Tim,

Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal (N&W, C&O or VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by collier or barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from there. We've discussed these movements before on this group. Nearly all of this would have been bituminous coal. I don't know how much was sold as steamer coal versus home heating coal. This traffic would partly account for hopper fleets owned by the CV, B&M and New Haven.

At least some of this traffic still goes on, or at least did until recently, now destined only for power plants. When I was in the Coast Guard at Portsmouth, Virginia, during 1982-83 I did the news releases for the infamous case of a collier called the Marine Electric which went down off Maryland. This was, of course, outside of our time frame.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

timboconnor@... wrote:

This is more of a question than an answer.

Didn't a couple of New England roads have coal import port
facilities? (Example, BAR at Searsport) This would have allowed coal
originating on roads such as N&W and C&O to arrive by water and be
delivered in home road cars.

John King


--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the

coal

would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New

England

customers.

Tim O'Connor


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...>

ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME

HEATING

COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE

B&O)

HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN

THE

LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@...> wrote:

Which reminds me to ask... is it safe to assume that eastern roads

used hoppers to move limestone to steel mills?

Dave Nelson

Yes. B&O moved a large amount of limestone and dolomite to the Ohio
Valley from eastern West Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley of
Virginia. Blast Furnace and Open Hearth flux moved in open hoppers.
Lime and processed dolomite moved in covered hoppers and containers.

John King

Ed,

That would not necessarily be unusal.? The antracite roads (RDG, LV, CNJ, CRP, D&H, LNE) seem to have indiscrinantely loaded each others cars.? They even loaded PRR cars.? They were loosely aligned to get the antracite to market.? Following the first air pollution regulations in 1948 (Allegheny County, PA) which banned the use of bituminious coal for home heating, it became fairly common to see blocks of these cars in PRR trains carrying "hard" coal west for home heating purposes.

Rich Orr

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New England
customers.

Tim O'Connor

Ed,
Thanks for the information. After my post, I went back and took a
look in the earlier volume at the Frisco car, and it is apparent
that there is a Z-section member which runs the length of the side
plate, just under the roof. This conclusion is from looking at the
interior photo as well as some of the exterior photos. The exterior
flange stands out horizontally away from the side, similar to a
typical CB&Q SS car, just under the eave. The interior horizontal
flange (or what appears to be a horizontal flange of the same
member) is what the carlines are bolted to.

I'm curious how that 14 1/2 x 1/4" plate seals against the top piece
of wood siding?

Thanks again...

Phil Buchwald



--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:

On Jul 8, 2007, at 6:24 PM, buchwaldfam wrote:

They do not, however show the side plate
dimensions. Are the large, 12 to 18 inch tall metal panels just

below

the eaves integral with the side plates?

Phil,
The general arrangement drawings for MoPac's SS Howe-truss box

cars

specify steel top plates 14-1/2" high by 1/4" thick.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

There are a couple of books of NKP publicity photos with many of the
photos taken in the steam era.

In the text of onoe of these books it says that most coal on the NKP
came from the C&O (at one time the 2 roads were affiliated by a
common owner; they even shared offices).

NKP had a moderate sized fleet of their own hoppers. Is it possible
that their own fleet was used to ship coal for company use? I've
wondered about this for other railroads - Wabash I think.

There's a color book of CNJ steam and a NKP composite hopper shows up
in several of the photos. Could that be after NKP switched to diesels?

Someone (Chuck Yungkurth?) called "out of place" hoppers "strays".
After you have a couple of photos of common cars you're likely to
take photos of the odd balls that stand out. How many photos of
WAG "sole leather line" SS box cars have you seen?

It's telling that there are few if any photos of C&O hoppers in the
Culotta-Klein book.

I saw some data on coal shipments for one of the anthracite region
railroads that had their own fleet of hoppers. Yearly shipments in
foreign hoppers exceeded shipments in home home road hoppers.

I've oftened wondered if this was seasonal with off road hoppers
being returned when the home road could supply enough hoppers to
customers (during the summer). There was a hopper shortage during the
peak season for coal and no attempt was made to return off road
hoppers.

