Tony

Aha!! Check out page 1109 of the 1953 Car Builder's Cyclopedia.
I thought it might be an export car -- for Mexico! (The one in
the photo is 3100cft, with 1 extra rib, but it's basically the
same car.)

Tim O'Connor

Tim,

These were the numbers re-used for rebuilt 70 ton, two bay cov'd
hoppers in the 1970's. The cars Tony is interrested in (SP 402300-
402312) were off the roster by then.

Lee G.

Hi Greg, yes I'm in HO and the time frame is late 49 to 1953. The Central of Georgia did away with their steam during the summer of 53. That's a sad year for we Central steam guys. I'd bought several Accurail cars along time back thinking that it was closer to certain FGEX cars than they turn out to be. Anyway, I really need to have FGEX cars for my middle Georgia area than any other reefer. Unfortunately, every thing from the ART cars to all PFE stuff can be built or is built in kit, RTR or resin.

I guess that's what had me so "bent out of shape" for many years. I could find information for the bulk of PFE and others but, when I'd ask about Fruit Growers...........man, it has been like I was trying to get information about printing US money.......I've known that the men that could find information needed and deserved to make their expenses back. OR if they gathered the info and had a book printed.........yes, they deserve to make a profit..

But WOW, I can't get over so many years have gone by and we here in the South still can't model or don't have the right to model the one brand of reefer used so heavily here in the South or Eastern states. I mean...can't even find out the measurements for a car.

Anyway, I won't ask about it any more and I sure wish that I could attend one of those big meets.
I would like to invite any one on this list or person of knowledge to come to our "Middle Georgia Railroad Association" club meetings. We meet every 3rd Monday of the month at the "restored" Central of Georgia depot in Gordon, Ga.
WE would LOVE to have ya'll. We'll feed you and show you some good old (now NS) railroading.
Don Worthy
Ivey, Ga.





egmrtn@... wrote:

Don,

I held this message from Saturday over to respnd. I to am working stiff as I think many on this list are. Unfortunately I don't have an extra Kahns car left to send you but I can send you as well as a few others on the list a complete set of information regarding the Kahn's car on CD when I get a minute from my work-a-day world. Do you model in HO Scale? If so this a good starting point for the car regardless if it were FGEX/WFEX/NX cars.

I think to say that information sharing is difficult, I would answer that it is not the case on this and many other lists I belong to. I will not beat this issue to death. I just want modelers to model again... and it seem the ACCURAIL cars are a good starting point to build a fleet of Wood Sheathed car and I can tell you that many modelers on this list?were in my clinic (including Tony) and I feel that everyone had a good time and learned something, albeit it not in competetion with Bill's generous clinic on these very cars the same day. Thanks to the great scheduling of Jeff Alley you could take in Bill's clinic then go to my clinic and translate what you learned into a scale replica. And Denny took the time to help those that were there learn how to best install the ACCURAIL PROTO couple with his hand out as well as data regarding Kahn's provided by John Greedy.

So if you can, we would love to see/meet you there, for at least you could drive down and you don't have to go through the strip searches as I do (I am on some sort of list or at least someone that has the same name as I) and enjoy the offering. We will be doing another "Shake and Take" car in 2008.

Greg Martin

Tony

All I can think is that a 10-hatch, 40 foot covered hopper
built in 1952 would look a lot like a clone of a PS-2 2893cft.
But 1952 is a bit early for a PS-2 I think...

I have an ACF builder photo of SSW 76053, built 12-51, and it
has 10 square hatches... but it has less than 3000cft (looks like
2745, kinda blurry). I have photos of nearly identical ACF cars
built for T&P, and Anhauser Busch. And M-I in 1948 too (2828 cft).

Tim O

Ed Hawkins wrote:

When did SP get these cars? I checked the 1/59 ORER (my closest to 1960) and they're not listed. They also aren't in the 7/62 ORER. The numbers jump from 402297 to 403000. All of the covered hopper cars built by Magor in 1952 were carbon black cars. Could it be one of these?

