Date   

Re: top or bottom couplers was Type 27 tank cars again

Guy Wilber
 

Brian asked:

One question I've had in the back of my mind for awhile now is why both top
and bottom operating lever were manufactured/and bottom
The Type "D" coupler was adopted as standard by the MCB in 1916. The No. 10
contour was adopted as standard in 1918. The design for the 6" x 8" shank
was adopted as standard in 1918.

From the ARA (circa 1919), "The ARA standard "D" coupler makes provisions
for both top and bottom operation, the latter being necessary for cars with low
height of floors from rail and where it is desirable to keep all portions of
the uncoupling arrangement below the floor line."

"In 1919 the Standard for uncoupling levers for new freight cars and
application of new design coupler operating device to existing freight cars must be
of type directly connected to coupler knuckle locking block or locking block
lifter without use of clevices, links, chain or pin and must conform to the
detailed specifications prescribed in the United States Safety Appliance
Standards."

More Later,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI






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Re: top or bottom couplers was Type 27 tank cars again

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Jul 10, 2007, at 9:32 PM, Brian J Carlson wrote:

One question I've had in the back of my mind for awhile now is why
both top
and bottom operating lever were manufactured/available? It seems to
me top
operated ones were first with bottom operated ones later. What is the
benefit to either type? Ease of mfg? safety?
It's easy, Brian. Top-operated uncoupling mechanisms were used with
Type D couplers, adopted in 1919, which were released by lifting the
locking pin upward from the top. Bottom-operated rotary uncoupling
mechanisms were generally used with improved Type E couplers, adopted
in 1930, which usually were released by pushing upward on the locking
pin (Type E couplers could be, but usually were not, equipped with a
top-lifting locking pin arrangement).

Richard Hendrickson


Re: Limestone for the Steel Industry (was. . . Kline & Culotta's book)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John King wrote:
Mostly correct for open hearth steelmaking. The primary flux was limestone.
The word "primary" is vital here. We are talking a very large proportion of limestone to lime, the lime being, as you say, only an adjustment. I do have and understand a copy of "Making, Shaping and Treating."

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


top or bottom couplers was Type 27 tank cars again

Brian J Carlson <brian@...>
 

Thanks Guy. I assume that "recommended" is just that because I know some PRR
X26 boxcars were retired in the 1960's still with Carmer levers.

One question I've had in the back of my mind for awhile now is why both top
and bottom operating lever were manufactured/available? It seems to me top
operated ones were first with bottom operated ones later. What is the
benefit to either type? Ease of mfg? safety? This is more of a interesting
but relatively useless factoid that may only interest me but I am curious.
Brian J Carlson P.E.
Cheektowaga NY


Re: coal to New England (was HOME HEATING COAL)

Tim O'Connor
 

In addition to power plants along waterways, I know that paper mills
were users of steam coal, and probably this would have come to ports
close to Maine or in Maine itself. At least it does nowadays. There is
a large power plant along the Cape Cod Canal, that gets fuel by water,
but I don't know if it ever burned coal.

Tim O'


Schuyler Larabee wrote

I know that the DL&W had sea-going tugs which were built for the purpose of taking barges of
Anthracite to New England ports. I know, further, that one port was Salem, MA. I suspect that
other ports were in Maine, and Portsmouth NH, New Bedford MA, and points in RI and CT. But I don't
have any proof of these last.


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Tim O'Connor
 

Read the whole sentence Schuyler -- only < > served coal mines
AND (a logical conjunction, you're familiar with it?) [could]
deliver coal directly to NEW ENGLAND customers.

DL&W did not run in any of the New England states. Nor did B&O,
PRR, O&W, RDG, etc.

At 7/10/2007 09:53 PM Tuesday, you wrote:
Only D&H and NYC, and DL&W and O&W, and RDG, and B&O and PRR, and a few more, Tim. Your list of
coal originating roads is way too short . Delivery, yes, NYC and D&H could both make it into New
England, though the D&H was only a toehold. But all New England railroads delivered hoppers of
coal, for home heating and for industrial use, back when we had some industry in New England.

