Mark,
I started to prepare my reply and then received Richard's reply to your
message.

The 500 cars were built by Mount Vernon (Division of Pressed Steel Car
Co.), lot 11047. A builder's photo of 91805 appeared in the 1953 CBC as
well as Railway Age March 9, 1953. I cannot read the build dates on
this photo with any degree of accuracy as the images are quite fuzzy.
Bob's Photo offers an in-service photo of 91566 (a brand new car). It
has a build date of 5-51. Perhaps others know of more photos.

I've made trips to Mount Vernon, Illinois, to try to locate any remains
of technical data when the company went out of business in 1954, but to
no avail. Maybe someone has paint specs from railroad files. Otherwise,
AC&F paint specs for cars built in the same general time period of the
early 1950s can be used. Series 91001-91500 (built one year earlier)
had sides, ends, & running boards, painted Katy Red (Accupaint #12
Oxide Brown is a very close match). Trucks and underframes were black.
Unpainted galvanized steel roofs. This data comes from the AC&F bill of
materials for lot no. 3459. The photo of 91566 shows a little Katy Red
paint (overspray) along the top edge of the roof and peeling off in
spots.

The MKT diagram does not state what type of running boards were on the
cars. The photo of 91566 has a soft focus and the details of the
running board, and I cannot determine the type of running boards from
this photo. MKT often used Apex running boards & brake steps, but also
occasionally used U.S. Gypsum r/b and b/s on box cars built in the late
1940s and 1950s.

Cars 91501-91800 had Youngstown doors and Universal hand brakes.
91801-92000 had 7-panel Superior doors (version with wide panel 3rd
from top to allow the placard to be mounted flush on the panel).
Equipco hand brakes on 91801-91900 and Superior on 91901-92000.
Diagonal panel roofs. 8-rung ladders (I had earlier made an erroneous
entry in my roster of these cars with 7-rung ladders). Improved
Dreadnaught Ends having R+3/4 corrugation arrangement and lacking the
narrow intermediate corrugations between the main corrugations except
for under the rectangular top corrugation. ASF A-3 Ride-Control trucks
on 91501-91900 and Barber S-2-A on 91901-92000. One-wear steel wheels.

Sill steps (I respectfully request that the term "stirrup steps" ceased
being used and to use the terminology used by the car builders) were
like those offered in Branchline's kits. There were no "Be Careful"
stencils on the cars when new.

The side sill "tabs" at the cross-ties had an uncommon shape. Rather
than the more common shape having angled sides, these were rectangular
in shape with a chamfer at the bottom. Refer to a photo to get the
right shape and size. If using the BT model as a starting point, these
should be changed. Hope this helps answer your questions.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Your problem was that you used shellac that was too old. Most shellac has a
shelf life of one year, and the date is always on the can. Failure to dry
is the issue with old shellac. I have frequently used shellac and get very
good results with it. It dries quickly and is easy to clean up.

--
Atty Raymond G. Meyer
110 E. Main St
Port Washington, WI 53074
262-284-5566
rgmeyer2@gmail.com

On Jul 21, 2007, at 4:02 PM, Mark Heiden wrote:

I'm looking for some information regarding the as-delivered paint and
details for some Katy 40ft steel boxcars from series MKT 91501-92000.
I haven't had any luck finding photos, hence the laundry list of
questions.

There's a builder's 3/4 view of M-K-T 91805 in the 1953 Car Builders'
Cyclopedia.

1. Were the roof, ends and underframe painted differently from the
sides of the car?

No; the entire car appears (in this b/w photo) to be the same color.

2. Was the "Be Careful" lettering, located near the side ladders and
grab irons of so many Katy boxcars, part of the original paint for
these cars?

No.

3. What sort of running boards were these cars delivered with?

Apex-type steel grid.

4. What sort of brake wheels did these cars have?

Equipco Type 3750C

5. What sort of stirrup steps did these cars have?

Modeled by Proto Power West Type C.

6. I have found conflicting information as to when and by whom these
cars were built: by ACF in early 1951 or Mt. Vernon in 1950. Are
either of these correct?

Mt. Vernon Division of the Pressed Steel Car Corp., 1950. Ends were
"Dartnaught" (i.e., postwar Dreadnaught without the smaller
intermediate ribs), doors were Superior 7-panel, trucks aren't clearly
visible in the photo but look as if they might have been Barber S-2s.

Richard Hendrickson

+Given the compressability of wood, I don't think this is necessary.
Besides, the chances that you completely sealed the interior are extremely
remote.

