Date   

Re: Limestone for the Steel Industry (was. . . Kline & Culotta's book)

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

All,

In an earlier message, someone mentioned how lucky we are to have the
container gons that were used to transport some of the lime and
dolomite based products. Us B&O modelers are NOT lucky. The 50 foot
B&O class O-27BA gons used by the B&O for container service are not
available and I do not know of a good kitbash candidate. Although
the class number might suggest the car is similar to the USRA gons
offered by Westerfield, the car is 5 ft longer and much different in
apperance. (Hint! Hint! Hint! to kit manufacturers)

Most of the discussion has been from the point of view of operations
at the iron and steel mills. Since I am trying to model the
limestone and dolomite producing end of the supply line my
perspective will be a bit different. It has been established that
the primary tonnage was in raw stone (limestone or dolomite)for blast
furnice and open hearth flux. This is certainly reflected in
production in the Shenandoah Valley. For instance, at Millville, the
largest shipper (US Steel) produced only raw stone, the second
largest shipper (J&L) produced mostly raw stone with some burnt
product. The third plant (Standard Lime and Stone) only produced
processed products which they shipped in boxcars, covered hoppers and
containers. Keep in mind that this company supplied thier products
to a large portion of the industry so even a large number of cars
leaving the plant in eastern West Virginia would result in only one
or two cars, if any, arriving at any given mill.

My question: What was the processed dolomite used for? I think the
primary product was called "Furnace Lime" and was used to line open
hearth furnaces. Is that correct? Also, the plant produced a
couple of magniesium oxide based products called Stayset and Stacrete
which were, I think, used as furnace cement. How was that product
used?

John King


Rutland 10000 series Hoppers (was Re: HOME HEATING COAL)

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Rome Romano wrote:
"I remember Jeff English telling me that to build a correct Rutland
10000 I had to start with a Westerfield 3 bay and cut it down,
as a two bay was not available at the time. This was shortly after
the Tichy "USRA" was produced with the wide middle panel."

Additionally, you had to cut it down in height as well. I remeber Andy
Clermont did one many years ago from using the Tichy USRA twin; more
recently, Bill Badger reworked a Bowser PRR Class GLA:
http://users.rcn.com/jimdu4/ModelingTheRutland/BadgersHopper10009.htm


Ben Hom


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

B.T. Charles
 

"Armand Premo" <armprem@...> wrote:

The Rutland 10000 series hoppers WERE NOT USRA hoppers.
They were built earlier and were very similar to the
Pennsy GLAs.If you check the dimensions
you will see the differences>Armand Premo
Armand,

thank you for the correction. While I am not a rivet counter, when
posting I should be more accurate. The builders date I have readily
at hand is 1915, the measurements are in a safe place... buried in my
archives. I remember Jeff English telling me that to build a correct
Rutland 10000 I had to start with a Westerfield 3 bay and cut it down,
as a two bay was not available at the time. This was shortly after
the Tichy "USRA" was produced with the wide middle panel.

Rome


Re: IM ATSF Caswell gons

charles slater
 

The Intermountain people at last months convention in O.K. City told me that the undecorated kits would be available in a couple of months once all their pre orders were filled for the decorated and
assembled models.
In my opinion the color is too light and looks like milk chocolate. Mineral brown is a darker color.
Charles Slater


From: timboconnor@comcast.net
Reply-To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] IM ATSF Caswell gons
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 16:48:18 +0000


How is the color? In the photos they look kind of dark to me.

Does Intermountain plan to release kits?

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Bill McCoy" <wpmccoy@comcast.net>
I got one of the new IM ATSF Caswell gons (AB brake version)from Andy
and it looks terriffic. Still looking thuourh the archives I see no
comment on this model. I'm not an ATSF expert. Is it as good as I think
it is?

Bill McCoy
Jax, FL
_________________________________________________________________
http://newlivehotmail.com


Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

List,

If the material Albert is looking for is in book, or printed form, then I too would like to purchase a copy.

Fred Freitas

Albert & Charlene Spor <albchar@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi All
How does one go about obtaining "The Wood Sheathed Car of the FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator Fleet"?
Thanks
Albert Spor


Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?

Greg Martin
 

Albert and all,



Bill does monitor this list and I would suppose if you put out a call (Internet calling) I would suppose he would reply. If no response I could have him email you.



Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Albert & Charlene Spor <albchar@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:32 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?







