Date   
Re: sewer pipes

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ed Mines wrote:
I've heard that cast iron pipes were shipped in P&LE and PYMcY (Al Westerfield calls this RR P mickey)gons. How about PRR gons?
Rails in the Pittsburgh area always called it the "Pee Mickey" when I lived there.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

sewer pipes

ed_mines
 

I think any kind of merchandise light enough to be lifted by a man
would be prone to be stolen if shipped in a gondola.

I think any kind of sewer pipe would have a relatively thick wall
making lengths of the larger sizes (say 10 or 12 inches in diameter and
above) pretty difficult for a man to lift, particularly over the side
of a typical gon.

I've heard that cast iron pipes were shipped in P&LE and PYMcY (Al
Westerfield calls this RR P mickey)gons. How about PRR gons?

Where were clay sewer pipes made?

Did these pipes have to be blocked? I would think that cast iron pipes
would be robust enough to avoid damage without blocking.

A few years ago the neighborhood when I live had new storm sewers
installed. A man can crawl through the concrete sewer pipes. I live
above the east extension of the Grand Coulie damn.

Ed

C&NW Stock Cars

ed_mines
 

Those CNW stock cars are my favorites. Thanks Bob!

These stock cars frequently appear in Jack Delano photos in the
WWII "Iron Horse at War" book.

The end of these cars is missing a slat, making them look unusual to
me.

Does anyone know what type of roof these cars had? There's a photo
article about stock yard at the CNW site which shows what I think is
an early Hutcheons roof with 2 reinforcement creases instead on the
usual one. Was this the type used on these stock cars?

The aforementioned roof was used on CNW's single sheathed box cars
built in the '20s with USRA ribs but shorter than USRA cars. Sunshine
offers (or offered) a kit for those cars.

Ed

Here's the original link -

--- In STMFC@..., "Bob Chaparro" <thecitrusbelt@...>
wrote:
Courtesy of Ron Christensen, here is a link to images of C&NW stock
cars originally posted on the Railway Bull Shippers Group:

http://www.cnwhs.org/articles/1183073558.pdf

Re: sewer pipes

Jim Betz
 

In the early 50's in my home town (a small town North of Seattle) my
neighborhood was upgraded to city sewers. Before that all the houses in
the neighborhood were on septic tanks. Large (3 ft?) concrete pipe came
into town in gons and was transferred to trucks for local transit. In
addition, each house was connected up to the new sewer running down the
street using smaller pipe that was probably about 8" in diameter or so.
I'm guessing that the size of the pipe was related to the mains also acting
as part of the storm drain system - we are talking Western Washington
here.
The crews putting in the mains finally had to take to pushing a dozer
blade load of dirt over the open end of the pipe each day to keep the
kids (like me) from playing in the new pipes after they knocked off for
the day. Then every morning they would uncover that end and go after it
some more.
I remember that they would do one or two blocks a day - but I could be
wrong on that. This was a big project that converted a lot of houses
from septic to sewer. There was an assessment to each house on the
street and I remember my folks grumbling about being required to pay the
assessment whether they connected up or not. But it was all done over
time and the connection to the house was cheap enough and it did make
things in the neighborhood better.

D&H decals

Thomas Baker
 

I followed Ted Culotta's explanation of creating a D&H rebuilt USRA box car with a Viking roof. This is one project that can be undertaken in S-scale as well as in HO since both the car and roof as a separate part have been available. The project is nearing completion, but I need a source of decals for this car. In times past I have cobbled parts from HO and O decals. I do, in fact, have the Champ D&H road name set with the correct "one hundred years of anthracite service" circular emblem. If someone out there knows where I might obtain an old Walther's O-gauge decal for a D&H box car, I might be able to pull the decaling job off. And maybe someone has a method or source I know nothing about. Any ideas?

