Date   

New Walthers Rolling Stock

Bob Chaparro <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

In the August MODEL RAILROADER (Page 3) Walthers is advertising General
American meat reefers and Mather stock cars. Apparently, these are
previously issued cars with new road names and car numbers.

Are these cars prototypically accurate as to road names and car
numbers? Are the cars themselves reasonably accurate representations
of the prototypes?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA


Re: Kaolinite and China

Greg Martin
 

In a message dated 6/27/2007 9:15:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
prrinvt@yahoo.com writes:

Guyz,

The PRR served the Homer Laughlin China and E M Knowles China Co in Newell
WV. They appear in the CT1000 for 1945

Fred Freitas


Dang it Fred I was out of town on business in the LA Basin and returned this
evening only to find you answered my question... Thanks Fred 3^)

GIZE, Next time you all are traveling and you have lunch at an old
diner/cafe and you see one of those old heavy white coffee mugs , check the bottom for
the label, chances are you might fine a good one like my cherished Sterling
China (or also a Hall China). If you do might get lucky and have a keeper...
They are fairly common. I have a set of a mug, creamer and tea pot (the Tea
pot and creamer I have came from a diner in Tehachapi, CA where I lived prior
to moving to Salem, OR) and talk the owner into selling it to you.

When I was a kid growing up the Men in most East Liverpool neighborhoods
would toss porcelain door knobs like cow-pokes pitch horse shoes only the
difference was the ringers were tossed into a tobacco/coffee cans, quite a skill
and fun to watch...

These types of items would be very commonly shipped by rail throughout the
country and in boxcars (mandatory freight car content) in barrels or crates...


Greg Martin



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


CN Series #659000-65999 Steel Flat Car #659000-65999

Paul Lyons
 

Guys,

I hace one of Point 1 Models CN #659000-659999 resin flat car kits that I am looking to start. I only have one poor quality photo of this car, but the stake pockets sure do not look like the Tichy ones provided in the kit. Can anyone either tell me what is the correct stake pocket, or can someone share a good scan of this car so I can make a more intelligent decision as to what is correct.

Any and all help is appreicated.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA?
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


C&NW Stock Car Images

Bob Chaparro <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

Courtesy of Ron Christensen, here is a link to images of C&NW stock
cars originally posted on the Railway Bull Shippers Group:

http://www.cnwhs.org/articles/1183073558.pdf

Bob Chaparro
Moderator
Railway Bull Shippers Group


Re: sewer pipes

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, rrfaned@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/28/2007 2:53:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
ed_mines@... writes:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

Clay was used for sanitary sewers. Cast iron pipe was typically
used for
transmission of water.
Except when used in buildings and other above grade (not buried)
applications. Clay pipe is just too fragile to use where it won't be
buried. Typical use in Chicago during the steam era was 4", 6", and 8"
C.I. pipe used for DWV (Drain, Waste, and Vent) within the building,
changing to similar sized clay where it went through the basement
floor or foundation wall. This was all "bell & spigot" pipe, the
straight end, the spigot, fit into the larger diameter bell and was
sealed with oakum and mortar for clay pipe; lead for C.I. In recent
years rubber gaskets have been developed for C.I. pipe and lead is not
used any longer.

What is lacking is information on the length of these pipes. I don't
ever remember seeing clay pipe any longer than 3', which made for a
lot of joints. C.I was available in 5' and 10' lengths, at least in
the smaller sizes. Large water service pipe was available in 20'
lengths, and maybe longer.

There was / is also a hubless clay pipe available in about 2' lengths
for use as drain tile; this was laid with the joints slightly open and
a layer of gravel for perimeter drains outside of foundations.

All these products were reasonably fragile, and would be palletized
after WWII, except for the largest sizes, which would be stacked on
blocking in gons.

Clay pipe was glazed and fired, and was a glossy medium brown or
reddish brown. Drain tile was not glazed, and was more or less the
color of flower pots. Cast iron was dipped in something at manufacture
that made it shiny black.