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of timboconnor@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:36 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] HOME HEATING COAL

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New England
customers.

Tim O'Connor


Limestone for the Steel Industry (was. . . Kline & Culotta's book)

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

Tony,

Correct for blast furnace production of iron. Both limestone and
dolomite were used. Depended some on the qualities of the ore and
the intended use of the slag.

Mostly correct for open hearth steelmaking. The primary flux was
limestone. But according the the sales manager at MJ Grove in
Stephens City, Va (one of the lime plants below Winchester) and, more
importantly, the 1951 edition of "Making, Shaping and Treating of
Steel", published by US Steel; burnt lime was used to adjust the
level of flux in the open hearth furnace when a greater amount of
lime than provided by the limestone is found to be needed in the
later stages of the heat. This was one of the uses for the
Youngstown containers which were shipped on gons.

John


--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

John King wrote:
Jones and Laughlin had a quarry at a place called Blairton W. Va
near
Martinsburg which shipped 985 cars in August of 1951. This would
have
been both raw stone and lime . . .
For steelmaking, limestone is used, not lime--for those
thinking
of steel industry shipping.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John King wrote:
Jones and Laughlin had a quarry at a place called Blairton W. Va near Martinsburg which shipped 985 cars in August of 1951. This would have been both raw stone and lime . . .
For steelmaking, limestone is used, not lime--for those thinking of steel industry shipping.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

Garth,

Jones and Laughlin had a quarry at a place called Blairton W. Va near
Martinsburg which shipped 985 cars in August of 1951. This would
have been both raw stone and lime.

Millville, W. Va (about 4 miles up the Shenandoah River from Harpers
Ferry) had three plants, US Steel, Jones and Laughlin and Standard
Lime and Stone which together, shipped 3228 cars in August, 1951. US
Steel was all Dolomite stone, Jones and Laughlin was both processed
and stone. Standard was all processed in one way or another, mostly
to produce products for the steel industry.

There were several smaller plants west (south) of Winchester which
together produced about 600 loads in August, 1951. This was both
lime and limestone.

I don't think there were any traffic patterns which would have put
B&O cars to far from home rails.

John King



--- In STMFC@..., "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...> wrote:

John,

Where were the limestone quarries in the Shenandoah Valley? And
what
time frame. There's lots of limestone there, but I can't think of
any
large quarrying operations served by the B&O or its connections.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

boyds1949 wrote:
Yes. B&O moved a large amount of limestone and dolomite to the
Ohio
Valley from eastern West Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley of
Virginia. Blast Furnace and Open Hearth flux moved in open
hoppers.
Lime and processed dolomite moved in covered hoppers and
containers.

John King


Mixed road hoppers

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>
 

May or may not be germane to recent topics, but some color slides I
took in October 1960 at the Alpha Cement plant on the Delaware river
north of Easton PA show some interesting hoppers. Alpha was a huge
facility at the end of the L&NE's Martins Creek branch, and was also
served by the DL&W (via a branch down from Bangor) and the PRR (from
the Bel-Del division across the river). In addition to the expected
batallions of covered cement hoppers from the three resident lines, my
slides show empty two-bay open hoppers from the WM, B&O, P&LE and
Montour. No PRR open hoppers. Author Robert F. Fischer in ONLY
YESTERDAY ON THE LEHIGH & NEW ENGLAND mentions that both coal and
limestone arrived at Alpha in open hoppers.

Tom Madden


Wabash Billboard Lettering

Justin Kahn
 

Thanks, Chet, good to have a definitive answer, both for a Lobaugh 65' mill gondola, and some of my remaining RailCraft panelside hoppers (I sometimes think they reproduce in the dark at the back of the train closet, as I am convinced I have finished the last of them when I find yet another one needing detailing, painting and lettering). And I am stuck with the Wabash roadname, as someone (probably Chet) pointed out that the longer panelside twins were unique to the Wabash and its subsidiaries (the New Haven had ONE).
Jace Kahn, General Manager
Ceres and Canisteo RR Co.


