Tim,

You should look into the RFID technology that is used for inventory
control in warehouses. My understanding is that passive RFID chips
are available for about $0.25. They are small enough to be inserted
into a pet's ear through a syringe.

The active chips are about $2.00 and can contain at least several K
of memory.

JMO

On 21 JUL 2007 Richard Hendrickson wrote:

"That all seems plausible, Tom, but the prototype for the model in
question (if there actually was a prototype) could not have been used
for anything but on-site storage, since the WEX reporting marks weren't
in the ORERs; such a car could not have been used to deliver materials
to overcome massive service outages since it could not have been
operated in interchange."

This raises the issue of what should be done vs. what could be and was done. ORER data today is derived from the UMLER, although originally it was the other way around. It was not until the 1990s - because of the decision to record the Single Car Air Brake Test date in UMLER but not stencil it on the car - that the Class I railroads routinely checked each car's UMLER entry before putting it into a train consist.

So if as late as the 1990s before the SCABT a car could be moved without being in UMLER, and therefore not in the ORER, I can envision that an entire fleet could be in interchange use in the 1920s-1930s without being in the ORER. To my mind the ORER listing would have been used to:
a. Send a bill for car repairs to the car owner
b. Request replacement parts not stocked by the repairing railroad from the car owner
c. Send mileage allowances to the car owner
d. For a car not used in intra-company service, inform the receiver of car characteristics.

If the cars were lettered with the Western Electric name, or if use of WEX reporting marks on Western Electric cars predated the assignment of reporting marks to private car lines, or if it were common knowledge that the initials WE on a car carrying telephone cable reels meant Western Electric, then at least the first two uses of the ORER listing could be met without looking in the ORER. As for the third, since the default mileage allowance for private line flat cars today is the same as when it was established in the 1890s-1900s ($0.006 per mile), maybe even back then it was not worth the effort to collect it, especially if only a few cars were involved. The fourth reason would not apply to Western Electric cars, as the receiver would generally be another Bell company.

Finally, regardless of all of the above arguments, would yard clerks have memorized all of the current private car line reporting marks or had the opportunity, time, and inclination to check the latest ORER for every reporting mark that they did not recall each time they did a yard check?

George Gounley
gounleys@...

--- In STMFC@..., "al_brown03" <abrown@...> wrote:

Thanks, Dennis. I already have several pair so that really makes my
shopping easy <g>. Now, related to your reply, exactly where would I
look, or what book(s) would I need to have, to be able to answer my
question, and others about various trucks? Is there one source that
would cover most if not all trucks that would commonly be seen on
Steam Era Freight Cars in the late 1930s through early 40s?

A real good starting point is Richard Hendrickson's article in RP CYC 4.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Thanks,

Walter M. Clark
Time Stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

Al,

I did look at that article (it's dog-eared and getting worse as I
prepare for some concentrated Steam Era Freight Car construction time
now that the weather in inland southern California shows why here the
modeling season is too hot Summer, not too cold Winter <g>) but the
section "Cast Steel Trucks with Separate Journal Boxes: Andrews and
Vulcan Trucks" only shows (apparently) 50 ton Andrews trucks (pgs. 37
& 38). On pg. 48 is a section entitled "Heavy Duty Trucks" that talks
about the differences between forty, fifty or seventy ton trucks
"being mainly in the size of the journal boxes and bearings, though on
higher capacity trucks the side frames and bolsters usually had
somewhat heavier sections,..." which I can't identify on an HO truck
even with my dial caliper. Photo 41 on pg. 48 is of a Buckeye heavy
duty four-wheel Andrews truck for 100-ton nominal capacity gondola
cars which has three visible springs, but nothing specifically for
70-ton Andrews trucks. Since 70-ton ARA/AAR trucks, as on the Pacific
Fruit Express R-70-2, had three visible springs I was asking whether I
needed to try to modify some Andrews trucks to show the three springs.
Now I know I don't, but that brought up my question about a source
for all the info, answered by Dennis.

Every time I turn around it seems I know less and less and have more
and more questions about Steam Era Freight Cars.

Walter M. Clark
Time stopped in November 1941
Riverside, California

I had no problem at the National Reservation Center, when making my
reservation last night. Except for under standing the operator.
Dan Stainton

That all seems plausible, Tom, but the prototype for the model in
question (if there actually was a prototype) could not have been used
for anything but on-site storage, since the WEX reporting marks weren't
in the ORERs; such a car could not have been used to deliver materials
to overcome massive service outages since it could not have been
operated in interchange.
Richard Hendrickson

Just quick search for "long beach 1933 earthquake telephone service restoration" shows that there were some emergency plans in place for catastrophic quakes, under these circumstances they may have traveled under government orders and not in interchange possibly. This would be a case of national emergency and not business as usual.

