Date   

Re: FGEX reefers

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Garth Groff wrote:
"The April 2007 issue C&O HISTORY, THE CHESAPEAKE & OHIO HISTORICAL
MAGAZINE is almost entirely devoted to the C&O's part of Fruit
Growers Express history. In addition to a general introduction to C&O
reefer operations up to joining FGE, the article is mainly about the
icing platform at Clifton Forge, Virginia. It is rich in diagrams,
photos and operating details (including notes on regular icing of Swift
cars). I was particularly interested to see a builder's photo of C&O
reefer 81045, one of 50 cars built by AC&F in 1923 (which later became
FGEX 11301-11349). This is just Part 1 of a series by Al Kresse."

Garth, how do you obtain single issues from the C&OHS? They are not
listed in their online company store. They do have a sample issue
posted - this one contains an article on backdating the Walthers HO
scale 90700-series caboose:
http://www.cohs.org/magazine/cohistory-dec02.pdf


Ben Hom


Re: VGN hoppers on C&O, C&O/VGN hoppers

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Obviously there were jointly served mines in Appalachia. I have no idea
about the number of these, however.

Mike Brock
=========

All of the mines on the NF&G were jointly served by C&O and NYC.

In PA, all mines on the Cherry Tree & Dixonville were jointly served by PRR and NYC.



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Don Worthy <don_worthy@...> wrote:
"...I've had bad luck trying to find articles in RMJ and in MRC. Some
have wanted as much for a old mag. as some books cost...."

The February 2005 issue of RMJ containing Bill Welch's "WFE and FGE 40-
foot wood reefers from InterMountain models" is available from the
publisher for $6.95 postpaid:
http://www.railmodeljournal.com/mainsite/Pages/backissues.html


"But, I can get Ted's book. It should be available."

http://www.speedwitch.com/Journal.htm


Ben Hom


Re: [PRRPro] decals

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

It does remind us that oral history is often inaccurate,
as I know from interviewing railroad officials--their memory for
specific facts was atrocious.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
================

As a former railroad managment man, I think Tony's just made an important point. It's much easier to remember overall concepts of the operation than very specific facts. I will often have a correct general impression of what happened but not accurately recall specific facts that contribute to that impression. Being corrected on many email lists has contributed a lot to correcting my memories.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Broadway Limited

Westerfield <westerfield@...>
 

Turner Classic Movies plays this film from time to time. Not much freight car action in it but it's the only Hollywood film I know of that was made with the cooperation of Pennsy. Featured are streamlined K4s, D16sb and GG1. Shots include the D16sb pulling the Limited over the Rockville bridge and pacing the K4s. I burned a DVD of it last Sunday and will be happy to make copies for a limited number of list members. - Al


Re: [PRRPro] decals

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

You made my day, Philip!

________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Philip Dove
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 5:26 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: [PRRPro] decals

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com <mailto:STMFC%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: 12 July 2007 06:44
Subject: Re: [STMFC] RE: [PRRPro] decals

Richard Hendrickson wrote:
Peter, you simply weren't paying attention. . . Your claim that those
cars never, or hardly ever,
turned up in So. Calif. in general or Taylor Yard in particular, is
contradicted by a large volume of evidence.
Yep. And I grew up (or failed to) in Glendale also, and not only
saw but PHOTOGRAPHED Pennsy cars, on the main alongside San Fernando
Road and also in Taylor, not to mention in the Burbank local. Golly,
Peter, you weren't smoking those funny cigarettes in those days, were
you? [just joking of course]

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press,

Perhaps Peter didn't recognise the cars because they were letterd with
inaccurate decals, using wrong typefaces and keystone styles!

Regards Philip Dove

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Re: VGN/CO interchange

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Posted by: "timboconnor@comcast.net" But Bill, why build a connection at all then?

The aerial photo on Mapquest shows standing hopper cars there.
I didn't mention it before, since the satellite photo was taken after
1960...
==========================

I'm looking at a Mapquest aerial photo of Deepwater right now Tim. I see the VGN crossing the C&O at a 90 degree angle and no connection, or even the kind of dark curved line that usually gives evidence of a former connection. Can you give me a link to the one you mention above ?



Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?

benjaminfrank_hom <b.hom@...>
 

Albert Spor asked:
"How does one go about obtaining 'The Wood Sheathed Car of the
FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator Fleet'?"