Tom

Re: CN Series #659000-65999 Steel Flat Car #659000-65999

pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
 

Paul,
The unmodified Tichy stake pockets are indeed not correct for this
model. However with a little effort they can be altered to present an
acceptable representation of the prototype.
The following instructions have been copied from an article by
Stafford Swain in CN Lines, V5,N4, full credit should got to Stafford
and Alf Goodall. I've done this mode and it's pretty straight forward.

The prototype for the Tichy stake pockets are a stamped metal "U"
shape type which were held to the car side with three U-bolts. The
modifications consist of removing some of this U-bolt detail. The
Tichy Pockets are partially modified while still on the casting sprue.
First the outside face of the Tichy stake pockets should be filed
flat, removing all traces of the three U-bolt flanges. The Tichy stake
pockets also come with locating stubs on the bases which would be a
nuisance to deal with on scratchbuilt side sills. These are filed off
while the pockets are on the sprue.

After the partially modified, individual pockets are attached securely
to the correct side sill locations, the side faces should have the
upper and lower flanges removed. A sharp single edged razor blade
works well for this task. Leave only the one flange in the centre to
simulate the strengthening corrugation of the standard stake pocket
design.

Good luck with your flat car,
Pierre Oliver

Guys,

I hace one of Point 1 Models CN #659000-659999 resin flat car kits
that I am looking to start. I only have one poor quality photo of this
car, but the stake pockets sure do not look like the Tichy ones
provided in the kit. Can anyone either tell me what is the correct
stake pocket, or can someone share a good scan of this car so I can
make a more intelligent decision as to what is correct.

Any and all help is appreicated.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA?
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Re: sewer pipes

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>
 

And don't forget Orangeburg. A sewar pipe made with tarpaper during or after
WWII.
http://www.sewerhistory.org/grfx/components/pipe-orng1.htm

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

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10:56 AM

Re: sewer pipes

John F. Cizmar
 

Dennis,
F.Y.I. Lead and oakum is still used to connect cast iron bell & spigot (cast iron) soil pipe in the Chicago. We sell tons of ingot lead for this purpose every year.
John F. Cizmar
SG Supply Company
Calumet Park, Illinois

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...> wrote:
--- In STMFC@..., rrfaned@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/28/2007 2:53:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
ed_mines@... writes:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

Clay was used for sanitary sewers. Cast iron pipe was typically
used for
transmission of water.
Except when used in buildings and other above grade (not buried)
applications. Clay pipe is just too fragile to use where it won't be
buried. Typical use in Chicago during the steam era was 4", 6", and 8"
C.I. pipe used for DWV (Drain, Waste, and Vent) within the building,
changing to similar sized clay where it went through the basement
floor or foundation wall. This was all "bell & spigot" pipe, the
straight end, the spigot, fit into the larger diameter bell and was
sealed with oakum and mortar for clay pipe; lead for C.I. In recent
years rubber gaskets have been developed for C.I. pipe and lead is not
used any longer.

What is lacking is information on the length of these pipes. I don't
ever remember seeing clay pipe any longer than 3', which made for a
lot of joints. C.I was available in 5' and 10' lengths, at least in
the smaller sizes. Large water service pipe was available in 20'
lengths, and maybe longer.

There was / is also a hubless clay pipe available in about 2' lengths
for use as drain tile; this was laid with the joints slightly open and
a layer of gravel for perimeter drains outside of foundations.

All these products were reasonably fragile, and would be palletized
after WWII, except for the largest sizes, which would be stacked on
blocking in gons.

Clay pipe was glazed and fired, and was a glossy medium brown or
reddish brown. Drain tile was not glazed, and was more or less the
color of flower pots. Cast iron was dipped in something at manufacture
that made it shiny black.

Dennis






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New Walthers Rolling Stock

Bob Chaparro <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

In the August MODEL RAILROADER (Page 3) Walthers is advertising General
American meat reefers and Mather stock cars. Apparently, these are
previously issued cars with new road names and car numbers.

Are these cars prototypically accurate as to road names and car
numbers? Are the cars themselves reasonably accurate representations
of the prototypes?