Hi All
How does one go about obtaining "The Wood Sheathed Car of the FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator Fleet"?
Thanks
Albert Spor







________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


Re: Limestone for the Steel Industry (was. . . Kline & Culotta's book)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Philip Dove wrote:
Isn't Lime not just powdered limestone, surely it has been fired or baked so that it becomes a rather caustic alkali.
Exactly. Lime, strictly, is calcium oxide, a most vigorously hygroscopic materia. What is sold as "slaked lime" is calcium hydroxide. Limestone is a mineral, thus not exactly any chemical composition, but its fundament is calcium carbonate, which by itself is called calcite. Roasting it drives off carbon dioxide and leaves you with lime (kinda simplified explanation <g>). There is usually some silica in limestone (the more there is, usually the harder it is, and the harder to roast it to oxide), and often iron oxides or other additional minerals.
When limestone undergoes metamorphism, it becomes marble. Dolomite isn't limestone, but is calcium magnesium carbonate. Whether the magnesium is good or bad for your steel slag (the destination of the limestone, lime, or dolomite) depends on the rest of the chemistry.
One can, of course, google these terms, or look in Wikipedia.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


Re: VGN/CO interchange

Tim O'Connor
 

But Bill, why build a connection at all then?

The aerial photo on Mapquest shows standing hopper cars there.
I didn't mention it before, since the satellite photo was taken after
1960...

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "vgnry" <vgnry212@comcast.net>

There was a connection between the C&O and VGN at Deepwater; a very
steep one. Doubtful that loaded coal trains would have been
interchanged there, versus Gilbert or the Winding Gulf line where
there were a number of jointly-served mines. In fact, I doubt that it
was technically an interchange point, given the grade and the C&O
layout on the river.


Re: northeast US hopper movements

nfriespf <nfriespf@...>
 

Ton was probably a poor choice of words. Anyway in 53 the NKP received
94,498 loaded cars from the C&O at Fostoria. They also received
another 11,000 from the PRR at Bellevue (my hometown) mostly N&W
hoppers.
N Fries

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

N Fries wrote:
The NKP did recieve a ton for coal from the C&O at Fostoria in the
40's . . .
That doesn't sound like it would tax even a single hopper <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: VGN hoppers on C&O, C&O/VGN hoppers

vgnry <vgnry212@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Denny Anspach <danspach@...> wrote:

This thread reminds me of the oft-stated dogma that the VGN's
battleship gons never left home rails. However, the VGN diagram book
indicates that two gons #'s 19504 and 19326 were destroyed on the
NYC (I know, I know, but the NYC location is not specified) .
A photo surfaced recently of a VGN gon on the empty tail track of a
rotary unloader at Presque Isle, Toledo, punching a gaping hole in the
dogma!

Bill McClure
Richmond


Re: Cars that shouldn't be in Kline & Culotta's book VGN/CO interchange

vgnry <vgnry212@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...> wrote:

Posted by: "timboconnor@..." So my guess is that
those VGN hoppers came via that line and were interchanged to the C&O at
Deep Water.
===========

Close, but no cigar !
Problem with that guess is that the VGN crossed above the C&O and
there was apparently no room for a connection. Here's a link to the
topo map of Deepwater, WV.
http://terraserver.microsoft.com/image.aspx?T=2&S=12&Z=17&X=595&Y=5274&W=3

But you've again aroused my curiosity, and I'll have to consult an
ORER to see where the C&O and VGN did interchange.
There was a connection between the C&O and VGN at Deepwater; a very
steep one. Doubtful that loaded coal trains would have been
interchanged there, versus Gilbert or the Winding Gulf line where
there were a number of jointly-served mines. In fact, I doubt that it
was technically an interchange point, given the grade and the C&O
layout on the river.

Bill McClure
Richmond


Re: IMRC doesn't know what it is doing?

brianehni <behni@...>
 

Not to mention purple Chateau Martin cars (as opposed to the correct magenta), and orange
stripes on Rock Island freight F-units (as opposed to the correct red).

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, asychis@... wrote:

Oh, don't get me started! Ed and I have one or two stories regarding ART
reefers we could share, but Mike would probably put us in jail.

Jerry Michels


Re: VGN hoppers on C&O, C&O/VGN hoppers

Denny Anspach <danspach@...>
 

This thread reminds me of the oft-stated dogma that the VGN's battleship gons never left home rails. However, the VGN diagram book indicates that two gons #'s 19504 and 19326 were destroyed on the NYC (I know, I know, but the NYC location is not specified) .