Bill apparently hasn't had a chance to answer all of your inquiries
yet; however, we have to dispel some misconceptions right now. THIS
IS NOT A BOOK (at least not yet). "The Wood Sheathed Car of the
FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator Fleet" is Bill's 54-page handout
from his clinic given at Naperville in 2002 and subsequently repeated
several times at other PM meets since then. It contains a some
observations on the FGEX/WFEX/BREX wood-sheathed reefer fleet
(including comparison with the other major fleets), a historical
timeline of "Our Companies", information tables, a breakdown of cars
by underframe design, a summary of paint and lettering schemes, and
ORER excerpts.

Because of its size, Bill has been charging $3 a copy at his clinics
to offset his reproduction costs; however to my knowledge, he hasn't
offered any copies via mail.


Ben Hom


Waaaaaay off topic (was: decals)

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Boston driving is waaaay off topic, but what the Hell.

Did you know that there is a coded number in the bottom right hand
corner of a Massachusetts registration. It is your car's "Bluff
Potential". It is the weight of your car divided by its apparent
value. At an intersection, the right of way belongs to the car with
the higher bluff potential!

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Schuyler Larrabee
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 12:43 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] Re: [PRRPro] decals




For Tom >> If you survived driving in Boston, then you have
been to Hades and returned. That is the only city on the est
coast where speed limit signs are mere suggestions; turn
signals have been replaced with the left mirror glance; and
everyone tells everyone else they were there first. [ hand
signals, not markers]

Fred Freitas
Hey, I resemble that remark! Really, it's not hard to drive in Boston.
Simply assume that you will
get from here to there without trouble, without interference, and
quickly. Do not look left. Do
not look right. When it's red, well, you CAN stop, especially if there
are rumors of gendarmerie in
the vicinity, but hey, if nobody's coming, well, y'know, be CAREFUL,
but again, no left, no right.
Yellow does not mean stop. Doesn't mean speed up either, but it does
NOT mean stop. Green means
this woman in front of you, the one talking on the cell phone and the
dog in her lap panting out the
driver's window, while she holds an ice cream cone in her stick shift
car (you think I'm kidding?)
should get the hell outta the way.

See? No trouble. Easy.

It's da Joisey drivers you gotta watch out for. . . .

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!




Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits

George R. Stilwell, Jr. <GRSJr@...>
 

I'd like to buy a copy as well.

George Stilwell


Re: VGN/CO interchange

vgnry <vgnry212@...>
 

Tim,

The VGN was constructed between 1898 and 1907 to connect with the C&O
at Deepwater and the N&W at Matoaka, WV, to the south. The intention
was to play one off against the other with regard to rates. That
scheme didn't work (the N&W and C&O agreed to fix rates) so the VGN
went east to Tidewater and across the river to connect with the NYC at
Alloy.

I didn't mean to imply that there was never any interchange, only that
it is unlikely that loaded coal trains of the late steam era would
have been interchanged there.

Bill McClure
Richmond

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, timboconnor@... wrote:


But Bill, why build a connection at all then?

The aerial photo on Mapquest shows standing hopper cars there.
I didn't mention it before, since the satellite photo was taken after
1960...

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "vgnry" <vgnry212@...>

There was a connection between the C&O and VGN at Deepwater; a very
steep one. Doubtful that loaded coal trains would have been
interchanged there, versus Gilbert or the Winding Gulf line where
there were a number of jointly-served mines. In fact, I doubt that it
was technically an interchange point, given the grade and the C&O
layout on the river.


Re: Steel Shipments; coil; sheet, etc.

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

John;



Coiling thin steel sheet was a technology invented for the sole reason that
flat sheet had to be cut into relatively short sheets for shipment, and the
users (car and appliance makers) found it inconvenient and wasteful to have
to keep stopping the assembly lines to remove the too-short end of one sheet
and put in place a new sheet. Rolling it in long sheets allowed both better
quality control at the makers end, and less damage in transit,
hypothetically, because the edges of the sheet were not as exposed in a coil
(those at the "lead" still were, but you get the point). They began rolling
into coil, at first small coils, in the early 50's.