It would be interesting to see if there ever was a disaster big enough for this to occur, it would make an awesomely obscure diorama!

Jim Eckman

--- In STMFC@..., Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Dennis Storzek wrote

70 ton trucks had spring groups with FIVE spring positions during
the steam era; 40 and 50 ton trucks had four.

I don't know why you say that Dennis. Lots of 50 ton trucks
had 6 springs, and even more had 5. On page 972 of the 1953
CBC are diagrams of 3 styles of Barber trucks, including S-2,
with 6 springs. All of them are 50 ton trucks.

Tim O'Connor

Tim,

In response to your comment, I went back through the CBCs to refresh
my memory concerning track capacities and spring groups.

It appears that early in the twentieth century, the ARA was hard at
work trying to standardize the various components that made up a
freight car truck. They had recommended standard dimensions for
bolsters, spring planks, springs, and spring caps, the part that keeps
the springs in alignment between the spring plank and truck bolster.
There is a full page plate repeated in every CBC between 1922 and 1957
that I have access to that illustrates the recommended standard spring
caps. These specified size A, B, C, and D (later with a "-2" appended)
for trucks to be used on 30, 35, 40, and 50 ton cars, all having four
spring positions arranged in a square. I say spring positions because
each position could have both a normal diameter outer spring and a
smaller diameter inner spring; for modeling purposes we are only
concerned with the visible outer springs. Size E (later H) caps,
having five spring positions, were specified for trucks for 70 ton
capacity cars, and size F (later P-2) having six positions, for cars
of 90 and 100 ton capacity. These spring arrangements are correct for
archbar, Andrews, and I believe the original ARA cast steel truck with
integral boxes using spring planks. So, my answer to Walter was
entirely correct, as far as Andrews trucks are concerned.

However, by WWII, the creativity of the manufacturers was again
outstripping the old ARA recommended standards. The illustrations of
the "Self-aligning spring-plankless double-truss truck... AAR
conditions" in the 1940 and 1953 CBC (I'm sure it was in the '43 and
'46, also) show five coil positions for the 40 and 50 ton trucks, and
seven (six in a row showing) for the trucks to be used on 70 ton cars.
You are absolutely correct, both the ASF Ride Control and Barber S-2
trucks follow this later practice, and as the vast majority of the
cars being delivered after WWII had some sort of friction wedge
dampened truck, five springs became very common on fifty ton cars.

Good for Accurail. Makes our 70 ton cast truck a better stand-in for
50 ton trucks :-)

By the way, I like the idea of a Wiki for carbuilder's specialties,
but unfortunately, the best source of photos and drawings to
illustrate it are in the CBCs, which are mostly still under Copyright.
Not going to be easy to do without illustrations.

Dennis

On Sat, July 21, 2007 9:06 pm, tmolsen@... wrote:

List,
How many of you have called the 800 number for the hotel and have gotten
the "we are almost sold out" answer? This is because the folks at the
National Reservations for Holiday Inn are holding out for people who are
willing to pay the regular price for the rooms. This is the same stuff
the Holiday Inn National Reservations Bureau did last year.

I'll second this and add that I was able to get the $89 rate from the 800
number, but I had to really fight for it. The person I spoke with
acknowledged the special rate and then proceeded to tell me the room rate
was $119. After repeatedly requestion the "advertised rate of $89" she
finally gave me exactly the same room at $89.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce Smith
Auburn, AL

List,
How many of you have called the 800 number for the hotel and have gotten the "we are almost sold out" answer? This is because the folks at the National Reservations for Holiday Inn are holding out for people who are willing to pay the regular price for the rooms. This is the same stuff the Holiday Inn National Reservations Bureau did last year.

Call the hotel direct using the local Naperville number listed on your info sheet from Martin. I spoke with the Holiday Inn Select at Naperville directly on this Monday past and they had not as yet finished adding into the computer all of the information from the contract that Martin has signed. They expected to have it all in by this weekend! He has a large block of rooms reserved, so call the hotel DIRECT during the day and make your reservation. The rate for the meet is $89 per night!

Tom Olsen
7 Boundary Road, West Branch
Newark, Delaware, 19711-7479
(302) 738-4292
tmnolsen@...

Posted by: "jerryglow2" As Richard already commented, there isn't but Carbuilders Cyclopedias
contain builders plugs on their own equipment plus a section on parts
details. Not all inclusive nor that readily available.
Jerry Glow

Certainly true for post 1906, I wonder if we can get the current publisher to allow Google to put it up on the web like the earlier editions?

Jim

Mark,
I started to prepare my reply and then received Richard's reply to your
message.