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento


Re: [PRRPro] decals

Philip Dove <philip.dove@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12 July 2007 06:44
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: [PRRPro] decals


Richard Hendrickson wrote:
> Peter, you simply weren't paying attention. . . Your claim that those
> cars never, or hardly ever,
> turned up in So. Calif. in general or Taylor Yard in particular, is
> contradicted by a large volume of evidence.

Yep. And I grew up (or failed to) in Glendale also, and not only
saw but PHOTOGRAPHED Pennsy cars, on the main alongside San Fernando
Road and also in Taylor, not to mention in the Burbank local. Golly,
Peter, you weren't smoking those funny cigarettes in those days, were
you? [just joking of course]

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press,

Perhaps Peter didn't recognise the cars because they were letterd with inaccurate decals, using wrong typefaces and keystone styles!

Regards Philip Dove



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Re: Limestone for the Steel Industry (was. . . Kline & Culotta's book)

Philip Dove <philip.dove@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Gatwood, Elden J SAD
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12 July 2007 12:18
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re:Limestone for the Steel Industry (was. . . Kline & Culotta's book)
Isn't Lime not just powdered limestone, surely it has been fired or baked so that it becomes a rather caustic alkali.
Dolomite is the type of Limestone you find in my area, I have always understood it was not popular as a form of limestone because it was so hard. it could not be easily squared up and dressed as a building stone. What it was like as flux and how it differs chemically from softer limestones I don't know.
Regards Philip Dove

From my discussions with steel workers, and observations over many years of
integrated plants, it is true that the ratio of limestone to lime in industry
use was very large. Limestone was one of the three "big" ingredients in hot
metal making (iron), as flux stone, sometimes substituted or mixed with
dolomite, depending on the properties of the iron desired, so they typically
brought lots of it in, in open hoppers, but since it was heavier than coal,
also not filled to the top. I remember most of it coming in in twins, rather
than the larger triples or quads, which seemed, in my area, to be hoarded for
bituminous. B&O and RDG had dedicated twins for "stone" loading that went to
Bethlehem Steel, ands perhaps elsewhere.

Lime was ground to powder off-site, and as Tony stated, sometimes bagged. I
also remember it coming in in covered hoppers or, like powdered dolomite, in
bulk containers in gons.

Take care,

Elden Gatwood

________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Anthony Thompson
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 12:46 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re:Limestone for the Steel Industry (was. . . Kline &
Culotta's book)

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
> Lime or limestone for blast furnaces. We're looking at taking some of
> that Shenadoah Valley product originating on our Waynesboro Branch
> going to Hurlin Steel at Charleston, WV. Was it hauled in covered
> hoppers or open top cars ?

Limestone is fine in open-top cars. Lime tends to absorb water
happily, so covered hoppers would certainly be preferred. Of course,
being used in smaller amounts, pallets of 100-pound bags are possible
too. (When charging such things, usually you throw in the pallet, paper
bags, strapping, and everything.)

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
<mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: [PRRPro] decals

Philip Dove <philip.dove@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12 July 2007 06:44
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: [PRRPro] decals


Richard Hendrickson wrote:
> Peter, you simply weren't paying attention. . . Your claim that those
> cars never, or hardly ever,
> turned up in So. Calif. in general or Taylor Yard in particular, is
> contradicted by a large volume of evidence.

Yep. And I grew up (or failed to) in Glendale also, and not only
saw but PHOTOGRAPHED Pennsy cars, on the main alongside San Fernando
Road and also in Taylor, not to mention in the Burbank local. Golly,
Peter, you weren't smoking those funny cigarettes in those days, were
you? [just joking of course]

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press,


Or perhaps he didn't recognise the carswere Pennsy because they were lettered with the incorrect decals! (ref Eldon Gatwood)

Philip Dove


Re: [PRRPro] decals

branchline@...
 

There are numerous shots of PRR cars coupled to N&W hoppers out east. We can therefore assume that they headed west that way too (over Sherman Hill at night of course).

Sorry Mike....

Bill Schneider

----- Original Message -----
From: tgregmrtn@aol.com
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 2:31 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: [PRRPro] decals



You guys din't get it.. they must have been moving them at night while ou were all sleeping...