Dennis


Re: sewer pipes

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

Train Shed Cyc No 36 (1919) includes loading diagrans for cast iron, wrought
iron and concrete pipes in flats and gons. I'm sure Ive seen clay pipes in both
gons and box cars.

CJ Riley

--- rrfaned@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 6/28/2007 2:53:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
ed_mines@yahoo.com writes:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

Clay was used for sanitary sewers. Cast iron pipe was typically used for
transmission of water.



What were the most common sizes? Colors?
Clay pipe is typically reddish brown. Think earth tone because that's what
it is. Clay pipe comes in many sizes. 4, 6, 8,10, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 30
and 36 inch. However any size larger than 12 to 15 inches in diameter would

be fairly uncommon.
Cast iron pipe is usually black in color. It is/was available in the same
sizes as clay pipe. 8, 10 and 12 inch diameter pipe is quite common in
municipal water systems. Larger sizes, 24, 30 and 36 inch pipe, is found
more
frequently in water systems than in sanitary sewer collection systems.



Any reason why they couldn't be loaded into gons?

None that I can think of. Clay pipe was typically cast in 4 or 5 foot
lengths while cast iron pipe was cast in 10 foot or greater lengths.



Ed


Ed Dabler, P.E.



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.







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Re: sewer pipes

Raymond Young
 

Hello,

During the '40s to about 1965, there was a petroleum-based sewer pipe called Orangeburg. It was cheaper than cast iron, but it was a poor substitute. It lacked the rigidity and strength of cast iron. It sagged, allowed tree roots to enter the joints easily and seemed to be the material of choice for most contractors. Most building codes have outlawed its use in tha last 40 years. It was about 6 inches in diameter and had a rusty tan color. I'm sure it was shipped in gons and on flats. Rejoice that it's gone.

Virgil Young
Amarillo, TX

Bruce Smith <smithbf@auburn.edu> wrote:

On Jun 28, 2007, at 2:52 PM, ed_mines wrote:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

What were the most common sizes? Colors?
How about octagonal wooden pipes? A WWII war emergency program built
wooden pipe in a wide variety of sizes.
Steel pipe - thousands of gon loads of 24" and 20" pipe went into the
building of the "big inch" and "little inch" pipelines in 1942-43.

Any reason why they couldn't be loaded into gons?
None, of course.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: sewer pipes

Bruce Smith
 

On Jun 28, 2007, at 2:52 PM, ed_mines wrote:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

What were the most common sizes? Colors?
How about octagonal wooden pipes? A WWII war emergency program built wooden pipe in a wide variety of sizes.
Steel pipe - thousands of gon loads of 24" and 20" pipe went into the building of the "big inch" and "little inch" pipelines in 1942-43.

Any reason why they couldn't be loaded into gons?
None, of course.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


sewer pipes

ed_mines
 

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

What were the most common sizes? Colors?

Any reason why they couldn't be loaded into gons?


Ed


damaged gons

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " The PRR
apparently had lots of really old or significantly damaged gons

The standard railroad of the world? Really?

I's like to see some photos of barely usable steam era gons.

Ed


Re: sewer pipes

Charles Hladik
 

Rust-O-Leum "Terra Cotta" spray paint is a perfect match for clay (terra
cotta) pipes, Spanish tile roofs also.
Chuck Hladik



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


Re: Crew gratuities (was Citrus Traffic) now gon hoarding by crews

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Guys;