The 500 cars were built by Mount Vernon (Division of Pressed Steel Car
Co.), lot 11047. A builder's photo of 91805 appeared in the 1953 CBC as
well as Railway Age March 9, 1953. I cannot read the build dates on
this photo with any degree of accuracy as the images are quite fuzzy.
Bob's Photo offers an in-service photo of 91566 (a brand new car). It
has a build date of 5-51. Perhaps others know of more photos.

I've made trips to Mount Vernon, Illinois, to try to locate any remains
of technical data when the company went out of business in 1954, but to
no avail. Maybe someone has paint specs from railroad files. Otherwise,
AC&F paint specs for cars built in the same general time period of the
early 1950s can be used. Series 91001-91500 (built one year earlier)
had sides, ends, & running boards, painted Katy Red (Accupaint #12
Oxide Brown is a very close match). Trucks and underframes were black.
Unpainted galvanized steel roofs. This data comes from the AC&F bill of
materials for lot no. 3459. The photo of 91566 shows a little Katy Red
paint (overspray) along the top edge of the roof and peeling off in
spots.

The MKT diagram does not state what type of running boards were on the
cars. The photo of 91566 has a soft focus and the details of the
running board, and I cannot determine the type of running boards from
this photo. MKT often used Apex running boards & brake steps, but also
occasionally used U.S. Gypsum r/b and b/s on box cars built in the late
1940s and 1950s.

Cars 91501-91800 had Youngstown doors and Universal hand brakes.
91801-92000 had 7-panel Superior doors (version with wide panel 3rd
from top to allow the placard to be mounted flush on the panel).
Equipco hand brakes on 91801-91900 and Superior on 91901-92000.
Diagonal panel roofs. 8-rung ladders (I had earlier made an erroneous
entry in my roster of these cars with 7-rung ladders). Improved
Dreadnaught Ends having R+3/4 corrugation arrangement and lacking the
narrow intermediate corrugations between the main corrugations except
for under the rectangular top corrugation. ASF A-3 Ride-Control trucks
on 91501-91900 and Barber S-2-A on 91901-92000. One-wear steel wheels.

Sill steps (I respectfully request that the term "stirrup steps" ceased
being used and to use the terminology used by the car builders) were
like those offered in Branchline's kits. There were no "Be Careful"
stencils on the cars when new.

The side sill "tabs" at the cross-ties had an uncommon shape. Rather
than the more common shape having angled sides, these were rectangular
in shape with a chamfer at the bottom. Refer to a photo to get the
right shape and size. If using the BT model as a starting point, these
should be changed. Hope this helps answer your questions.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Your problem was that you used shellac that was too old. Most shellac has a
shelf life of one year, and the date is always on the can. Failure to dry
is the issue with old shellac. I have frequently used shellac and get very
good results with it. It dries quickly and is easy to clean up.

--
Atty Raymond G. Meyer
110 E. Main St
Port Washington, WI 53074
262-284-5566
rgmeyer2@...

On Jul 21, 2007, at 4:02 PM, Mark Heiden wrote:

I'm looking for some information regarding the as-delivered paint and
details for some Katy 40ft steel boxcars from series MKT 91501-92000.
I haven't had any luck finding photos, hence the laundry list of
questions.

There's a builder's 3/4 view of M-K-T 91805 in the 1953 Car Builders'
Cyclopedia.

1. Were the roof, ends and underframe painted differently from the
sides of the car?

No; the entire car appears (in this b/w photo) to be the same color.

2. Was the "Be Careful" lettering, located near the side ladders and
grab irons of so many Katy boxcars, part of the original paint for
these cars?

No.

3. What sort of running boards were these cars delivered with?

Apex-type steel grid.

4. What sort of brake wheels did these cars have?

Equipco Type 3750C

5. What sort of stirrup steps did these cars have?

Modeled by Proto Power West Type C.

6. I have found conflicting information as to when and by whom these
cars were built: by ACF in early 1951 or Mt. Vernon in 1950. Are
either of these correct?

Mt. Vernon Division of the Pressed Steel Car Corp., 1950. Ends were
"Dartnaught" (i.e., postwar Dreadnaught without the smaller
intermediate ribs), doors were Superior 7-panel, trucks aren't clearly
visible in the photo but look as if they might have been Barber S-2s.

Richard Hendrickson

+Given the compressability of wood, I don't think this is necessary.
Besides, the chances that you completely sealed the interior are extremely
remote.

--
Atty Raymond G. Meyer
110 E. Main St
Port Washington, WI 53074
262-284-5566
rgmeyer2@...

George - No, the cars will be available for a year. - Al

Those already exist, more or less. The are called RFID tags (which is what AEIs are too) and are available as small (1 x 1 inch, 1 x 3/8 inch, and similar) self-adhesive films less than .020 thick. You could put them on the undersides of loads, inside house cars, and so forth.

I think many modelers *like* the idea of using car cars though . . .