Greg

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Madden <tgmadden@worldnet.att.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 11:43 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: [PRRPro] decals

Tim wrote:
> I lived in Texas and California from 1953 to 1960, and I have no
> memory of ever seeing a freight train at all. Therefore I must
> conclude there were no freight trains operating near San Antonio,
> San Bernadino, Colton, or Anaheim at that time.

Careful, Tim - I was stationed in various locations in TX and CA
between 1957 and 1960 and never saw you. Would hate to draw any
conclusions about that!

Peter has probably taken enough abuse on this. I'm willing to grant
that he never noticed any PRR cars, but that's it. That's what makes
this list so valuable - no assertion goes unchallenged.

Tom Madden

__________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


Re: HOME HEATING COAL

armprem
 

As mentioned in a previous post the Rutland stopped sending their hoppers off-line to mines in 1923.Notewothy was the relatively large number of hopper bottom gons on the roster numbering some105 in 1930.Foreign hoppers were emptied and the coal was stored in a large coaling facility at Alburgh , in company hoppers,gons,and at times , on the ground.Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "William Bryk" <wmbryk@gmail.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 9:29 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: HOME HEATING COAL


This seems to explain the surprisingly large Rutland hopper car fleet,
doesn't it? It always seemed a bit unusual for a Vermont carrier to have so
many hoppers.

Regards,
William Bryk

On 7/11/07, Armand Premo <armprem@surfglobal.net> wrote:

Gasification plants were still continued burning cheaper soft
coal.RutlandTrain #10 brought much coal to Vermont via the NYCinterchange
at
Norwood,NY.TheD&H brought coal to Center Rutland and Rouses Point,NY.The
Central Vermont may have picked up some coal at New London.Does anyone
have
evidence?Armand Premo
----- Original Message -----
From: "Malcolm Laughlin" <mlaughlinnyc@yahoo.com<mlaughlinnyc%40yahoo.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com <STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:22 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: HOME HEATING COAL

Rather than make responses to all of the posts on this, I'll just
summarize my reactions to them.

I believe most of the home heating coal in New England was anthracite,
which was preferred because it made less smoke. The closest coal mines
to
New England were the anthracite mines in the Scranton area. To get
bituminous to New England would have been a much longer haul, the
nearest
being the Clearfield district.

As for marks, originating roads were Erie, DL&W, LV, CNJ, PRR, NYO&W,
D&H
and RDG, but not B&O. However, since B&O shared it's route to New York
with RDG and CNJ, it would not be surprising that their cars would be
coming into NE with anthracite. The other highly likely foreign mark
from
those mines would be NYC.

As for routes and destinations:

- The furthest east junctions of the anthracite roads were Rutland, VT,
Mechanicville, NY and Maybrook, NY. That means that all of it had to
move
on NH, NYC, B&M or RUT, but destinations could be anywhere on CV, MEC,
BAR, GT and the short lines.

- Every town in New england would have received anthracite loads as
there
was a coal dealer in every town of any size - like fuel oil dealers
today.

As for that barge coal, it was mostly from bituminous areas, and I
believe it went mainly to power plants. It's interesting to note that
most of the large power plants in CT and RI and around NYC are on
navigable waterways.

One notable exception. When I was a small boy, I would look out of my
father's office on the 55th floor of 60 Wall and watch the cars rolling
through the CNJ car dumper. Pretty strong evidence of barging of
anthracite also.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478





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Re: [PRRPro] decals

Tim O'Connor
 

LOL. Actually Fred I still remember it. My Dad selected a Union Pacific
Athearn F7 (rb drive), a Revell UP wood caboose (CA-1), a Revell PRR
gondola (G31), and six or seven other assorted freight cars. No doubt
this was the first PRR freight car that I can remember.

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@yahoo.com>

Tim >> If your first Athearn set was missing a PRR car you are due a refund !!
Fred Freitas
timboconnor@comcast.net wrote:

I lived in Texas and California from 1953 to 1960, and I have no memory
of ever seeing a freight train at all. Therefore I must conclude there were
no freight trains operating near San Antonio, San Bernadino, Colton, or
Anaheim at that time. (And yes, I was absolutely crazy about trains during
this period and even got my first 4x8 Athearn train set during that time.)

Tim O'Connor


Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?

Albert & Charlene Spor
 

Hi All
How does one go about obtaining "The Wood Sheathed Car of the FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator Fleet"?
Thanks
Albert Spor

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