Ed

Ed

Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" >> Malcolm Laughlin wrote: "You would never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the

C&O or N&W."

Chessie's Road, p. 171... what's that under the tipple? Hmmmmm.
Appears to be a VIRGINIAN hopper car. Yep.
======

Never say "never". I should have said "hardly ever". It is true that such practice was strongly frowned upon.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478

Joel,

You may try the New haven list for help with this one. The NH had coal docks on the east coast to transfer to cars for delivery. One I recall was in New Bedford, MA. Also, there was a Mystic Coal facility in the back of Boston Harbor served by the B&M. As a youngin' I remember seeing the B&A hoppers spotted out in the Allston / Brighton area, as well as the Newton area.
There are several choices depending on your RR if interest; or you can use one or two from each. The only other hoppers I recall were PRR and an occasional B&O. Most, if not all were the twin hoppers. Only the power plants rec'd the larger 3 and 4 pocket cars. hope this helps in your search for accurate info.

Fred Freitas

joel norman <mec-bml@...> wrote:
ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN

There was also a lot of limestone moved by the B&O from Fairport Harbor,
Ohio to.............
Chuck Hladik



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN

Didn't someone just say that when talking about railroads never say
"never" and always avoid "always"?

regards,
Andy Miller

Just for the record, there were carmer uncoupling levers still in use
in the mid to late 1970's, I pull a few of those pins while switching.
Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Jul 8, 2007, at 8:53 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:

I was reviewing the photos in RPC #2 and Kaminski's ACF Tank cars

book

tonight and noticed something I hadn't seen before. The cars in

the

photos
have three different uncoupling levers depending on when they

were

constructed. Cars built up through approximately Jan 1931 had

carmer

type
levers, from 1931 to the late 30's top operated levers were
installed, and
starting around 1937 bottom operated levers were installed. I

wonder

if Ed
has any better data on these changes?

The cars I am modeling came from lots 1629 and 2355 so base on

the

photos
bottom operated levers are required. I'm wondering if the Carmer

type

or top
operated lots would have been changed later in life? I'm

guessing the

answer
is maybe.

Brian, it would depend on whether their couplers were later

replaced

with bottom-operated type Es, in which case bottom-operated rotary
uncoupling mechanisms would have been required. AC&F continued to

use

Carmer levers long after most other car owners stopped doing so; in
fact, some railroads that got USRA cars from the feds during WW I
disliked the Carmer levers so much that they replaced them in the

1920s

with top-operated rotary uncouplers.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mike Brock wrote

I quite agree...and have always maintained...that coal laden hoppers
from one RR will often have to ride another to the final destination.

And this is in fact clearly documented in the charts I mentioned
from "Chessie's Road" (the charts are from the C&O HS collection)
and in fact they show how many tons were turned over at each point
of interchange -- 36 million tons a year passed through Charleston
westbound on the C&O, but less than 6 million made it to lake boats.
Millions of tons went to the B&O, Erie, PRR, and other connections
large and small.

The charts were compiled by the brothers Van Swerigen in an attempt
to get the ICC to approve the merger of PM-NKP-ERIE-C&O-HV. A pretty
good idea, just 70 years ahead of its time...

Tim O'Connor

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
"You would never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the
C&O or N&W."

Chessie's Road, p. 171... what's that under the tipple? Hmmmmm.
Appears to be a VIRGINIAN hopper car. Yep.

By the way, pp.140-141 have wonderful traffic charts showing coal
flows by tonnage and carloads, and also show loaded/empty car stats
for Erie, NKP, C&O, Hocking Valley and Pere Marquette in the 1920's
for WV to Illinois. Did you know NKP handled an average of 665
eastbound loads a day from Bellevue to Cleveland, but only 52 empty
cars? The Erie handled 587 loads east from Marion, 117 empties. Loads
westbound was less for both, but NKP got a higher percentage of
returning loads than the Erie.

