Date   

FGE/WFE/BRE comments

lnbill <bwelch@...>
 

I confess these days that I am so immersed in my paid work and my
research on the FGE/WFE/BRE consortium, plus modeling, that I do not
look at this group very often.

I will try to be comprehensive here in commenting on all the recent
chat.

It would actually be great if one of you with the latest version of
my wood sheathed handout (the 54 page version), could scan it and
make it available either on this site or Ted Cullota's freight car
site, or both. If that can be done, I would write little blurbs
occasionally correcting errors or clarifying/adding information as
need be. Some statement about not copying for resale should be
included. I have always meant it to be seen broadly, as it is a
handout after all. It is important to understand that it is very much
a work in progress. The visual presentation that goes with it has
been much revised and now is an electronic format. I am scheduled to
present it at this fall's Naperville gathering. It is in two parts
now with many, many new photos.

To put this fleet of wood sheathed cars in perspective, during the
period from 1930-1955, ART had one 40-foot wood sheathed design in
revenue service, while MDT had arguably 5. In between these two, SFRD
had 2 designs. (I am intentionally leaving PFE out for now because
need to study it again to see how it stacks up.) During this same
period the FGE/WFE/BRE consortium had in revenue service over 30
different designs or "looks" ordered/built by 12 different railroads
or companies including FGE itself. Of these 30 + designs, only three
were FGE designs, two of which were built for both FGE and WFE and
only one design, the wartime built plywood sheathed cars, was built
by FGE, WFE, and BRE. Again this is before we talk about rebuilds.

(Kits for both the plywood and T&G wartime cars should be available
from Sunshine Models this October. I finally stopped fiddling with
the patterns. Several parts, including the door hinges, ladders, and
the brackets for the 3' 2" bracket grabs will be photoetched!)

Next the InterMountain FGE/WFE reefer. With its 8-inch side sill,
this represents the rebuilding that began in 1948 for cars built by
FGE and WFE in 1927 until about 1934. I suggested to them early on
that they make the side sills a separate item, so that the more
numerous cars with the 6-inch side sill could be modeled, but they
went another way. It makes me nervous when I hear people saying they
are going to buy a bunch of these models since when taking the wood
fleets of both FGE and WFE into account, these cars would represent
only a small portion of the fleet, less than 10 % depending on the
year. IMO one only needs one or two of each FGE and WFE if one is
modeling a railroad served by the FGE/WFE/BRE consortium.

What one does need to be doing is ordering and building Sunshine
resin kits. The truss rod kits can be used to model FGE/WFE's cars
without the 6 inch side sill and the cars they owned with Bettendorf
(Red Caboose) and built up (Tichy) underframes (similar if not
identical to PFE's). As my article in RPM Journal # I demonstrates,
the Accurail reefer has great potential for producing BREX/CX/FWDX
models of their signature cars.

Someone ask for a photo of a FGE steel car: This is also complicated.
We could have thought that with steel came some standardization. The
answer is yes and no. Roofs were SRE products, the conventional
paneled roof and the follow-up diagonal paneled, while the ends were
varieties of SRE's Dreadnaught ends. All three entities built cars
before WWII which share some common components, especially roofs and
underframes, but BRE's cars featured a very rare form with uncommon
ribs with bifurcated ends while some of FGE's cars featured two very
different steel panel configurations, one of which matched WFE and
BRE. BTW, all 50 of FGE's new prewar cars were assigned FDEX
reporting marks and were double deck cars. FGE also installed two
series of steel sheathed rebuilds before the war, FGEX 10850-10999,
which judging from the only known photo is clearly derived for a USRA
double sheathed boxcar of unknown heritage and FGEX52680-52799 which
company records say were rebuilds but for which, to date, there are
no photos to document their appearance/design.

RP CYC covers the steel cars built in 1946 by FGE and WFE.

From 1947 through 1949 FGE built 1,600 steel cars with hinged doors
in 7 different groups, 6 carried FGEX reporting marks and one FHIX.
Four of these had welded steel sheathing, 7 panels to each side of
the doors, one with a tabbed side sill and three with a straight side
sill. The other 3 had five riveted panels to each side of the doors,
one with a tabbed side sill and two with straight side sill. All were
built in the various FGE shops.

WFE built two series of steel cars totaling 750 in 1949. One was
riveted with a straight side sill and hinges similar to those on PFE
steel cars and were built by PC&F. The other was a welded car with
tabbed side sill and appears to be identical to FGE's with the same
features.