KL

Hello everyone,

I'm looking for some information regarding the as-delivered paint and
details for some Katy 40ft steel boxcars from series MKT 91501-92000.
I haven't had any luck finding photos, hence the laundry list of
questions.

1. Were the roof, ends and underframe painted differently from the
sides of the car?

2. Was the "Be Careful" lettering, located near the side ladders and
grab irons of so many Katy boxcars, part of the original paint for
these cars?

3. What sort of running boards were these cars delivered with?

4. What sort of brake wheels did these cars have?

5. What sort of stirrup steps did these cars have?

6. I have found conflicting information as to when and by whom these
cars were built: by ACF in early 1951 or Mt. Vernon in 1950. Are
either of these correct?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Mark Heiden

Dennis Storzek wrote

As to a project to publish an all-encompassing book detailing all the
trucks, doors, ends, etc. used by the carbuilders over the years, I
think one of the reasons it hasn't been done yet is none of us is
really sure we understand each and every line well enough that there
won't be more information coming to light at some point that adds even
more detail.

The ideal medium for this information is a Wiki, moderated by enough
experts (like Wikipedia has) to expunge bogus information. We started a
mailing list a while back to explore this idea, but with a more limited
idea of an electronic ORER that could link virtually every car listing
to relevant information. With any Wiki, you need a server, network,
software, people to support these -- all of which costs money and/or
takes up a lot of time. The virtue is that it can be amended with new
information by any of thousands of experts (who individually may only
be expert in a very limited field) and it can grow to encompass almost
any railroad subject matter.

A book is incredibly limited in this respect -- a Wiki can easily hold
1,000 books worth of information, all of it cross-indexed at everyone's
fingertips.

The web already has an incredible amount of railroad information, but
it's not organized, so I end up with hundreds of bookmarks and put my
Google Desktop to work trying to mine those web sites, but it still
feels like looking for a needle in a haystack at times...

Tim O'Connor

I'm trying to track down what a couple of weigh station symbols meant:
DS on the Boston & Maine and J on the Lackawanna. Can anyone help me
out?

Richard Hendrickson

I only wish for one hobby advancement -- a very small (about the
size of a baby aspirin) programmable "AEI" tag so we could retire
all the car cards and buttons and other means that we use to keep
track of cars on the layout. Scanners could be hand held and used
by the yard operator or crew to scan cars in a train wherever its
appropriate on the layout. A PC then could keep track of the cars
and generate new destinations for cars when they finish their
trips, and print switchlists or waybills as needed/desired. Of
course the scanners should be wireless too, just to make it easy.
Found a car and don't know where it belongs? Just scan it and the
PC will tell you... I figure such devices should cost about $2
or less. Also the devices could encode the owner of the model,
so they may offer a small amount of security over other methods,
if hidden inside the model...

Tim O'Connor

--- In STMFC@..., "wmcclark1980" <walterclark@...> wrote:

Thanks, Dennis. I already have several pair so that really makes my
shopping easy <g>. Now, related to your reply, exactly where would I
look, or what book(s) would I need to have, to be able to answer my
question, and others about various trucks? Is there one source that
would cover most if not all trucks that would commonly be seen on
Steam Era Freight Cars in the late 1930s through early 40s?

Walter,

The most common source for info such as this was/is the Car Builder's
Cyclopedia (originally Car Builder's Dictionary, later Car &
Locomotive Cyclopedia) published periodically every couple of years
from the late nineteenth century and throughout the twentieth.
Unfortunately, these are not commonly available (although the 1940 was
reprinted by Kalmbach years ago, and the 1922 is currently available
on CD). Since these were published to show what was the "latest and
greatest" in the industry, one needs access to a number of these books
to trace the history and design changes in any given item. In
addition, as it has been pointed out, the CBC only provided a broad
overview; one needs to find historic manufacturer catalogs or other
documentation to learn the full details. Otherwise, the information
published in the CBC is open to varying interpretations, as I will
touch upon in the reply I still owe Tim O'Connor.

As to a project to publish an all-encompassing book detailing all the
trucks, doors, ends, etc. used by the carbuilders over the years, I
think one of the reasons it hasn't been done yet is none of us is
really sure we understand each and every line well enough that there
won't be more information coming to light at some point that adds even
more detail. None of us wants to be responsible for attaching a name
to a class of product, only to be proven wrong later, as in the
decades old misconception that all cast steel trucks are "Bettendorf"
trucks. My own personal reality check came a while back when I was
looking for information on early T section trucks produced by
Bettendorf; I quickly found examples of FIVE distinctly different
pattern sideframes, only one of which is illustrated in the CBCs, the
same photo being used issue after issue while the product evolved.

This is, after all, what keeps the hobby interesting.

Dennis