--
Atty Raymond G. Meyer
110 E. Main St
Port Washington, WI 53074
262-284-5566
rgmeyer2@gmail.com

George - No, the cars will be available for a year. - Al

Those already exist, more or less. The are called RFID tags (which is what AEIs are too) and are available as small (1 x 1 inch, 1 x 3/8 inch, and similar) self-adhesive films less than .020 thick. You could put them on the undersides of loads, inside house cars, and so forth.

I think many modelers *like* the idea of using car cars though . . .

KL

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some information regarding the as-delivered paint and
details for some Katy 40ft steel boxcars from series MKT 91501-92000.
I haven't had any luck finding photos, hence the laundry list of
questions.

1. Were the roof, ends and underframe painted differently from the
sides of the car?

2. Was the "Be Careful" lettering, located near the side ladders and
grab irons of so many Katy boxcars, part of the original paint for
these cars?

3. What sort of running boards were these cars delivered with?

4. What sort of brake wheels did these cars have?

5. What sort of stirrup steps did these cars have?

6. I have found conflicting information as to when and by whom these
cars were built: by ACF in early 1951 or Mt. Vernon in 1950. Are
either of these correct?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark Heiden

Dennis Storzek wrote

As to a project to publish an all-encompassing book detailing all the
trucks, doors, ends, etc. used by the carbuilders over the years, I
think one of the reasons it hasn't been done yet is none of us is
really sure we understand each and every line well enough that there
won't be more information coming to light at some point that adds even
more detail.

The ideal medium for this information is a Wiki, moderated by enough
experts (like Wikipedia has) to expunge bogus information. We started a
mailing list a while back to explore this idea, but with a more limited
idea of an electronic ORER that could link virtually every car listing
to relevant information. With any Wiki, you need a server, network,
software, people to support these -- all of which costs money and/or
takes up a lot of time. The virtue is that it can be amended with new
information by any of thousands of experts (who individually may only
be expert in a very limited field) and it can grow to encompass almost
any railroad subject matter.

A book is incredibly limited in this respect -- a Wiki can easily hold
1,000 books worth of information, all of it cross-indexed at everyone's
fingertips.

The web already has an incredible amount of railroad information, but
it's not organized, so I end up with hundreds of bookmarks and put my
Google Desktop to work trying to mine those web sites, but it still
feels like looking for a needle in a haystack at times...

Tim O'Connor

I'm trying to track down what a couple of weigh station symbols meant:
DS on the Boston & Maine and J on the Lackawanna. Can anyone help me
out?

Richard Hendrickson

I only wish for one hobby advancement -- a very small (about the
size of a baby aspirin) programmable "AEI" tag so we could retire
all the car cards and buttons and other means that we use to keep
track of cars on the layout. Scanners could be hand held and used
by the yard operator or crew to scan cars in a train wherever its
appropriate on the layout. A PC then could keep track of the cars
and generate new destinations for cars when they finish their
trips, and print switchlists or waybills as needed/desired. Of
course the scanners should be wireless too, just to make it easy.
Found a car and don't know where it belongs? Just scan it and the
PC will tell you... I figure such devices should cost about $2
or less. Also the devices could encode the owner of the model,
so they may offer a small amount of security over other methods,
if hidden inside the model...

Tim O'Connor

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@...> wrote:

Thanks, Dennis. I already have several pair so that really makes my
shopping easy <g>. Now, related to your reply, exactly where would I
look, or what book(s) would I need to have, to be able to answer my
question, and others about various trucks? Is there one source that
would cover most if not all trucks that would commonly be seen on
Steam Era Freight Cars in the late 1930s through early 40s?

Walter,

The most common source for info such as this was/is the Car Builder's
Cyclopedia (originally Car Builder's Dictionary, later Car &
Locomotive Cyclopedia) published periodically every couple of years
from the late nineteenth century and throughout the twentieth.
Unfortunately, these are not commonly available (although the 1940 was
reprinted by Kalmbach years ago, and the 1922 is currently available
on CD). Since these were published to show what was the "latest and
greatest" in the industry, one needs access to a number of these books
to trace the history and design changes in any given item. In
addition, as it has been pointed out, the CBC only provided a broad
overview; one needs to find historic manufacturer catalogs or other
documentation to learn the full details. Otherwise, the information
published in the CBC is open to varying interpretations, as I will
touch upon in the reply I still owe Tim O'Connor.

As to a project to publish an all-encompassing book detailing all the
trucks, doors, ends, etc. used by the carbuilders over the years, I
think one of the reasons it hasn't been done yet is none of us is
really sure we understand each and every line well enough that there
won't be more information coming to light at some point that adds even
more detail. None of us wants to be responsible for attaching a name
to a class of product, only to be proven wrong later, as in the
decades old misconception that all cast steel trucks are "Bettendorf"
trucks. My own personal reality check came a while back when I was
looking for information on early T section trucks produced by
Bettendorf; I quickly found examples of FIVE distinctly different
pattern sideframes, only one of which is illustrated in the CBCs, the
same photo being used issue after issue while the product evolved.