But I digress.

Tim O'Connor

Hello All,

How would these cars be unloaded?

It seems to me that they would fill with Carbon Dioxide, and thus you
could not go into one of them. (And live.)

Peter J. McClosky
=====
rhinman@... wrote:

--
--
Peter J. McClosky
http://home.earthlink.net/~pmcclosky
pmcclosky@...

Being used as insulated box cars?

Bill Vaughn
--- branchline@... wrote:

Ice service maybe?

Bill Schneider

----- Original Message -----
From: Miller, Andrew S.
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 8:07 AM
Subject: [STMFC] strange C&NW cars


Can anyone educate me on the purpose of these C&NW
cars?
http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/1a34660uu.jpg
<http://www.shorpy.com/files/images/1a34660uu.jpg>


They have hinged, refrigerator car doors, but no
ice hatches!

Are they rebuilds?

regards,

Andy Miller


[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been
removed]

____________________________________________________________________________________
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Malcolm Laughlin writes:

"You would never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the C&O or N&W."

Perhaps so. We seem to have fewer photos at the actual mines compared to mainline traffic. However, there is the photo of a 3 bay MP hopper [ along with a companion Erie hopper ] in a long string of MT B&O hoppers on the B&O headed to West Va from Lorain, OH B&O Trackside, pg 40 ]. These "foreigners" will be loading coal rather far from home rails. I quite agree...and have always maintained...that coal laden hoppers from one RR will often have to ride another to the final destination. In the case of Appalachian RRs this might mean that the first part of the trip would be on home rails and only the need to get to Newcastle...well...a Lake Erie port or the Chicago area...might cause them to go off line. But...a Mopac hopper heading to WV? Don't sound like its first mileage will be on home rails.

Mike Brock

Except for an experimental car built by ACF, all of the DICX cars were MDT standard refrigerator cars modified for this service by building insert kits and in many cases had special door assemblies added. MDT had the service contract with Dry Ice Corp and its successors from the early 1930s until the late 1960s. I could supply car type for most any car in this range. I'm on travel this week and don't have access to my records but DICX 115 is probably the M4 car modified for this service.

I also have at home, two older O scale cars, mfg unknown, of DICX cars in a similar low number range. What was interesting to me is the re-weigh data on the models appears correct and was probably taken from a photo. I have never seen a confirming photo of any DICX car less than 120 but do ihave dispostion records that indicate year built


Roger Hinman

Posted by: "Mike Brock" Bruce,
I didn't express myself well. What I meant to say was that Appalachian RRs
including Pennsy, C&O, B&O, and N&W would commonly have hoppers of these
same RRs in their consists.... although perhaps C&O and N&W might not have
many of their own in the other's trains.
===========

A few points that come to mind beyond what Mike has said.

The situation was different in loading areas on C&O, N&W and a few other railroads covered by C411. That was a car service directive that prohibited other railroads from loading cars of specified marks. These were railroads that by the Car Service Division's formula owned a number of cars adequate to completely protect their on-line loading. You would never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the C&O or N&W. In contrast to the usual situation, this was an AAR order that was well observed. I recall from NYC car distribution experience that we absolutely would not send those marks to our mines for loading. I don't recall what iother roads were covered by C411.

Remember that any coal shipper could ship to any destination on any railroad. As an example of what could happen, coal from mines along the west end of the C&O and N&W, also NYC, IC and SOU in southern IN and IL, also western PA, would take care of consumption needs in Michigan and northern Ohio and Indiana. This would have caused you to see coal hoppers of NYC, IC, N&W, L&N, C&O, CC&O, PRR, B&O and P&LE anywhere in those destination areas on WAB, NKP, AA, PM, GTW, NYC, DT&I, PRR, B&O, etc. etc. etc. So you really can't say that any mark of hopper doesn't belong on any railroad going to coal dealers and power plants several hundred miles from the mining areas.

Same is true of construction aggregates, which typically traveled a few hundred miles and had origins in every state. I'd guess that half were two line hauls.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478