Date   

Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I know that the DL&W had sea-going tugs which were built for the purpose of taking barges of
Anthracite to New England ports. I know, further, that one port was Salem, MA. I suspect that
other ports were in Maine, and Portsmouth NH, New Bedford MA, and points in RI and CT. But I don't
have any proof of these last.

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Garth G. Groff
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] HOME HEATING COAL

Tim,

Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal
(N&W, C&O or
VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by
collier or
barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from there.
We've discussed these movements before on this group. Nearly
all of this
would have been bituminous coal. I don't know how much was sold as
steamer coal versus home heating coal. This traffic would
partly account
for hopper fleets owned by the CV, B&M and New Haven.

At least some of this traffic still goes on, or at least did until
recently, now destined only for power plants. When I was in the Coast
Guard at Portsmouth, Virginia, during 1982-83 I did the news releases
for the infamous case of a collier called the Marine Electric
which went
down off Maryland. This was, of course, outside of our time frame.

Kind regards,

Garth G. Groff

timboconnor@... <mailto:timboconnor%40comcast.net> wrote:
Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most
of the coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly
New England
customers.

Tim O'Connor


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...
<mailto:mec-bml%40sbcglobal.net> >

ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED
HOME HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A
B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS
BUSINESS IN THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN


Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Only D&H and NYC, and DL&W and O&W, and RDG, and B&O and PRR, and a few more, Tim. Your list of
coal originating roads is way too short . Delivery, yes, NYC and D&H could both make it into New
England, though the D&H was only a toehold. But all New England railroads delivered hoppers of
coal, for home heating and for industrial use, back when we had some industry in New England.

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of timboconnor@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:36 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] HOME HEATING COAL

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New England
customers.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...
<mailto:mec-bml%40sbcglobal.net> >
ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED
HOME HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A
B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS
BUSINESS IN THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN



Re: Type 27 tank cars again

Guy Wilber
 

Brian wrote:

Cars built up through approximately Jan 1931 had carmer type
levers, from 1931 to the late 30's top operated levers were installed, and
starting around 1937 bottom operated levers were installed.
Brian,

All cars (in interchange) built new on, or after August 1, 1933, were
required to have rotating type uncoupling levers. It was "recommended" that when
cars built prior to that date received Type 1 repairs that they be so equipped.

Kind Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI





************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


Re: HOME HEATING COAL (and cars that "shouldn't" be in K&C's book)

al_brown03
 

The original question in this thread was about *home heating* coal;
how much of that was anthracite?

How coal came to New England depended on *where* in New England one
meant. Two years ago we discussed the Alburgh, Vt., coal trestle at
which the Rutland received coal for transshipment. That coal didn't
come by barge, I don't think :-), but in hoppers from many roads. See
messages 43288 and 43309 (among many in that time frame).

The answer to a lot of these questions about routing seems to be "it
depends" ... on local circumstances in many cases. Frustrating yet
fascinating.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:


Actually, most of the barged coal was consumed along the
coastlines. And I
did say "most" coal, not all.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...>
Tim,

Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal (N&W,
C&O or
VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by
collier or
barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from
there.


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Tim O'Connor
 

Actually, most of the barged coal was consumed along the coastlines. And I
did say "most" coal, not all.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...>
Tim,

Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal (N&W, C&O or
VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by collier or
barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from there.


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

bill_d_goat
 

--- In STMFC@..., Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...> wrote:

Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" >> Malcolm Laughlin wrote: "You would
never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the
C&O or N&W."
C&O ran large numbers of NRBX (the other Berwind, New River Berwind)
on its main to Newport News. IIRC, these were also loaded at coal mines
served by the C&O, not off line mines. Would NRBX be considered
"foreign"?, Or are private owner cars not included in that category?
Bill Williams


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

John,

Where were the limestone quarries in the Shenandoah Valley? And what time frame. There's lots of limestone there, but I can't think of any large quarrying operations served by the B&O or its connections.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

boyds1949 wrote:

Yes. B&O moved a large amount of limestone and dolomite to the Ohio Valley from eastern West Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. Blast Furnace and Open Hearth flux moved in open hoppers. Lime and processed dolomite moved in covered hoppers and containers.