In that vein, I used to operate my layout (until recently, in fact) in a
manner similar to what I was told they did at many yards on the PRR in the
Pgh area, which included this exact issue. I was told that the PRR
consistently "hoarded" gons, and in fact, that crews that regularly switched
certain industries (USSteel being one) had a regular standing order for more
gons than the PRR could provide, with certain types (65' being one) in higher
demand. This resulted in situation where assemblages of gons were "stashed"
at small yards and sidings throughout the area, to be pulled when called on
by these industries. The industry reps would then cull the gons for those
they considered acceptable or not acceptable, based on the particular type of
load they were shipping. The PRR apparently had lots of really old or
significantly damaged gons that these reps turned down, which would then be
recycled back into the larger group of gons for re-consideration or for
consideration by another industry that used gons. Obviously, the gons the
scrap industry got were the worst examples of gon ever seen by any railroad,
since we are talking about both the largest and most decrepit gon fleet in
the nation, being used by a group of folks (I am only referring to then and
there) that purposely bashed magnets into the gons in an effort to destroy
them. Jack Consoli and I both remember the resulting outline of gons in
fallen rust chips found on the ground after these crews had dropped magnets
from 20 feet into the floor of a gon.



I personally remember gons sitting on sidings that had bashed out sides,
bashed out or missing ends, bashed through or even burned through floors, and
even some that had been turned down so many times they had been
semi-permanently parked in a siding and allowed to grow a forest in their
interior. There were some that had had ties or other things tossed across
the floor to disguise the lack of a viable floor, or act as a barrier to
things falling through. I even remember one that had obviously been torched
as a result of a hot coil load being placed on a treated, but probably tinder
dry wooden floor, which had charred floor timbers and blackened sides with
blistered paint at the periphery. But occasionally, one of these
end-of-the-line gons (perhaps not the latter example) would disappear, only
to pass by later with a load in it. Those that believe these gons were bad
ordered the instant they were spotted with a defect are kidding themselves.



I know there are some that doubt that steam-era gons looked this way, or pass
it off with a "pooh pooh, that was the Pennsy" like that makes it dismissable
from the reality, but we are talking many, many gons from all sorts of roads.
And, there are pics that show the miserable condition these gons were in! No
wonder they had to collect and hoard them!



I am gradually building my fleet of gons that vary from awful to brand-new,
and I hope I will closely replicate both the visual and operational reality
of that era and locale (sans the magnet treatment).



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Russ
Strodtz
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:13 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Crew gratuities (was Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus
Traffic)



Tim,

I could easily say that the problem was that he came to the same conclusion
as you did.

Let's move this more toward modeling. Switching and Belt type roads are
usually net users of gons. While the Roadhaul Roads will fill orders for
their own business they will not create a car supply for a Switching Road's
internal needs. At this time period IHB owned no gons at all but their
daily
orders could be in the hundreds. This Shipper could have loaded those cars
in two days if the scrap price was right. They would have probably all have
gone to Inland Steel at an Intraterminal Switch Charge of around $300.00
each. If Inland liked the condition of any they would have probably held
them for loading. That's another clang of the cash register.

In essence he was making a cost/benefit decision without being in a position
to know it's implications. While the volume on a Switching or Belt Road
looks good that is not what pays the bills. Overhead traffic was cheap. The
big money was/is in Intraterminal Switches.

I doubt the kickbacks went higher up the chain but on a road like that the
General Manager knows exactly what he is getting for every move. I'm
sure the crews knew the tolerance level for gon hoarding and were probably
aware of the scrap prices. I know I used to look at them almost every day.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: <timboconnor@comcast.net <mailto:timboconnor%40comcast.net> >
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June, 2007 11:21
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Crew gratuities (was Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus
Traffic)


But why was he dismissed? Car rental (per diem) on 30 gondolas has
to be quite a lot of money. Surely someone at the railroad pays that bill?
The trainee was trying to save the RR a lot of money. Or did the kickbacks
go higher up the chain?

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Russ Strodtz" <sheridan@rrwebhost.com
<mailto:sheridan%40rrwebhost.com> >

Pielet Brothers had a auto scrap shredder
in Argo IL. One weekend a new Trainmaster Trainee from PC got told to
cover that location for a weekend. There were over 30 empty gons in the
yard and no one would explain why they were there. He had them all
shipped out of town. Pielet was paying a number of crews a sizable
amount
for a good car supply. That Monday the Trainmaster Trainee was
dismissed.