Thanks.

Bob Chaparro
Hemet, CA

Re: Kaolinite and China

Greg Martin
 

In a message dated 6/27/2007 9:15:58 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
prrinvt@... writes:

Guyz,

The PRR served the Homer Laughlin China and E M Knowles China Co in Newell
WV. They appear in the CT1000 for 1945

Fred Freitas


Dang it Fred I was out of town on business in the LA Basin and returned this
evening only to find you answered my question... Thanks Fred 3^)

GIZE, Next time you all are traveling and you have lunch at an old
diner/cafe and you see one of those old heavy white coffee mugs , check the bottom for
the label, chances are you might fine a good one like my cherished Sterling
China (or also a Hall China). If you do might get lucky and have a keeper...
They are fairly common. I have a set of a mug, creamer and tea pot (the Tea
pot and creamer I have came from a diner in Tehachapi, CA where I lived prior
to moving to Salem, OR) and talk the owner into selling it to you.

When I was a kid growing up the Men in most East Liverpool neighborhoods
would toss porcelain door knobs like cow-pokes pitch horse shoes only the
difference was the ringers were tossed into a tobacco/coffee cans, quite a skill
and fun to watch...

These types of items would be very commonly shipped by rail throughout the
country and in boxcars (mandatory freight car content) in barrels or crates...


Greg Martin



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

CN Series #659000-65999 Steel Flat Car #659000-65999

Paul Lyons
 

Guys,

I hace one of Point 1 Models CN #659000-659999 resin flat car kits that I am looking to start. I only have one poor quality photo of this car, but the stake pockets sure do not look like the Tichy ones provided in the kit. Can anyone either tell me what is the correct stake pocket, or can someone share a good scan of this car so I can make a more intelligent decision as to what is correct.

Any and all help is appreicated.

Paul Lyons
Laguna Niguel, CA?
________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

C&NW Stock Car Images

Bob Chaparro <thecitrusbelt@...>
 

Courtesy of Ron Christensen, here is a link to images of C&NW stock
cars originally posted on the Railway Bull Shippers Group:

http://www.cnwhs.org/articles/1183073558.pdf

Bob Chaparro
Moderator
Railway Bull Shippers Group

Re: sewer pipes

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@..., rrfaned@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/28/2007 2:53:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
ed_mines@... writes:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

Clay was used for sanitary sewers. Cast iron pipe was typically
used for
transmission of water.
Except when used in buildings and other above grade (not buried)
applications. Clay pipe is just too fragile to use where it won't be
buried. Typical use in Chicago during the steam era was 4", 6", and 8"
C.I. pipe used for DWV (Drain, Waste, and Vent) within the building,
changing to similar sized clay where it went through the basement
floor or foundation wall. This was all "bell & spigot" pipe, the
straight end, the spigot, fit into the larger diameter bell and was
sealed with oakum and mortar for clay pipe; lead for C.I. In recent
years rubber gaskets have been developed for C.I. pipe and lead is not
used any longer.

What is lacking is information on the length of these pipes. I don't
ever remember seeing clay pipe any longer than 3', which made for a
lot of joints. C.I was available in 5' and 10' lengths, at least in
the smaller sizes. Large water service pipe was available in 20'
lengths, and maybe longer.

There was / is also a hubless clay pipe available in about 2' lengths
for use as drain tile; this was laid with the joints slightly open and
a layer of gravel for perimeter drains outside of foundations.

All these products were reasonably fragile, and would be palletized
after WWII, except for the largest sizes, which would be stacked on
blocking in gons.

Clay pipe was glazed and fired, and was a glossy medium brown or
reddish brown. Drain tile was not glazed, and was more or less the
color of flower pots. Cast iron was dipped in something at manufacture
that made it shiny black.

Dennis

Re: sewer pipes

CJ Riley
 

Train Shed Cyc No 36 (1919) includes loading diagrans for cast iron, wrought
iron and concrete pipes in flats and gons. I'm sure Ive seen clay pipes in both
gons and box cars.