John King


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal (N&W, C&O or VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by collier or barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from there. We've discussed these movements before on this group. Nearly all of this would have been bituminous coal. I don't know how much was sold as steamer coal versus home heating coal. This traffic would partly account for hopper fleets owned by the CV, B&M and New Haven.

At least some of this traffic still goes on, or at least did until recently, now destined only for power plants. When I was in the Coast Guard at Portsmouth, Virginia, during 1982-83 I did the news releases for the infamous case of a collier called the Marine Electric which went down off Maryland. This was, of course, outside of our time frame.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

timboconnor@... wrote:

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New England
customers.

Tim O'Connor


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...>

ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME HEATING COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN THE LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN

Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: HOME HEATING COAL

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

This is more of a question than an answer.

Didn't a couple of New England roads have coal import port
facilities? (Example, BAR at Searsport) This would have allowed coal
originating on roads such as N&W and C&O to arrive by water and be
delivered in home road cars.

John King


--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the
coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New
England
customers.

Tim O'Connor


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...>
ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME
HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE
B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN
THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., "Dave Nelson" <muskoka@...> wrote:


Which reminds me to ask... is it safe to assume that eastern roads
used hoppers to move limestone to steel mills?

Dave Nelson
Yes. B&O moved a large amount of limestone and dolomite to the Ohio
Valley from eastern West Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley of
Virginia. Blast Furnace and Open Hearth flux moved in open hoppers.
Lime and processed dolomite moved in covered hoppers and containers.

John King


Re: northeast US hopper movements

SUVCWORR@...
 

Ed,

That would not necessarily be unusal.? The antracite roads (RDG, LV, CNJ, CRP, D&H, LNE) seem to have indiscrinantely loaded each others cars.? They even loaded PRR cars.? They were loosely aligned to get the antracite to market.? Following the first air pollution regulations in 1948 (Allegheny County, PA) which banned the use of bituminious coal for home heating, it became fairly common to see blocks of these cars in PRR trains carrying "hard" coal west for home heating purposes.

Rich Orr

-----Original Message-----
From: ed_mines <ed_mines@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:29 pm
Subject: [STMFC] northeast US hopper movements



<snip>

I saw some data on coal shipments for one of the anthracite region
railroads that had their own fleet of hoppers. Yearly shipments in
foreign hoppers exceeded shipments in home home road hoppers.


________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Tim O'Connor
 

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New England
customers.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...>
ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN


Re: MP Single Sheathed Box Cars

buchwaldfam <duff@...>
 

Ed,
Thanks for the information. After my post, I went back and took a
look in the earlier volume at the Frisco car, and it is apparent
that there is a Z-section member which runs the length of the side
plate, just under the roof. This conclusion is from looking at the
interior photo as well as some of the exterior photos. The exterior
flange stands out horizontally away from the side, similar to a
typical CB&Q SS car, just under the eave. The interior horizontal
flange (or what appears to be a horizontal flange of the same
member) is what the carlines are bolted to.

I'm curious how that 14 1/2 x 1/4" plate seals against the top piece
of wood siding?

Thanks again...

Phil Buchwald



--- In STMFC@..., Ed Hawkins <hawk0621@...> wrote:


On Jul 8, 2007, at 6:24 PM, buchwaldfam wrote:

They do not, however show the side plate
dimensions. Are the large, 12 to 18 inch tall metal panels just
below
the eaves integral with the side plates?
Phil,
The general arrangement drawings for MoPac's SS Howe-truss box
cars
specify steel top plates 14-1/2" high by 1/4" thick.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


northeast US hopper movements

ed_mines
 

There are a couple of books of NKP publicity photos with many of the
photos taken in the steam era.

In the text of onoe of these books it says that most coal on the NKP
came from the C&O (at one time the 2 roads were affiliated by a
common owner; they even shared offices).

NKP had a moderate sized fleet of their own hoppers. Is it possible
that their own fleet was used to ship coal for company use? I've
wondered about this for other railroads - Wabash I think.

There's a color book of CNJ steam and a NKP composite hopper shows up
in several of the photos. Could that be after NKP switched to diesels?