The trouble began with how to ship it. Initially, finished cold-rolled steel
sheet was strapped into a custom pallet, and put into a boxcar for weather
protection, or if shipped as unfinished hot strip, shipped open on its side
in the ends of a gon. Some shippers had cold-rolled finished sheet coils
shipped on their sides and covered with canvas tarps. This lasted into 1955.



There are lots of good illustrations of this out there in the literature, and
drawings of how they secured it in various cars, in the AAR loading rules for
various dates. It is very interesting reading.



Coils shipped open in gons had custom-made cradles created to keep them from
rolling or toppling over and sliding, and knocking out car ends, which they
did (I have read correspondence on this). They would block the entire
interior of a gon, and made cradles out of heavy timbers to hold each coil in
place. Obviously, it got labor-intensive and expensive to do this for each
shipment, and given you were not using dedicated cars, the end user or the
railroad would toss out all the expensive blocking and they would have to
re-create it again for the next shipment.



In 1955 there was a flurry of design by NKP, PRR and others (I have some of
the patent paperwork), for dedicated steel shipment cars with
specially-designed blocking equipment semi-permanently installed that would
be back hauled empty. One of these was a "coil car" (a name that came
later). These consisted of gons or flats with cradles and covers. The gons
actually were designed to have skids inside that dissipated energy by sliding
across the rough floor, guided by guide timbers, with end bumpers to cushion
against end impacts. Erie and others used flats with rigid mounts. The gons
or flats could also be fitted with covers for weather protection. There was
a sizable fleet of "skid and cover" cars running around by 1957, and the PRR
had 310 by Oct 1956. They were in extremely high demand by that time by
USSteel, Bethlehem, J&L, and others, who made large steel coil expressly for
the automotive and appliance industries. Eventually, Erie, NKP, P&WV, NYC,
P&LE, PRR, B&O, B&LE, URR had skid and cover-equipped "coil cars". They
lasted into the 70's, but that is beyond our scope here.



The purpose-built "coil cars" of the mid-60's are also a later discussion.



There were also numerous gons fitted with three-piece Stanray covers, even
"Dutch Roof" covers, on roads like the RI and WP, the former over cradle
systems designed for either small coils or bundled sheet, the latter over
large coils. These were also very popular, and additional gons were always
being converted to meet demand. Some had their sides raised so they could
accommodate taller bundles or larger coils. WP, EJ&E, C&EI, PRR, B&O and NYC
had cars of this type, too.



Neither car took the place of box cars used in palletized coil shipment. The
PRR actually had a fleet of insulated X53's in coil service, and these are
still found today. They also had a number of X37A and X37B so equipped, but
for shipment of hot coil. These had double flooring and 24" steel sheet
riveted along the interior bottom of the sides and ends to keep the car
intact. Hot coil service was VERY hard on cars, as many NYC gons show. They
all served together.



No one has ever done a good model of the important skid and cover or roofed
steel shipment cars. ConCor tried, using their ubiquitous mill gon, with new
skids and covers, but they were very crude, and not really correct for any
one road. You could use any old box car for the latter.



Just to give you an idea, the PRR had the following, cars equipped:



Steel

Type

Note

Car Numbers

Car Type

# Cars



Cold Rolled Bar, GBSR

13

375774, 375910, 375945, 376704, 376839

G31d

5

Eqpt w/four movable bulkheads and 3-section roof for shipment of cold rolled
bar or tin plate in coils on pallets

Bundled Steel, GBR

111

376037, 376076, 376755, 376782, 376856

G31d

5

Eqpt w/extended sides and ends and removable roof for shipment of steel in
bundles. Dimensions: IH 5'; OW 10'5"; OH from rail to extreme width 6'11" and
top of sides 8'11", to top of running board 9'10", cap. 2,504 cu. Ft.