Comparing views on the Elwood site with some excellent prints sent me
by
another list member, I had long noticed that the Wabash billboard-
style
roadname on hoppers and gondolas came in two sizes: large and larger
(about
50% larger in the latter from the former). I assume there was a
prototype
rationale for the two sizes, probably correlated with time-frame, but
I've
never found a full discussion of the practice.

The change from 18" letters to 33" was authorized on April 5, 1955 for
hopper cars and gons 52 foot and longer. Cars that received the new
larger lettering were the 37000 series panel hoppers and repainted 52'
and 65' gons. Two other groups of cars, purchased used, just past the
cut-off date for this group, the 11300-11799 series 52'6" Bethlehem
gons from the CNJ in 1962 and the 38000-38358 series H2 class hoppers
from the N&W in 1963, also were lettered with the 33" WABASH.

Chet French
Dixon, IL
_________________________________________________________________
Local listings, incredible imagery, and driving directions - all in one place! http://maps.live.com/?wip=69&FORM=MGAC01


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Schuyler Larrabee
 

I know that the DL&W had sea-going tugs which were built for the purpose of taking barges of
Anthracite to New England ports. I know, further, that one port was Salem, MA. I suspect that
other ports were in Maine, and Portsmouth NH, New Bedford MA, and points in RI and CT. But I don't
have any proof of these last.

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of Garth G. Groff
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 2:48 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] HOME HEATING COAL

Tim,

Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal
(N&W, C&O or
VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by
collier or
barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from there.
We've discussed these movements before on this group. Nearly
all of this
would have been bituminous coal. I don't know how much was sold as
steamer coal versus home heating coal. This traffic would
partly account
for hopper fleets owned by the CV, B&M and New Haven.

At least some of this traffic still goes on, or at least did until
recently, now destined only for power plants. When I was in the Coast
Guard at Portsmouth, Virginia, during 1982-83 I did the news releases
for the infamous case of a collier called the Marine Electric
which went
down off Maryland. This was, of course, outside of our time frame.

Kind regards,

Garth G. Groff

timboconnor@... <mailto:timboconnor%40comcast.net> wrote:
Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most
of the coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly
New England
customers.

Tim O'Connor


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...
<mailto:mec-bml%40sbcglobal.net> >

ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED
HOME HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A
B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS
BUSINESS IN THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN


Yahoo! Groups Links







Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Only D&H and NYC, and DL&W and O&W, and RDG, and B&O and PRR, and a few more, Tim. Your list of
coal originating roads is way too short . Delivery, yes, NYC and D&H could both make it into New
England, though the D&H was only a toehold. But all New England railroads delivered hoppers of
coal, for home heating and for industrial use, back when we had some industry in New England.

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On
Behalf Of timboconnor@...
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 1:36 PM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] HOME HEATING COAL

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New England
customers.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...
<mailto:mec-bml%40sbcglobal.net> >
ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED
HOME HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A
B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS
BUSINESS IN THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN



Re: Type 27 tank cars again

Guy Wilber
 

Brian wrote:

Cars built up through approximately Jan 1931 had carmer type
levers, from 1931 to the late 30's top operated levers were installed, and
starting around 1937 bottom operated levers were installed.
Brian,

All cars (in interchange) built new on, or after August 1, 1933, were
required to have rotating type uncoupling levers. It was "recommended" that when
cars built prior to that date received Type 1 repairs that they be so equipped.

Kind Regards,

Guy Wilber
West Bend, WI





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Re: HOME HEATING COAL (and cars that "shouldn't" be in K&C's book)

al_brown03
 

The original question in this thread was about *home heating* coal;
how much of that was anthracite?