Good questions, Ed. The cars were built in 1952, thus within the range of this list, but were acquired by SP in the summer of 1963, after this list. No, all the covered hoppers built by Magor in 1952 were NOT carbon black cars; they built 25 cars for GACX (leased to Phillips), Lot W-2408, but those are somewhat different dimensionally, and weren't identified by Magor as carbon black cars.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Tony

Strangely, I have notes on these cars, 402298-402322, including
that they have 10 hatches. But I have no idea why I have that note
and I can't recall seeing a picture of one. I have all emails since
1996 indexed and I still can't figure out where I got this data...

Tim O'Connor

Ed,

No cars by those numbers are listed in my 7/63 ORER, but all 13 cars
are listed in my 1/65 ORER, so they were apparently acquired between
those dates. BTW, ex T&NO cov'd hoppers were renumbered to SP 401550-
402297 starting in the early 1960's, so they were numbered on top of
this number group. These numbers were later re-used for cars rebuilt
in the 1970's.

Lee A. Gautreaux - The RailGoat
http://www.railgoat.railfan.net/

Lee Gautreaux wrote:

I've been wondering about these cars for a long time as well. I hope you can unravel the mystery before the SP Hopper/Tank book goes to press.

This is, of course, the goal <g>.

What color are they and did they feature similar lettering as SP cov'd hoppers of the time?

They are black, and have the usual SP covered hopper lettering in white.

Do they have the sampling spigots as carbon black cars do? Could they have been rebuilt from carbon black cars? Magor built some in the early days of carbon black transportation.

I had this thought too, as that was practically all the covered hoppers in Magor's output in those days. But all those carbon black cars are 45 feet or 46 feet long inside. It sure would seem odd to cut five feet out of a carbon black car (and almost a foot out of the height), just to make a 3050-cubic foot car. And no, no sample spigots. They have what look like conventional covered hopper round roof hatches, five on each side of the car.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

On Jul 16, 2007, at 7:48 PM, Tony Thompson wrote:

car numbers?

Good point. SP 402300-402312. What i really WANT to know is the
original numbers and reporting marks <g>.

Tony,
When did SP get these cars? I checked the 1/59 ORER (my closest to
1960) and they're not listed. They also aren't in the 7/62 ORER. The
numbers jump from 402297 to 403000. All of the covered hopper cars
built by Magor in 1952 were carbon black cars. Could it be one of
these?
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Tony,

I've been wondering about these cars for a long time as well. I
hope you can unravel the mystery before the SP Hopper/Tank book goes
to press. What color are they and did they feature similar
lettering as SP cov'd hoppers of the time? Do they have the
sampling spigots as carbon black cars do? Could they have been
rebuilt from carbon black cars? Magor built some in the early days
of carbon black transportation.

Lee A. Gautreaux - Guitar Hero in Training
http://www.railgoat.railfan.net/

I have photos of some Magor cars SP acquired second-hand,

though I

don't know from whom. In the SP photos, they are 3050-cubic foot
covered hoppers with conventional covered hopper outlets, but the

sides

look like ordinary riveted outside-stake hoppers. Their inside

length

was 41 feet even, which doesn't match any cars built in 1952 which

are

in the builder list in the Magor book. SP only got 13 of them.

Does

anyone have an idea of whose covered hoppers (or perhaps regular
hoppers, rebuilt as covered hoppers) these might have been?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

car numbers?

Good point. SP 402300-402312. What i really WANT to know is the original numbers and reporting marks <g>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

AFAIK the B29 housings were a Q-only thing. They were designed and built by the Q IIRC.
It would be neat to find out otherwise, however...
Charlie Vlk

car numbers?

I have photos of some Magor cars SP acquired second-hand, though I don't know from whom. In the SP photos, they are 3050-cubic foot covered hoppers with conventional covered hopper outlets, but the sides look like ordinary riveted outside-stake hoppers. Their inside length was 41 feet even, which doesn't match any cars built in 1952 which are in the builder list in the Magor book. SP only got 13 of them. Does anyone have an idea of whose covered hoppers (or perhaps regular hoppers, rebuilt as covered hoppers) these might have been?

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

I photographed such a shed near the Illinois Central depot at
Independence, Iowa, used for IC work equipment.

Were all such boxcars CB&Q or were there others?







--- In STMFC@..., "Douglas Harding" <dharding@...> wrote:

Thanks Rob, I knew I had seen the car (body) before, just could not

remember

where. I will dig out that issue of the BB and take a closer look.