CJ Riley

--- rrfaned@... wrote:

In a message dated 6/28/2007 2:53:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
ed_mines@... writes:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

Clay was used for sanitary sewers. Cast iron pipe was typically used for
transmission of water.



What were the most common sizes? Colors?
Clay pipe is typically reddish brown. Think earth tone because that's what
it is. Clay pipe comes in many sizes. 4, 6, 8,10, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 30
and 36 inch. However any size larger than 12 to 15 inches in diameter would

be fairly uncommon.
Cast iron pipe is usually black in color. It is/was available in the same
sizes as clay pipe. 8, 10 and 12 inch diameter pipe is quite common in
municipal water systems. Larger sizes, 24, 30 and 36 inch pipe, is found
more
frequently in water systems than in sanitary sewer collection systems.



Any reason why they couldn't be loaded into gons?

None that I can think of. Clay pipe was typically cast in 4 or 5 foot
lengths while cast iron pipe was cast in 10 foot or greater lengths.



Ed


Ed Dabler, P.E.



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Re: sewer pipes

Raymond Young
 

Hello,

During the '40s to about 1965, there was a petroleum-based sewer pipe called Orangeburg. It was cheaper than cast iron, but it was a poor substitute. It lacked the rigidity and strength of cast iron. It sagged, allowed tree roots to enter the joints easily and seemed to be the material of choice for most contractors. Most building codes have outlawed its use in tha last 40 years. It was about 6 inches in diameter and had a rusty tan color. I'm sure it was shipped in gons and on flats. Rejoice that it's gone.

Virgil Young
Amarillo, TX

Bruce Smith <@smithbf> wrote:

On Jun 28, 2007, at 2:52 PM, ed_mines wrote:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

What were the most common sizes? Colors?
How about octagonal wooden pipes? A WWII war emergency program built
wooden pipe in a wide variety of sizes.
Steel pipe - thousands of gon loads of 24" and 20" pipe went into the
building of the "big inch" and "little inch" pipelines in 1942-43.

Any reason why they couldn't be loaded into gons?
None, of course.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

Re: sewer pipes

Bruce Smith
 

On Jun 28, 2007, at 2:52 PM, ed_mines wrote:

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

What were the most common sizes? Colors?
How about octagonal wooden pipes? A WWII war emergency program built wooden pipe in a wide variety of sizes.
Steel pipe - thousands of gon loads of 24" and 20" pipe went into the building of the "big inch" and "little inch" pipelines in 1942-43.

Any reason why they couldn't be loaded into gons?
None, of course.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0

sewer pipes

ed_mines
 

Anyone familiar with clay sewer pipes in the '40s? How about cast iron
sewer pipes?

What were the most common sizes? Colors?

Any reason why they couldn't be loaded into gons?


Ed

damaged gons

ed_mines
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Gatwood, Elden J SAD " The PRR
apparently had lots of really old or significantly damaged gons

The standard railroad of the world? Really?

I's like to see some photos of barely usable steam era gons.

Ed

Re: sewer pipes

Charles Hladik
 

Rust-O-Leum "Terra Cotta" spray paint is a perfect match for clay (terra
cotta) pipes, Spanish tile roofs also.
Chuck Hladik



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Re: Crew gratuities (was Citrus Traffic) now gon hoarding by crews

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Guys;