Someone (Chuck Yungkurth?) called "out of place" hoppers "strays".
After you have a couple of photos of common cars you're likely to
take photos of the odd balls that stand out. How many photos of
WAG "sole leather line" SS box cars have you seen?

It's telling that there are few if any photos of C&O hoppers in the
Culotta-Klein book.

I saw some data on coal shipments for one of the anthracite region
railroads that had their own fleet of hoppers. Yearly shipments in
foreign hoppers exceeded shipments in home home road hoppers.

I've oftened wondered if this was seasonal with off road hoppers
being returned when the home road could supply enough hoppers to
customers (during the summer). There was a hopper shortage during the
peak season for coal and no attempt was made to return off road
hoppers.

Ed

Ed


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" >> Malcolm Laughlin wrote: "You would never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the
C&O or N&W."
Chessie's Road, p. 171... what's that under the tipple? Hmmmmm.
Appears to be a VIRGINIAN hopper car. Yep.
======

Never say "never". I should have said "hardly ever". It is true that such practice was strongly frowned upon.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Joel,

You may try the New haven list for help with this one. The NH had coal docks on the east coast to transfer to cars for delivery. One I recall was in New Bedford, MA. Also, there was a Mystic Coal facility in the back of Boston Harbor served by the B&M. As a youngin' I remember seeing the B&A hoppers spotted out in the Allston / Brighton area, as well as the Newton area.
There are several choices depending on your RR if interest; or you can use one or two from each. The only other hoppers I recall were PRR and an occasional B&O. Most, if not all were the twin hoppers. Only the power plants rec'd the larger 3 and 4 pocket cars. hope this helps in your search for accurate info.

Fred Freitas

joel norman <mec-bml@...> wrote:
ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

Charles Hladik
 

There was also a lot of limestone moved by the B&O from Fairport Harbor,
Ohio to.............
Chuck Hladik



************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.


HOME HEATING COAL

joel norman <mec-bml@...>
 

ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Didn't someone just say that when talking about railroads never say
"never" and always avoid "always"?

regards,
Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of
Tim O'Connor
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 11:15 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
"You would never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the
C&O or N&W."
Chessie's Road, p. 171... what's that under the tipple? Hmmmmm.
Appears to be a VIRGINIAN hopper car. Yep.

By the way, pp.140-141 have wonderful traffic charts showing coal
flows by tonnage and carloads, and also show loaded/empty car stats
for Erie, NKP, C&O, Hocking Valley and Pere Marquette in the 1920's
for WV to Illinois. Did you know NKP handled an average of 665
eastbound loads a day from Bellevue to Cleveland, but only 52 empty
cars? The Erie handled 587 loads east from Marion, 117 empties. Loads
westbound was less for both, but NKP got a higher percentage of
returning loads than the Erie.

But I digress.

Tim O'Connor




Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: Type 27 tank cars again

Jeff Coleman
 

Just for the record, there were carmer uncoupling levers still in use
in the mid to late 1970's, I pull a few of those pins while switching.
Jeff Coleman

--- In STMFC@..., Richard Hendrickson <rhendrickson@...>
wrote:

On Jul 8, 2007, at 8:53 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:

I was reviewing the photos in RPC #2 and Kaminski's ACF Tank cars
book
tonight and noticed something I hadn't seen before. The cars in
the
photos
have three different uncoupling levers depending on when they
were
constructed. Cars built up through approximately Jan 1931 had
carmer
type
levers, from 1931 to the late 30's top operated levers were
installed, and
starting around 1937 bottom operated levers were installed. I
wonder
if Ed
has any better data on these changes?

The cars I am modeling came from lots 1629 and 2355 so base on
the
photos
bottom operated levers are required. I'm wondering if the Carmer
type
or top
operated lots would have been changed later in life? I'm
guessing the
answer
is maybe.
Brian, it would depend on whether their couplers were later
replaced
with bottom-operated type Es, in which case bottom-operated rotary
uncoupling mechanisms would have been required. AC&F continued to
use
Carmer levers long after most other car owners stopped doing so; in
fact, some railroads that got USRA cars from the feds during WW I
disliked the Carmer levers so much that they replaced them in the
1920s
with top-operated rotary uncouplers.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

131441 - 131460 of 195507