars received medallion heralds! I knew there was a reason that I had not completed my Westerfield kit for this car. Now to find more rationales for other uncompleted kits!


gary laakso
south of Mike Brock's bunker
vasa0vasa@...


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., SUVCWORR@... wrote:

Did the PFE act as agent for shippers? Did the railroads ever act as
agent?

I ask this because there were a number of fruit and produce auction
houses
in the east. The PRR (ducking) operated auction houses in Pittsburgh,
Baltimore and Philadelphia that I know about. Train schedules
required the cars to
be spotted at the auction house in Pittsburgh by 2:00 AM. The auction
commenced at 3:00 AM and was concluded by 6:00 AM at the latest so
the buyers could
get the product out for delivery. I can't imagine PRR buying the
loads for
auction. (OK some of them may have been partially damaged loads
and the
railroad was selling to cut their costs.) The auction house was a
billable
destination.

Rich Orr
No. The railroad owned auction house was simply space the railroad
provided where the shipper or broker (his agent) could display their
wares while the auctioneer "negotiated" a sale with the buyer. The
railroad did not take ownership of the load.

Dennis


Re: Muncie & Western boxcar destinations?

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

Kurt,

I'm not sure how the grocery store distribution network worked in the WWII era but I doubt our country had the infrastructure to handle nationwaide distribtution of canning jars by truck. I would think that the carloads went to grocery distribtion houses and they were shipped out in smaller lots by LCL rail and LTL truck.

Mont Switzer

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: Mont Switzer

The primary market for the Ball Brothers Glass Manufacturing Company of
Muncie, IN was the home canning market. The jars as well as other canning
accessories manufactured by Ball were sold in grocery stores. After WWII the
company expanded into other types of glass and ultimately aluminum and
plastic contrianers. You can still buy Ball glass canning jars today at
supermarkets, drug stores and the big box stores.

----- Original Message -----

Thanks Mont. I didn't realize home canning was that large post-WWII, plus I
would've thought that small-unit commodities like cased jars would've moved
to trucks very quickly.

KL






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