How coal came to New England depended on *where* in New England one
meant. Two years ago we discussed the Alburgh, Vt., coal trestle at
which the Rutland received coal for transshipment. That coal didn't
come by barge, I don't think :-), but in hoppers from many roads. See
messages 43288 and 43309 (among many in that time frame).

The answer to a lot of these questions about routing seems to be "it
depends" ... on local circumstances in many cases. Frustrating yet
fascinating.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:


Actually, most of the barged coal was consumed along the
coastlines. And I
did say "most" coal, not all.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...>
Tim,

Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal (N&W,
C&O or
VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by
collier or
barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from
there.


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Tim O'Connor
 

Actually, most of the barged coal was consumed along the coastlines. And I
did say "most" coal, not all.

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Garth G. Groff" <ggg9y@...>
Tim,

Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal (N&W, C&O or
VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by collier or
barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from there.


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

bill_d_goat
 

--- In STMFC@..., Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...> wrote:

Posted by: "Tim O'Connor" >> Malcolm Laughlin wrote: "You would
never see a foreign hopper being loaded on the
C&O or N&W."
C&O ran large numbers of NRBX (the other Berwind, New River Berwind)
on its main to Newport News. IIRC, these were also loaded at coal mines
served by the C&O, not off line mines. Would NRBX be considered
"foreign"?, Or are private owner cars not included in that category?
Bill Williams


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

John,

Where were the limestone quarries in the Shenandoah Valley? And what time frame. There's lots of limestone there, but I can't think of any large quarrying operations served by the B&O or its connections.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

boyds1949 wrote:

Yes. B&O moved a large amount of limestone and dolomite to the Ohio Valley from eastern West Virginia and the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. Blast Furnace and Open Hearth flux moved in open hoppers. Lime and processed dolomite moved in covered hoppers and containers.

John King


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Tim,

Your statement doesn't account for so-called Tidewater coal (N&W, C&O or VGN), at least some of which went north from Hampton Roads by collier or barge to New York or Boston, then was reshipped by rail from there. We've discussed these movements before on this group. Nearly all of this would have been bituminous coal. I don't know how much was sold as steamer coal versus home heating coal. This traffic would partly account for hopper fleets owned by the CV, B&M and New Haven.

At least some of this traffic still goes on, or at least did until recently, now destined only for power plants. When I was in the Coast Guard at Portsmouth, Virginia, during 1982-83 I did the news releases for the infamous case of a collier called the Marine Electric which went down off Maryland. This was, of course, outside of our time frame.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

timboconnor@... wrote:

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New England
customers.

Tim O'Connor


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...>

ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME HEATING COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN THE LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN

Yahoo! Groups Links




Re: HOME HEATING COAL

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

This is more of a question than an answer.

Didn't a couple of New England roads have coal import port
facilities? (Example, BAR at Searsport) This would have allowed coal
originating on roads such as N&W and C&O to arrive by water and be
delivered in home road cars.

John King


--- In STMFC@..., timboconnor@... wrote:

Joel

All of them DELIVERED home heating coal.

Coal ORIGINATED outside New England -- in Pennsylvania, Ohio,
West Virginia, Maryland, Virginia, Kentucky, etc. So most of the
coal
would arrive in non-New England railroad hopper cars or gondolas
or even, yes, box cars. Only D&H and NYC served coal mines and
would have been in a position to deliver coal to directly New
England
customers.

Tim O'Connor


-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "joel norman" <mec-bml@...>
ANYONE CLEAR THIS UP:
1940'S NEW ENGLAND....WHICH RAILROADS WOULD HAVE HAULED HOME
HEATING
COAL TO DEALERS IN NEW ENGLAND?SEEN MANY A PHOTO WITH A B&O(LARGE
B&O)
HOPPER IN A LOCAL ''POCKET''WHO ELSE WOULD HAVE THIS BUSINESS IN
THE
LATE 30'S INTO EARLY 50'S???
IS THERE A PHOTO FILE SOMEWERE SHOWING THESE CARS VS.HO MODELS????
THANKS
JOEL NORMAN

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