This is, after all, what keeps the hobby interesting.

Dennis

On Jul 21, 2007, at 1:53 PM, Tom Madden wrote:

Denny Anspach wrote:

> Hauling cable reels or telephone poles would not be ordinary
> activities expected of wholly-owned equipment manufacturer Western
> Electric, while it might well be expected of parent AT&T.
>
> However, as pointed out, Western Electric was already in the
> railroad business with its well established Manufacturer's
> Junction Railway in Cicero/Chicago.
>
> Could it be that for internal simplicity and convenience, AT&T
> would simply assign all of its own cars to Western Electric
> reporting marks so that all were under a single roof?

Most likely. Those of us in the Bell Labs research area weren't
subjected to the full Bell System corporate brainw ^H^H^H^H^H^H
philosophy and history seminars. But my recollection is that Western
Electric, in addition to its manufacturing role, was also AT&T's
property manager. AT&T and Western Electric each owned 50% of Bell
Labs, but Western Electric owned the buildings and was our landlord.
It makes sense that any Bell System railroad equipment would have
also been owned by Western Electric.

In the glory days of Ma Bell (pre-1969), the focus was on universal
service. Part of that was being able to respond to massive service
outages in an almost heroic fashion. This required that large
amounts of materiel be shipped and stored at depots all over the
country. The further back in time you go, the less likely it is that
highway transport would have been the best and most reliable way to
accomplish that. I am reluctant to draw any conclusions about whose
rail equipment would have been used, but having some company-owned
rolling stock, especially back in the 1920's when so much of the
infrastructure was up on poles and vulnerable to severe weather,
seems justifiable.

That all seems plausible, Tom, but the prototype for the model in
question (if there actually was a prototype) could not have been used
for anything but on-site storage, since the WEX reporting marks weren't
in the ORERs; such a car could not have been used to deliver materials
to overcome massive service outages since it could not have been
operated in interchange.

Richard Hendrickson

On Jul 21, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Standard Oil (Esso) also used LGX reporting marks in the Northeast.
I have a scan of a 1945 ACF LPG tank lettered "Essotane Cooking Gas"
I have a 1950's shot of a Warren tank car in Maine but I don't know
if that could have happened in 1940.

Yes, but those were ICC-105s for LPG service; they were not (and could
not have been) used to haul diesel fuel or heating oil.

Richard Hendrickson

Denny Anspach wrote:

Hauling cable reels or telephone poles would not be ordinary
activities expected of wholly-owned equipment manufacturer Western
Electric, while it might well be expected of parent AT&T.

However, as pointed out, Western Electric was already in the
railroad business with its well established Manufacturer's
Junction Railway in Cicero/Chicago.

Could it be that for internal simplicity and convenience, AT&T
would simply assign all of its own cars to Western Electric
reporting marks so that all were under a single roof?

Most likely. Those of us in the Bell Labs research area weren't
subjected to the full Bell System corporate brainw ^H^H^H^H^H^H
philosophy and history seminars. But my recollection is that Western
Electric, in addition to its manufacturing role, was also AT&T's
property manager. AT&T and Western Electric each owned 50% of Bell
Labs, but Western Electric owned the buildings and was our landlord.
It makes sense that any Bell System railroad equipment would have
also been owned by Western Electric.

In the glory days of Ma Bell (pre-1969), the focus was on universal
service. Part of that was being able to respond to massive service
outages in an almost heroic fashion. This required that large
amounts of materiel be shipped and stored at depots all over the
country. The further back in time you go, the less likely it is that
highway transport would have been the best and most reliable way to
accomplish that. I am reluctant to draw any conclusions about whose
rail equipment would have been used, but having some company-owned
rolling stock, especially back in the 1920's when so much of the
infrastructure was up on poles and vulnerable to severe weather,
seems justifiable.

Tom Madden

Dear Ed
Nearly thirty years ago, when I first changed over to O scale and had both larger surfaces to deal with and a greater impetus for better-detail, I tried shellac. It took several years for it to really dry. Never again. The Deft (e.g., "lacquer-based sealer") dries in less than an hour.
JGGK

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Justin Kahn" <harumd@...> wrote:

As to sealing wood cars, I kept hearing about "lacquer-based sanding
sealer" without anyone suggesting a source

I used to use Scalecoat which worked just fine. It has some kind of
particles in it besides the lacquer. I think it was recommended on
Q'Craft instruction sheets.