Re: sewer pipes

Edward Dabler
 

In a message dated 6/28/2007 2:53:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
ed_mines@yahoo.com writes:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

Clay was used for sanitary sewers. Cast iron pipe was typically used for
transmission of water.



What were the most common sizes? Colors?
Clay pipe is typically reddish brown. Think earth tone because that's what
it is. Clay pipe comes in many sizes. 4, 6, 8,10, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 30
and 36 inch. However any size larger than 12 to 15 inches in diameter would
be fairly uncommon.
Cast iron pipe is usually black in color. It is/was available in the same
sizes as clay pipe. 8, 10 and 12 inch diameter pipe is quite common in
municipal water systems. Larger sizes, 24, 30 and 36 inch pipe, is found more
frequently in water systems than in sanitary sewer collection systems.



Any reason why they couldn't be loaded into gons?

None that I can think of. Clay pipe was typically cast in 4 or 5 foot
lengths while cast iron pipe was cast in 10 foot or greater lengths.



Ed


Ed Dabler, P.E.



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


Re: Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus Traffic - eASTBOUND

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "Russ Strodtz" I posted a factual record of a days business Eastbound. Did anyone count
the number of ERIE car compared to the other roads? Actually I was rather
surprised at the volume of PRR meat. In later years this traffic seems to have moved
to the NYC.
=============

I must have missed that factual record amongst all the noise Russ. Where can I find it - if a posting, about when ?

I would expect to see some shift of service sensitive traffic to the NYC in the late 50's because that's when they made a major schedule rearrangement to move traffic faster.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: A curious aspect in the Delano photo

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Kurt;

Sorry, I only have this data from a report on improving operations in the
immediate Pgh area. The report was undoubtedly done to try to improve
gridlock caused by the upsurge during WW1. I wish I had this data for my
era! Alas, that part has to be slowly assembled from other sources.



Elden



________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kurt
Laughlin
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 8:48 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] A curious aspect in the Delano photo

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD

Just for those interested, the PRR on the Monongahela Division/Branch alone
(which did not include the big Pgh freight houses, only the small local
operations), hosted 35 freight "station delivery" operations in August 1918,
with 1,444 carloads in and 468 carloads out, for these small freight houses.
This fell to only 14 freight houses by 1962. Even one of them would make for
a really interesting shelf layout!

----- Original Message -----

Elden, where can you find traffic info like this? You wouldn't happen have
anything on any of the Beaver County branches, would you?

KL


Re: PRR freight stations, was A curious aspect in the Delano photo

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Yes, very interesting. I have individual station figures, and some of the
really small and out of the way stations took in only a handful; others got
hundreds; however, keep in mind none of these were the big freight stations
we are used to seeing data on. They were just the run-of-the-mill little
neighborhood operations, mostly one-story, two short tracks, and spots for
only 8 cars or less.



Another thing that really interested me was how close together within Pgh
some of the freight stations were. In some cases, only a mile or two apart.
For example, there was a Carson Street Freight Station at about 6th St, then
another slightly larger one at 23rd, plus the much larger ones right across
the river, and the private one (Pgh Terminal) at 8th. Or, 35 stations for
the approx. 50-mile branch.



The final thing that interested me about the data was the lack of many
separate team tracks. I take it that the PRR did not particularly like them.



Take care,



Elden Gatwood



________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Schuyler Larrabee
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 9:24 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] PRR freight stations, was A curious aspect in the Delano
photo

-----Original Message-----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
Just for those interested, the PRR on the Monongahela
Division/Branch alone
(which did not include the big Pgh freight houses, only the
small local
operations), hosted 35 freight "station delivery" operations
in August 1918,
with 1,444 carloads in and 468 carloads out, for these small
freight houses.
This fell to only 14 freight houses by 1962. Even one of them
would make for
a really interesting shelf layout!
Yes, Elden, interesting. 1444 inbound for 35 stations works out to ~41 per
station, less that one
weekly. Clearly, some were more busy than others, so some stations were
probably at one car per
month. As much as I do like to think that "everything" came by rail, for one
car per month, the
investment in siding, building, agent (maybe), and maintenance . . . . seems
hard to believe this is
all economically justifiable. And the fall to 14 is probably a reflection of
which houses were
busy, and which were not.