BRE built only one group of hinged door cars after WWII, also in
1949. These were riveted with a straight side sill, and an unusual
handle on the door hardware in that it was at about a 45-degree
angle. (I have a table, albeit a work in progress, covering the steel
cars, that I can send to someone to post here and at Ted's site.)

FGE rebuilt what appears to be two groups of steel rebuilds with 6
ft. plug doors in 1949, while WFE began to rebuild wood sheathed cars
with steel sheathing also in 1949 with hinged doors.

Beginning in 1950 and continuing until 1957 when the consortium built
their last ice bunker reefers, all the new cars built by FGE/WFE/BRE
had 6 f. plug doors. These can be modeled with Sunshine kits.

While all the cars built from 1947 forward had the improved
Dreadnaught end, most had the version where the bottom edge was
straight rather than tapered which has yet to be modeled/tooled.

So when someone asked for a photo of a FGE reefer...

The four articles I have done so far should be a good start for
anyone interested in the FGE/WFE/BRE and creating models. I will be
finishing Part II of the truss rod article models for RPM Journal and
then hope to follow with a modeling article using
Branchline/Westerfield and Accurail reefer kits to create models of
FGE cars purchased from the NYNH&H, NYO&W, FEC, and B&O.

From the research perspective, I have basically finished scanning an
almost complete collection of the employee magazine "Teamwork" (still
need the July 1950 and 1954 issues) and early next month will be
going to the Univ. of North Carolina at Chapel Hill where I have just
learned there is archived with the ACL collection 82 folders devoted
to FGE materials. This is potentially the "mother load" that I have
been looking for.

Bill Welch


Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

Greg Martin
 

Well, if you plan to do a clinic/seminar in an open fourm and the PRM meet request you offer a handout, then that is when/why you would go to Kinkos and pay the price. No one here that has done that kind of research knowing fully well that the material was for a book would allow anyone to scan the data and then allow someone to post it to the web... That's Nutz and has nothing to do with sharing. One can share the data in the form of a book, no one with any ethics with regards to the understanding of the work involved would agree the information needs to be free...

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: George R. Stilwell, Jr. <GRSJr@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 6:32 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: pic from rrpicturearchives







"Bill is a generous person, though you
clearly don't know that. And it sure ain't about money. Go to your
local Kinkos or other copy shop with a 54-page document and see what it
costs to copy it, before you complain about Bill's $3 charge."
This is the 21st century. Who goes to Kinkos and pays their prices when you
can scan the handout to a PDF file and distribute it via E-mail for free.
The recipient can print it if desired or just read it on their computer.
So, it's not about money, it's about the willingness to share. One could
argue the cost of scanning, but many HP printers scan for free. If Bill
wants, I'll scan the handout for him and send him the PDF file.
Ray







________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


Re: CPR Fowler box car end bracing:

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...> wrote:

Thanks Jim for the reference to the Westerfield material. Actually,
I have
quite a number of the Westerfield kits (dark grey resin), but the
instruction sheets don't break down the cars with differing end bracing
styles - perhaps they are older sheets?
Rob,

I think you need to go back to the original source information, the
series of articles on the "Dominion car" published by Paul Clegg and
Stafford Swain in Mainline Modeler during '85 and '86. This multi
article series had development history, drawings, photos, details of
modifications, and a look at derivatives used by other roads. The
roster info you seek should be in there somewhere.

Dennis


Re: Caboose truck help needed

Brian Leppert <b.leppert@...>
 

The truck in the image http://www.greenbayroute.com/gbw615truck.jpg is the 40 ton version of the Barber-Bettendorf Swing Motion Caboose Car Truck. This differs from the 30 ton version by the beading on the side frame face, tighter radius on the far corners of the side frame windows and a 2 inch longer wheelbase. I think the 40 ton truck was first introduced in the early 1950s. ECW offers this truck.

For many years our hobby has been calling ANY caboose truck with side frames having integrally cast journal boxes and leaf springs as "Bettendorf" or "Barber-Bettendorf". This is incorrect.