I've also seen shellac recommended to seal wood.

Being frugal and having access to chemicals (and being a seat of the
pants chemist) I dissolved Ambroid cement in MEK and used that.

Wood really sucks up both formaulations by capillary action.

Ed

_________________________________________________________________
http://newlivehotmail.com

Tim,

GPS for my power? If I can't find my train, then it's time to stop using the layout. My question now is >> does this have interference from the garage opener, portable phones, or CB radio transmissions? The more "stuff" we incorporate, the more we will need 'B' units with everything. Somehow, a GPS unit in a mountain pulling a perishable consist just feels like too much of a stretch. Think I will let the modelers who use GE evolution power deal with this new "hobby advancement". I'll stick with the fishbelly underframes, 5-5-5 ends, and wood sides with roof top brake wheels! What's next, the "talking" caboose repeating the train orders?

Fred Freitas

Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@comcast.net> wrote:
Greg,

He said transmitters and ceiling mounted receivers -- that
sounds wireless to me. But it sounds completely impractical.
Where are you going to put a transmitter in a switcher that
is already jammed full of stuff? Or is the transmitter part
of the DCC decoder?

An advantage of track-based systems is they are prototypical,
in that any wheelset can be detected, not just motorized stuff.

Tim O'Connor

Standard Oil (Esso) also used LGX reporting marks in the Northeast.
I have a scan of a 1945 ACF LPG tank lettered "Essotane Cooking Gas"
I have a 1950's shot of a Warren tank car in Maine but I don't know
if that could have happened in 1940.

This Red Ball Western Electric flat car kit K-51 with cable reels is listed by Howell Day as being "1920" which may explain to some degree its absence from the usual ORERs.

Hauling cable reels or telephone poles would not be ordinary activities expected of wholly-owned equipment manufacturer Western Electric, while it might well be expected of parent AT&T.

However, as pointed out, Western Electric was already in the railroad business with its well established Manufacturer's Junction Railway in Cicero/Chicago.

Could it be that for internal simplicity and convenience, AT&T would simply assign all of its own cars to Western Electric reporting marks so that all were under a single roof?

Note that although Richard Brennan's kit has the usual and expected typical Red Ball mixture of cast metal and wood parts, Howell Day's undated #10 catalog describes the same flat car as being "plastic"!

M. Dale Newton apparently was a pretty reliable supplier of accurately-researched and lettered models, and I have no knowledge that worthy Red Ball successor Howell Day was any different. I have never read about, nor learned otherwise how Newton actually did his research.

Denny




--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
Sacramento

On Jul 21, 2007, at 10:13 AM, Norm wrote:

I'm currently building a 3'x4' diorama of a mythical but quite plausible Maine coastal seaport set in 1940 where a narrow gauge
line from the interior intersected with the standard gauge main line running along the coast. While the standard gauge line will
undoubtedly be (almost all) real, I have some leeway in choosing road/owner names for various freight cars. I have my own
favorite names for boxcars, gondolas, flats, hoppers, and reefers, but I'd really like to find a good (hopefully local) line to
own the tank cars in the freight consist. My preference is for having one delivering diesel fuel for ships and another with
heating oil for buildings.

With this as background, my question to the group is, Where can I go to find the names of tank car owners circa 1940 in coastal
Maine?

Check the 1940 ORERs and you will not find any Maine-based tank car operators that would have shipped diesel fuel or heating oil - or even New England-based operators, for that matter. Such commodities were shipped either in tank cars owned by the large petroleum companies (in the northeast, Texaco, Eastern Shell [SEPX], Cities Service [EORX], Gulf, Mexican Petroleum [Amoco, MPLX], Sinclair, etc.) or the big car leasing companies, primarily Union Tank Line (which served all of the Standard Oil spin-offs as well as some smaller petroleum producers) and General American. Simply on the basis of car ownership, UTLX and GATX cars would be the most likely to turn up in such service.

Richard Hendrickson

I'm currently building a 3'x4' diorama of a mythical but quite plausible Maine coastal seaport set in 1940 where a narrow gauge line from the interior intersected with the standard gauge main line running along the coast. While the standard gauge line will undoubtedly be (almost all) real, I have some leeway in choosing road/owner names for various freight cars. I have my own favorite names for boxcars, gondolas, flats, hoppers, and reefers, but I'd really like to find a good (hopefully local) line to own the tank cars in the freight consist. My preference is for having one delivering diesel fuel for ships and another with heating oil for buildings.

With this as background, my question to the group is, Where can I go to find the names of tank car owners circa 1940 in coastal Maine?

TIA
Norm