Bundled Steel,

118

385072-385321

G36c

250

Eqpt w/extended sides and ends and three-section removable roof

Bundled Steel, GBR

152

385000-385071

385522-386153

386154-386699

615000-617599

1

3

104

206

G36c

G36c

G36c

G36c

Eqpt w/extended sides and ends and three-section removable roof for shipment
of steel in bundles

Coil Strip Steel, XMP

Hot Rolled Steel

31

64400-65399

66400-66899

66900-67399

X37b

X37a

X37b

62

21

10

Eqpt w/double flooring and 24 inch steel plates around inside of car for
hauling coils of hot rolled steel

Hot Rolled Steel, FMS

60

473859, 473880, 474025, 474130, 474152, 474512, 474748, 474765, 474922,
474943, 475259

F30a

11

Eqpt w/low side rails for hauling hot rolled steel

Hot Rolled Steel, FMS

67

473765-475265

F30a

40

Eqpt w/double flooring for hauling hot rolled steel

Coil Strip Steel, GBS

10

375854, 375935, 376062, 376213, 376397, 376515, 376690, 376773

G31d

8

Eqpt w/coil pallet guides and wooden bumper beams across car ends

Coil Strip Steel, GBS

14

375750-376949, 376950-377449

G31d

G31e

209

302

Eqpt for hauling coil strip steel

Coil Strip Steel, GBS

78

375977, 376240, 376262, 376943

G31d

4

Eqpt w/stainless steel skids with covers

Coil Strip Steel, GBS

90

344500-348999

G27

29

Eqpt for hauling coil strip steel

Coil Strip Steel, FMS

98

475300-475549

F30d

20

Eqpt w/racks for hauling coil strip steel

Coil Strip Steel,

101

385322-385521,

385635, 386025

G36d

G36a

200

2

Eqpt w/skids and covers for shipment of coil strip steel

Coil Strip Steel,

Palletized

125

21195-21199

X53

5

Eqpt w/nine (9) belt rail Evans "DF" equipment. Cars are insulated and are
equipped for application of heaters. Equipped with 2 3/8 inch yellow pine
floor covered with 1/8 inch super diamond plate. Equipped with load
restraining floor snubbers for use in hauling palletized coiled steel.

Tin Plate, FMS

68

474020, 474114, 474320

F30a

3

Eqpt w/special fittings for hauling tin plate



You can see there was a lot of variety in dedicated steel-hauling cars!



Yes, I am getting around to writing an article on these cars, but I think you
may see one on B&O pretty soon from Mike Shylanski!



Oh, Chooch makes a marvelous little palletized coil load, for your box cars.



Have fun!



Elden Gatwood






________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
boyds1949
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 1:20 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [STMFC] Steel Shipments



Prior to the use of the "non steam era" coil cars, how was sheet steel
shipped? Were coils shipped in boxcars? Or was the sheet steel
simply shipped flat in gons and/or boxcars?

John King


Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

And how do the rest of us get a copy? Do we all "put out a call"?

If Bill is monitoring this list, consider this a "call" and tell us all
how we can get your book.

regards,

Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
tgregmrtn@aol.com
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 6:59 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?


Albert and all,



Bill does monitor this list and I would suppose if you put out a call
(Internet calling) I would suppose he would reply. If no response I
could have him email you.



Greg Martin


-----Original Message-----
From: Albert & Charlene Spor <albchar@comcast.net>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 12:32 pm
Subject: [STMFC] Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?







Hi All
How does one go about obtaining "The Wood Sheathed Car of the
FGEX/WFEX/BREX Freight Refrigerator Fleet"?
Thanks
Albert Spor







_______________________________________________________________________
_
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free
from AOL at AOL.com.







Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: [PRRPro] decals

Spen Kellogg <spenkell@...>
 

Anthony Thompson wrote:

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:


Hey, I resemble that remark! Really, it's not hard to drive in
Boston. . .
It's da Joisey drivers you gotta watch out for. . .

Man, I've driven both places and that's a tough call. (Shiver. . .

I don't know, Tony....... There was the time (back in 1965 when I was
single and could afford it) when a surfboard attacked my Porsche on a
California freeway.

Regards, Spen Kellogg


Re: Steel Shipments

Larry Kline
 

John King asked:
Prior to the use of the "non steam era" coil cars, how was sheet
steel shipped? Were coils shipped in boxcars? Or was the sheet steel
simply shipped flat in gons and/or boxcars?

Here is an edited version of my STMFC post 379 from Jan 2001:
Tin plated steel coils, and many other steel products, were shipped
in box cars (and even reefers) during the steam era. The following
1966 data is from the John Moore collection. The numbers in the table
are the percentage distribution of tons shipped, by car types, for
the commodity groups listed. Note that for tin mill products, box
cars accounted for 69.5% of the tonnage shipped, and reefers
accounted for 21.7%. I assume that the Tin Mill Products category
includes tin-plated steel coils and probably also includes galvanized
steel coils. Weirton Steel was still shipping coils in boxcars when I
worked on a project there in 1994-95.