Bettendorf and Barber-Bettendorf Swing Motion Caboose Trucks are easily indentified by the visable end of the transom casting. This is the six sided object that the leaf spring sticks out of. The transom solidly connects the two side frames. The spring plank hangs below the transom by four links. The leaf (elliptical) springs sit on the spring plank and support the truck bolster that floats within the transom casting. This was developed and patended by the Bettendorf Co. back in the teens and was originally offered with T-section side frames (NYC liked this caboose truck). By 1924 the U-section side frame became available. This "wide bottom" side frame was manufactured until circa 1931. By 1935 Bettendorf changed the contour of the side frame to a "pinched bottom" look This 30 ton truck remained in production until at least 1958, that I know of.

In 1942 the Bettendorf Co. sold the manufacturing and sales rights for this design to the Standard Car Truck Company. This is when they added their trade name "Barber" to the truck's name.

An HO version of the "wide bottom", circa 1924-1931, Bettendorf Swing Motion Caboose Truck has recently become available from Tahoe Model Works. I'm currently working on the tooling for the 30 ton, "pinched bottom" Barber-Bettendorf Swing Motion Caboose Truck.

Brian Leppert
Tahoe Model Works
Carson City, NV


PDF files, was Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

Pieter Roos
 

Man, talk about a topic that will not die; now it has jumped threads!

All of which technical issues are quite beside the point if the author
doesn't choose to make the information available on the internet (for
any of a number of perfectly LEGITIMATE reasons, or even for selfish
ones if he so chooses). I suspect all the information will make it
into an article or book eventually.

Anyone got a stake and some garlic to make this topic STAY dead?

Pieter Roos

--- In STMFC@..., "Jack Burgess" <jack@...> wrote:

All true but making a PDF file from a scanned image is more
time-consuming,
requires a different program, and results in very large files...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


On my Mac I can do a article and then tell it to print. When the
print program comes up There is a save to PDF option and if I save to
PDF then I can take the PDF and email it where ever I wish. PDF are
no big thing on a MAC.
Thank you
Larry Jackman


Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

All true but making a PDF file from a scanned image is more time-consuming,
requires a different program, and results in very large files...

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

On my Mac I can do a article and then tell it to print. When the
print program comes up There is a save to PDF option and if I save to
PDF then I can take the PDF and email it where ever I wish. PDF are
no big thing on a MAC.
Thank you
Larry Jackman


Re: Fishbelly FOBX 50' Plywood Side --Dreadnaught Ends- Ten Ice Hatches and Other Color Pictures

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

gary laakso wrote:
There is a partial color picture taken in May, 1953 in Denver of one of the 4000-4173 class 50 foot fish belly FOBX (FGEX owned marks) on pages 78 and 79 of Trackside Around Granger Country, 1952-1955 by Rich Wilson. The picture clearly shows narrow the frame was compared to the width of the body.
The important thing about the FOBX cars was the overhead ice bunkers (thus the "Overhead Bunkers" in the reporting mark). They had heavier insulation too, thus the wider body. There is an overhead shot of one in the PFE book (to illustrate icing).

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Fishbelly FOBX 50' Plywood Side --Dreadnaught Ends- Ten Ice Hatches and Other Color Pictures

gary laakso
 

There is a partial color picture taken in May, 1953 in Denver of one of the 4000-4173 class 50 foot fish belly FOBX (FGEX owned marks) on pages 78 and 79 of Trackside Around Granger Country, 1952-1955 by Rich Wilson. The picture clearly shows narrow the frame was compared to the width of the body.
For the coal minded (notice, i did not say dirty), on pages 8 and 9 there is a July 20, 1952 picture of a Rock Island freight in Muscatine, IA passing a string of gons and hoppers including a P&LE 2 bay hopper, a NYC 2 bay hopper, a C&EI two bay hopper and a war emergency 52 foot gondola of undetermined ownership.
Those of us completing Westerfield Milwaukee stock cars or Sunshine ART wood reefers can be inspired by the wonderful derailment detail pictures on pages 11 to 15 ( yes, there is a Warren tank car, WRNX 11315 in the pictured too), all in Muscatine on April12, 1952. The truck from the Milwaukee is a surprising light dust color with oily/muck colored wheels, much the same as the ART 21993 reefer's truck.

gary laakso
south of Mike Brock
vasa0vasa@...


Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

Larry Kline
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
scan to a PDF for free? i've had 6 PC's over the years and not one of
them can CREATE a PDF file.