SGL


Re: boxcars with hatches

Brian Paul Ehni <behni@...>
 

You wouldn¹t know it from his site! 8^)
--
Thanks!

Brian Ehni



From: Steve and Barb Hile <shile@mindspring.com>
Reply-To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2007 23:05:06 -0500
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [STMFC] boxcars with hatches





On the Rock Island, it was bulk flour. In 1956, 57 and 58, they converted
just over 40 forty foot boxcars (built in 1940) to carry bulk flour. This
included a pair of round roof hatches near the center of the car and a
covered opening in the lower LH corner of each side with a removable cover
to allow the insertion of an auger for unloading (I believe with the car up
on a tipping table.) The car was lined with sprayed in material over
fiberglass netting.

Ross Dando, dba Twin Star Cars, makes a simple resin conversion kit for
these cars (47000 - 47041) containing castings for the roof hatches and the
unloading covers. The cost is $5.50 for two cars plus $6.50 shipping. He
also has a kit with a set of Kato freight trucks and casting to create a
Chrysler FR-5E truck.

His email is

rsdando@mindspring.com <mailto:rsdando%40mindspring.com>

His website is

http://www.twinstarcars.com/

but it does not yet show these new offerings.

Regards,
Steve Hile


Re: boxcars with hatches

Steve and Barb Hile
 

On the Rock Island, it was bulk flour. In 1956, 57 and 58, they converted just over 40 forty foot boxcars (built in 1940) to carry bulk flour. This included a pair of round roof hatches near the center of the car and a covered opening in the lower LH corner of each side with a removable cover to allow the insertion of an auger for unloading (I believe with the car up on a tipping table.) The car was lined with sprayed in material over fiberglass netting.

Ross Dando, dba Twin Star Cars, makes a simple resin conversion kit for these cars (47000 - 47041) containing castings for the roof hatches and the unloading covers. The cost is $5.50 for two cars plus $6.50 shipping. He also has a kit with a set of Kato freight trucks and casting to create a Chrysler FR-5E truck.

His email is

rsdando@mindspring.com

His website is

http://www.twinstarcars.com/

but it does not yet show these new offerings.

Regards,
Steve Hile


Re: Underframe and truck colors for N&W boxcar

Walter M. Clark
 

Mark,

I have the Pocahontas Models B-4/B-4A HO kit, and the prototype info
included only says "(a)ll of these cars were painted Freight Car Color
No. 11, the standard house car color." There are some b&w photos of
the completed model and from these it appears that the underframe is
painted the same color as the carbody. It appears that the trucks are
black. While there isn't anything specific in the narrative, the
trucks "are" darker than the carbody and underframe in the photos. Of
course conjecture should be replaced by information, but it's been a
week since you posted your question and I haven't seen an answer yet.
You could email pocahontasmodels@comcast.net and ask him (Jim Brewer).

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Heiden" <mark_heiden@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

I've got a model of a Norfolk & Western B-1 steel boxcar ready for
painting. A prototype photo of this car can be found at:

http://www.steamfreightcars.com/gallery/boxauto/nw46146main.html

This model will be finished as a car repainted shortly after World War
Two. Does anyone know what color the underframe would have been
painted, and if the trucks were painted the same color as the rest of
the car?

Thanks,
Mark Heiden


Re: Crew gratuities

Jared Harper <harper-brown@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Madden" <tgmadden@...> wrote:

Dick Bale asked:
At what point does a gratuity become a bride?
That's called a dowry, which is money flowing _from_ the bride (or
the
bride's family). I guess it's a gratuity, in the sense that it's for
services (to be) rendered.
Who is paying this gratuity? If the bride brings the money with her at
marriage it is a dowry. If it is a payment from the groom's family to
the wife's family it is bride price.
Jared Harper
Athens, GA

128921 - 128940 of 192701