Box Reefer Gon Flat TOFC
Tin Mill Products 69.5 21.7 6.8 2.0 0
Metal Cans 93.4 1.8 0 0 4.8
Steel Shipping Pails & Barrels 91.3 0 5.8 2.9
Steel Wire 77.5 10.1 0 0 12.4
Iron & Steel Castings 62.9 0 24.5 12.6 0
Iron & Steel Forgings 50.4 0 26.5 23.1 0
Sheet Metal Roofing & Siding 15.9 0 37.2 46.9 0
Metal Tanks 10.3 0 14.3 75.4 0
Iron & Steel Cast Pipe 4.2 2.3 35.5 58.0 0
Metal Construction Materials 3.8 0 90.3 5.9 0
Structural Metal Products 0.6 0 87.2 12.2 0

The Worley and Poellet P&WV book states that P&WV's 1200 series
boxcars, built in 1946 with 8 foot doors, were purchased for
merchandise and steel coil service. (p187) The WP purchased special
29 foot coil gons in 1951. See:
http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/gon.html

Covered gondolas were not used for coiled steel service until late in
the steam era. The earliest cars I'm aware of are covered gons on the
NKP (Railway Age, June 6, 1955, p30), PRR (Railway Age, Oct 17, 1955,
p39), and P&WV (P&WV 1955 Stockholders Report, p and Worley and
Poellet P&WV book, p219). The PRR file on coil covers for gondolas in
the PRRT&HS archives starts in June 1954.

As far as I know, special purpose cars like the Walthers cushioned
coil car were not built until after the steam era. For example, the
James Kinkaid article in Oct 96 Mainline Modeler describes Evcans
cars that were first built in 1964.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Re: Steel Shipments

Tim O'Connor
 

EJ&E had hundreds of box cars assigned to tinplate (canstock)
service in the 1950's but I don't know if it was flat sheet or
coiled.

At 7/13/2007 01:20 AM Friday, you wrote:
Prior to the use of the "non steam era" coil cars, how was sheet steel
shipped? Were coils shipped in boxcars? Or was the sheet steel
simply shipped flat in gons and/or boxcars?

John King


Re: Steel Shipments

Tim O'Connor
 

Coil cars were around at the end of the steam era. The earliest
example I can find at this moment is SP in 1957, but there must
be earlier examples.

John King wrote:
Prior to the use of the "non steam era" coil cars, how was sheet steel
shipped? Were coils shipped in boxcars? Or was the sheet steel
simply shipped flat in gons and/or boxcars?
I think that in those days there were no coil cars because coils
weren't shipped around.


Re: Steel Shipments

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John King wrote:
Prior to the use of the "non steam era" coil cars, how was sheet steel shipped? Were coils shipped in boxcars? Or was the sheet steel simply shipped flat in gons and/or boxcars?
I think that in those days there were no coil cars because coils weren't shipped around. In fact the whole technology of coiling and uncoiling sheet steel in processing is relatively recent. I'm speaking from memory, so it might be useful if someone has time to check dates. Thus I'd say sheet was shipped in both gons and box cars, the latter for finished sheet, the former for most sheet which would be cold-rolled or formed to be part of a product.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Steel Shipments

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

Prior to the use of the "non steam era" coil cars, how was sheet steel
shipped? Were coils shipped in boxcars? Or was the sheet steel
simply shipped flat in gons and/or boxcars?

John King


Re: [PRRPro] decals

Schuyler Larrabee
 

Yeah, maybe. I drove by some today, though. 8^)

OK, OK, Mike, I'll quit now . . .

SGL
La vita e breve, mangiate prima il dolce!

-----Original Message-----
From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of Anthony Thompson
Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 12:51 AM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: [PRRPro] decals

Schuyler Larrabee wrote:
Hey, I resemble that remark! Really, it's not hard to drive in
Boston. . .
It's da Joisey drivers you gotta watch out for. . .
Man, I've driven both places and that's a tough call. (Shiver. . .
)
But possibly we're straying a trifle from freight cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail,
thompson@signaturepress.com <mailto:thompson%40signaturepress.com>
Publishers of books on railroad history




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