The Mac print utility can create PDFs. I recently used it to convert
a 24 page P&LERR Historical Society magazine issue from a Word
document to a pdf. I was pleased with the results, including the
images. I did use Photoshop to appropriately size the 24 images that
I put into the Word document, but a less expensive program such as
Photoshop Elements would have worked equally well.

Larry Kline
Pittsburgh, PA


Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

Jack Burgess <jack@...>
 

"Bill is a generous person, though you
clearly don't know that. And it sure ain't about money. Go to your
local Kinkos or other copy shop with a 54-page document and see what it
costs to copy it, before you complain about Bill's $3 charge."
This is the 21st century. Who goes to Kinkos and pays their
prices when you
can scan the handout to a PDF file and distribute it via E-mail for free.
A 54-page PDF file scanned at 100 dpi (marginal quality) and not converted
from Word would be about 25 megs....not the thing you can e-mail to people.

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com


PDF's

asychis@...
 

In a message dated 7/17/2007 2:07:54 PM Central Daylight Time,
STMFC@... writes:

All true but making a PDF file from a scanned image is more time-consuming,
requires a different program, and results in very large files...

Adobe Acrobat (not Reader) does this easily. Files can be trimmed down, but I
agree are quite large.

Jerry Michels



************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

toddsyr <toddsyr@...>
 

There are free programs that will write PDF files nowadays just to keep the information current. A Google search will put you in the right direction. I do agree however that nobody is obligated to give away anything they've taken the time to research and compile or photograph. I know alot of folks think they should get something for nothing just because they can. I'm not one of them though. I pay for my music, give credit and weblinks for photos from the internet posted in various RR forums, take only one newspaper from the coinbox etc etc etc.

Todd K. Stearns


Re: CPR Fowler box car end bracing:

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
 

Thanks Jim for the reference to the Westerfield material. Actually, I have quite a number of the Westerfield kits (dark grey resin), but the instruction sheets don't break down the cars with differing end bracing styles - perhaps they are older sheets? It does indicate that number series 100000 - 139998 (even) and 200000 - 212499 are two brace cars, and that the earlier cars had more end braces. In any event, I was also referred to the Westerfield web page, and there one finds a very useful breakdown for all the cars which I expect I'll be able to follow.

Re the sides: its not the prototype sides that need to be or were changed. I was referring to the Canadian Hobbycraft boxcar model of a few years ago, which has 2 equally spaced side panels either side of the doors. It ought to have wider panels next to the doors and narrower ones toward the ends. They do this very nicely with the stock car model, and since the bracing (on both cars) is composed of glued on add-ons to the injection moulded car side, I am merely suggesting they use the side bracing from the stock cars to improve the box cars. Frankly, if they would just sell the side bracing for both car types as detail items, I'd be happy to use them for a number of projects.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "jim peters" <mikado2206@...>
To: <STMFC@...>
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 6:16 AM
Subject: RE: [STMFC] CPR Fowler box car end bracing:


Good morning,

The information sheet from the Westerfield kits is most likely the best
summary you will find. Also check Ian's site http://freightcars.nikina.net

I was unaware of any changes were ever made to the side framing.

Jim Peters
Coquitlam, BC



From: Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>
Reply-To: STMFC@...
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] CPR Fowler box car end bracing:
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:11:45 -0700

I am in the midst of modifying a few Canadian Hobbycraft fowler boxcars and
was considering modifying then ends which presently have two "Z" section
vertical braces.

As I understand it, while two was common enough, some cars had three and
others four. I am wondering if there is an article or other reference out
there I have somehow missed that attempts to sort out what number series
were which. (Yes, I know the number series present their own issues as
many
of the cars were renumbered after construction. I model 1946 - if that
helps). Alternately, perhaps there is a source that notes which of the
many
manufacturers, if any, used the various end bracing patterns. (The extra
ribs may all have been rebuilds as the cars aged.)

By the way, it strikes me that these models should be re-run by the
manufacturer - but with a modification from the earlier production.
Instead
of using the equal spaced side bracing the original run received, they
ought
to use the more correct unequally spaced bracing used on the stock car
models..... A new floor - similar in quality to that used by True Line
Trains on their recent CNR 1937 AAR cars would also be a welcome
improvement.....

Thanks in advance,

Rob Kirkham
who is starting to give up waiting for NERS
_________________________________________________________________
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Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Ray Stilwell wrote:
This is the 21st century. Who goes to Kinkos and pays their prices when you can scan the handout to a PDF file and distribute it via E-mail for free.
Different process for different needs. If people need to follow along in a handout DURING the talk, Ray, your suggestion is meaningless.