Doug Harding
www.iowacentralrr.org

No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.6/902 - Release Date:

7/15/2007

2:21 PM

Don,



I held this message from Saturday over to respnd. I to am working stiff as I think many on this list are. Unfortunately I don't have an extra Kahns car left to send you but I can send you as well as a few others on the list a complete set of information regarding the Kahn's car on CD when I get a minute from my work-a-day world. Do you model in HO Scale? If so this a good starting point for the car regardless if it were FGEX/WFEX/NX cars.

I think to say that information sharing is difficult, I would answer that it is not the case on this and many other lists I belong to. I will not beat this issue to death. I just want modelers to model again... and it seem the ACCURAIL cars are a good starting point to build a fleet of Wood Sheathed car and I can tell you that many modelers on this list?were in my clinic (including Tony) and I feel that everyone had a good time and learned something, albeit it not in competetion with Bill's generous clinic on these very cars the same day. Thanks to the great scheduling of Jeff Alley you could take in Bill's clinic then go to my clinic and translate what you learned into a scale replica. And Denny took the time to help those that were there learn how to best install the ACCURAIL PROTO couple with his hand out as well as data regarding Kahn's provided by John Greedy.

So if you can, we would love to see/meet you there, for at least you could drive down and you don't have to go through the strip searches as I do (I am on some sort of list or at least someone that has the same name as I) and enjoy the offering. We will be doing another "Shake and Take" car in 2008.

Greg Martin

A drawing for an FGEX reefer was published in Mainline Modeler,

Fruit Growers Express Reefer: Less publicized than PFE
Mainline Modeler, January 1988 page 42
( DRAWING, EXPRESS, FGE, "FRANTZ, IVAN JR.", "HUNDMAN, ROBERT L.",
REEFER, FREIGHTCAR,

from the Kalmbach index. The issues is listed as available from
Hundman Publishing for $2.50. I cannot comment on the accuracy of the
drawing.

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn@... wrote:

Don, Kurt and all...

<SNIP>

Don, as far as drawings, well much of my work is from his

information and conversations with myself, and some drawings from the
Cyc's published on BREX cars.

Don, Kurt and all...



Tony's correct the cost of reproduction isn't cheap, try making 30+ handout for a seminar like Coacoa Beach or Naperville, OUCH!



But further, Bill is a very honest and generous person and i did receive a note from him on Friday regarding the amount of handouts for the subject we are discussing which also explains the steel cars (both side sheathing). He may offer them on CD for ease of duplicaton, but I would rather he explain that. I want to remind you all that Bill has published 4 separate articles on the subject and a book is fothcoming but will be delay with the recent discovery of even more information. But I will leave that to Bill to explain in his future note to the list.



I WOULD NOT appreciate anyone making copies of his work via data transfer or copies without his specific approval. The composition is his alone.



Don, as far as drawings, well much of my work is from his information and conversations with myself, and some drawings from the Cyc's published on BREX cars.



As for building the HO Scale cars with the 8-inch sills, if you simple follow your handout I provided folks with at Cocoa Beach (a limited attendence?clinic with the data and the donated car)or the article on line in the B&O Modeler and the information should provide you a car?that works for a post 1953 rebuild?simplifed, other changes came along in the 50's that will be detailed in my next article, i.e. with metal running boards and powerr handbrakes and?metal hand brake platforms.?If you need more modeling information I can provide extra photos of construction.

It's not money, it's a time and effort of research issue. As?for the modeling information FOR HO it's free from me.

Greg Martin ??

Doug Harding wrote:

It is the presenter's "intellectual material", it may even be copywrited . . .

Anything you create is automatically copyrighted at the moment of creation (on paper, electronically, photographically). Thus any presentation is CERTAINLY copyrighted by its creator. This is the copyright law since 1978.
Doug also properly alluded to the problem of material in a presentation or handout which is copyrighted by someone else. You cannot give it away.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Don Worthy wrote:

For your information Tony, I wasn't talking about Bill at all......or the charge for copies.

Oh, really? Maybe the topic line should have been changed, so the rest of us would know for sure what you were talking about.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history