In that vein, I used to operate my layout (until recently, in fact) in a
manner similar to what I was told they did at many yards on the PRR in the
Pgh area, which included this exact issue. I was told that the PRR
consistently "hoarded" gons, and in fact, that crews that regularly switched
certain industries (USSteel being one) had a regular standing order for more
gons than the PRR could provide, with certain types (65' being one) in higher
demand. This resulted in situation where assemblages of gons were "stashed"
at small yards and sidings throughout the area, to be pulled when called on
by these industries. The industry reps would then cull the gons for those
they considered acceptable or not acceptable, based on the particular type of
load they were shipping. The PRR apparently had lots of really old or
significantly damaged gons that these reps turned down, which would then be
recycled back into the larger group of gons for re-consideration or for
consideration by another industry that used gons. Obviously, the gons the
scrap industry got were the worst examples of gon ever seen by any railroad,
since we are talking about both the largest and most decrepit gon fleet in
the nation, being used by a group of folks (I am only referring to then and
there) that purposely bashed magnets into the gons in an effort to destroy
them. Jack Consoli and I both remember the resulting outline of gons in
fallen rust chips found on the ground after these crews had dropped magnets
from 20 feet into the floor of a gon.



I personally remember gons sitting on sidings that had bashed out sides,
bashed out or missing ends, bashed through or even burned through floors, and
even some that had been turned down so many times they had been
semi-permanently parked in a siding and allowed to grow a forest in their
interior. There were some that had had ties or other things tossed across
the floor to disguise the lack of a viable floor, or act as a barrier to
things falling through. I even remember one that had obviously been torched
as a result of a hot coil load being placed on a treated, but probably tinder
dry wooden floor, which had charred floor timbers and blackened sides with
blistered paint at the periphery. But occasionally, one of these
end-of-the-line gons (perhaps not the latter example) would disappear, only
to pass by later with a load in it. Those that believe these gons were bad
ordered the instant they were spotted with a defect are kidding themselves.



I know there are some that doubt that steam-era gons looked this way, or pass
it off with a "pooh pooh, that was the Pennsy" like that makes it dismissable
from the reality, but we are talking many, many gons from all sorts of roads.
And, there are pics that show the miserable condition these gons were in! No
wonder they had to collect and hoard them!



I am gradually building my fleet of gons that vary from awful to brand-new,
and I hope I will closely replicate both the visual and operational reality
of that era and locale (sans the magnet treatment).



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Russ
Strodtz
Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 1:13 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Crew gratuities (was Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus
Traffic)



Tim,

I could easily say that the problem was that he came to the same conclusion
as you did.

Let's move this more toward modeling. Switching and Belt type roads are
usually net users of gons. While the Roadhaul Roads will fill orders for
their own business they will not create a car supply for a Switching Road's
internal needs. At this time period IHB owned no gons at all but their
daily
orders could be in the hundreds. This Shipper could have loaded those cars
in two days if the scrap price was right. They would have probably all have
gone to Inland Steel at an Intraterminal Switch Charge of around $300.00
each. If Inland liked the condition of any they would have probably held
them for loading. That's another clang of the cash register.

In essence he was making a cost/benefit decision without being in a position
to know it's implications. While the volume on a Switching or Belt Road
looks good that is not what pays the bills. Overhead traffic was cheap. The
big money was/is in Intraterminal Switches.

I doubt the kickbacks went higher up the chain but on a road like that the
General Manager knows exactly what he is getting for every move. I'm
sure the crews knew the tolerance level for gon hoarding and were probably
aware of the scrap prices. I know I used to look at them almost every day.

Russ

----- Original Message -----
From: <@timboconnor <mailto:timboconnor%40comcast.net> >
To: <STMFC@... <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, 27 June, 2007 11:21
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Crew gratuities (was Santa Fe & PFE's-Erie Citrus
Traffic)


But why was he dismissed? Car rental (per diem) on 30 gondolas has
to be quite a lot of money. Surely someone at the railroad pays that bill?
The trainee was trying to save the RR a lot of money. Or did the kickbacks
go higher up the chain?

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Russ Strodtz" <sheridan@...
<mailto:sheridan%40rrwebhost.com> >

Pielet Brothers had a auto scrap shredder
in Argo IL. One weekend a new Trainmaster Trainee from PC got told to
cover that location for a weekend. There were over 30 empty gons in the
yard and no one would explain why they were there. He had them all
shipped out of town. Pielet was paying a number of crews a sizable
amount
for a good car supply. That Monday the Trainmaster Trainee was
dismissed.