So, it's not about money, it's about the willingness to share.
Nice one, suggesting that Bill doesn't want to share. You should apologize, Ray.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: FGEX wood reefers from Accurail kits?

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Pieter Roos wrote:
The list of resources available for FEGX cars includes . . .
It appears that a model of the FEGX cars would not be all that hard to build, and the information is pretty readily available to build a creditable fleet. If you get the first four items on the list you should be in good shape for modifying the Accurail cars for under $35.00.
Thanks for setting the record straight, Pieter. Not everyone who complains knows as much as they ought to.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

Ljack70117@...
 

On my Mac I can do a article and then tell it to print. When the print program comes up There is a save to PDF option and if I save to PDF then I can take the PDF and email it where ever I wish. PDF are no big thing on a MAC.
Thank you
Larry Jackman
Boca Raton FL
ljack70117@...
I was born with nothing and
I have most of it left

On Jul 17, 2007, at 10:51 AM, mike turner wrote:

Tim,

These programs allow creation and viewing .pdf files without Adobe's
help. Printing from a word processor, spreadsheet, or other program to a
.pdf does work. I have not tried converting a scanned image, yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDFCreator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostscript

Mike Turner
Simpsonville, SC

Tim O'Connor wrote:
George R. Stilwell, Jr. writes:

"This is the 21st century. Who goes to Kinkos and pays their prices when you
can scan the handout to a PDF file and distribute it via E-mail for free."

scan to a PDF for free? i've had 6 PC's over the years and
not one of them can CREATE a PDF file -- only the Adobe reader
is freeware, not the writer software. But I'm sure if you'll
send Bill $449 for the Adobe software, plus a flatbed scanner,
and a stack of CD's and mailing sleeves, then he'll make you
a free copy.

Tim O'Connor





Yahoo! Groups Links



Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

mike turner <yardcoolieyahoo@...>
 

Tim,

These programs allow creation and viewing .pdf files without Adobe's
help. Printing from a word processor, spreadsheet, or other program to a
.pdf does work. I have not tried converting a scanned image, yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDFCreator
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghostscript

Mike Turner
Simpsonville, SC

Tim O'Connor wrote:

George R. Stilwell, Jr. writes:

"This is the 21st century. Who goes to Kinkos and pays their prices when you
can scan the handout to a PDF file and distribute it via E-mail for free."

scan to a PDF for free? i've had 6 PC's over the years and
not one of them can CREATE a PDF file -- only the Adobe reader
is freeware, not the writer software. But I'm sure if you'll
send Bill $449 for the Adobe software, plus a flatbed scanner,
and a stack of CD's and mailing sleeves, then he'll make you
a free copy.

Tim O'Connor



Re: Caboose truck help needed

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

I should have realized I couldn't attach a photo to a posting. I've added an
album to the "Photos" section of the group's Yahoo page. Look for "ATSF way
car (caboose)" if you're interested, but allow some time for the photos to
be vetted. -- Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


Re: pic from rrpicturearchives

Tim O'Connor
 

George R. Stilwell, Jr. writes:

"This is the 21st century. Who goes to Kinkos and pays their prices when you
can scan the handout to a PDF file and distribute it via E-mail for free."

scan to a PDF for free? i've had 6 PC's over the years and
not one of them can CREATE a PDF file -- only the Adobe reader
is freeware, not the writer software. But I'm sure if you'll
send Bill $449 for the Adobe software, plus a flatbed scanner,
and a stack of CD's and mailing sleeves, then he'll make you
a free copy.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Caboose truck help needed

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

Hello Mark,

I don't claim to be a truck expert either, but the truck in your photo at
least resembles the Barber-Bettendorf swing motion caboose truck. In HO,
Athearn and Atlas both have roller-bearing versions of the Barber-Bettendorf
truck, and Atlas also makes a solid-bearing version. I'm using the Atlas
solid-bearing trucks (no. 191000) under Athearn cabooses modified to
represent the railroad-built (in 1942) AT&SF 2001-series way cars. It's a
nice truck, especially with the addition of Reboxx narrow-tread wheelsets
and Kadee no. 441 brake beams. These are the trucks under the caboose in the
attached photo; unfortunately, I don't have a closeup view of the truck.

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@...
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142

131241 - 131260 of 195562