Date   

Re: accupaint primer

Ed Hawkins
 

On Jul 27, 2007, at 3:56 PM, timboconnor@... wrote:

Who is Greg Conrad? Accupaint is not an acrylic paint, it's a
printing ink.
Greg Martin's advice sounds good for most acrylic paints, but not AP.
Tim,
The late Greg Konrad was the person behind the original Badger
Accuflex, later Testors Accuflex.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins


Re: accupaint primer

rgs0554
 

--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn@... wrote:


Oh MY GOSH...



I would not use any synthetic thinner on ACCUPAINT least of all Acetone (dangerous stuff).
Greg Martin
Hi Greg, If you should happen to read the label on a pint of Accupaint thinner you would
learn it contains Acetone, Methylethyl Ketone, Propyl Alcohol, Diacetone Alcohol. It currently
costs $15.95 a pint at Walthers. That's $127.50/gallon! Thats kinda expensive air brush
cleaner. Acetone, a component of AP at $14/gal works fine as an air brush cleaner. Regards,
Don Smith


Re: accupaint primer

Tim O'Connor
 

The old bottles were not airtight. So over time (years) the thinner
in the bottle evaporates. Adding new thinner will revive the "paint".

Also, I have a large jar of Accupaint thinner for stripping. Many old
Front Range and McKean models were painted with this same stuff.
They can be incredibly hard to strip but when I drop them in this the
color just washes off.

In fact we owe Accupaint and Star to Fred Becker, who discovered it
in the first place, and shared the information with George Bishop,
whose Accucals and Accupaint were transformed. Previous to that
time, George used a different vendor -- Floquil -- for his paint.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "radius158" <gard158@...>
Since accu-paint ia apparently pre thinned, what need is there for
thinner except for cleaning the airbrush ? Doug Gardner


Re: accupaint primer

Tim O'Connor
 

Who is Greg Conrad? Accupaint is not an acrylic paint, it's a printing ink.
Greg Martin's advice sounds good for most acrylic paints, but not AP.

AP can be diluted with lacquer thinner, but why would you want to? I suppose
if you wanted to slow down the evaporation of the thinner, so it had more
time to attack the styrene model, then by all means use lacquer thinner.

Accupaint's own thinner is highly volatile and evaporates in a few minutes,
which is why the stuff dries so fast. Acetone is not terribly aggressive and
it's no worse than Accupaint's own formula of MEK, alcohols, and acetone,
but I think using Acetone alone the paint may not flow as well and may not
dry as fast. Accupaint and Star paints are highly water-absorbent -- so if
you spray in a humid climate or a dry climate, the results may differ quite
a bit. The MEK by the way helps Accupaint to adhere strongly to styrene,
which is why it is so wonderful for styrene. It can be sprayed directly on
brass, but it's not going to stay there if the model is handled. It's needs a
primer on brass, and I use a primer on resin too when using Accupaint.
(Otherwise I've had variable results with resin.)

And yes, Star and Accupaint are the same product, from different vendors.
I'm sure that's been mentioned one or two hundred times here...

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: tgregmrtn@...

Oh MY GOSH...



I would not use any synthetic thinner on ACCUPAINT least of all Acetone
(dangerous stuff). From past conversations with Greg Conrad regarding his
product it was a very pure form of Acrylic. Jim Six once boasted of using
lacquer thinner with this paint and I had a conversation with Greg regarding
Jim's statements and he stated that it SHOULD never have done anything but
conjeal. We have had the discussion regarding using something other than
manufacturers thinners wiuth paints and I have always believed, Why reinvent the
wheel??

One recommendation he displayed at the 1994 NMRA convention in Portland was to
paint the item and use a hairdrier to "shrink" the finish and it does shrink to
fit. SAWEET paint if you could keep the shelf life (I converted mine from
plastic bottles to glass) long enough to use it up.



I have had very good results in the past with this now not available paint using
distilled water and a couple of drops of Ammonia (which slows the dry time), but
that was before they made a specific thinner. I always used a double action
Badger airbrush for Acrylics.



Greg Martin


-----Original Message-----
From: pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 4:10 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: accupaint primer


I've used Accupaint some and have success using acetone as a thinner.
I've been told that it's more of an ink than a paint so it matches the
colours in the Accucal decal line. I've not used it on brass so can't
comment on it's durability in that regard but on styrene it worked fine.
Pierre Oliver


Re: Bagged Cement Car

Tim O'Connor
 

Mont

I just wonder if real cement could chemically interact with the type of
paint you put on the model ... or with the model itself, resin, plastic or
brass. We need a chemist I suppose to answer this question.

Tim

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
Tim and all,

I too have heard talc has been used in the past and I may end up there after
sampling the cement. Chalk dust also seems to be a good idea.

What concerns you about real cement?

I was taught the following when involved in the ready-mixed concrete business:

--cement is the powdery stuff used in concrete
-concrete is cement and aggregate combined to make sidewalks and the like

Mont Switzer


Re: accupaint primer

radius158
 

Since accu-paint ia apparently pre thinned, what need is there for
thinner except for cleaning the airbrush ? Doug Gardner

--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn@... wrote:


Oh MY GOSH...



I would not use any synthetic thinner on ACCUPAINT least of all
Acetone (dangerous stuff). From past conversations with Greg Conrad
regarding his product it was a very pure form of Acrylic. Jim Six
once boasted of using lacquer thinner with this paint and I had a
conversation with Greg regarding Jim's statements and he stated that
it SHOULD never have done anything but conjeal. We have had the
discussion regarding using something other than manufacturers
thinners wiuth paints and I have always believed, Why reinvent the
wheel??

One recommendation he displayed at the 1994 NMRA convention in
Portland was to paint the item and use a hairdrier to "shrink" the
finish and it does shrink to fit. SAWEET paint if you could keep the
shelf life (I converted mine from plastic bottles to glass) long
enough to use it up.



I have had very good results in the past with this now not
available paint using distilled water and a couple of drops of
Ammonia (which slows the dry time), but that was before they made a
specific thinner. I always used a double action Badger airbrush for
Acrylics.



Greg Martin


-----Original Message-----
From: pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 4:10 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: accupaint primer







I've used Accupaint some and have success using acetone as a
thinner.
I've been told that it's more of an ink than a paint so it matches
the
colours in the Accucal decal line. I've not used it on brass so
can't
comment on it's durability in that regard but on styrene it worked
fine.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "radius158" <gard158@> wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with Accupaint primer..or other
accupaint
colors?

ie does it need to be thinned?

Any other thinner rather than expensive accupaint thinner?

thanks Doug Gardner




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Re: accupaint primer

radius158
 

Do you thin it?

--- In STMFC@..., tgregmrtn@... wrote:


Oh MY GOSH...



I would not use any synthetic thinner on ACCUPAINT least of all
Acetone (dangerous stuff). From past conversations with Greg Conrad
regarding his product it was a very pure form of Acrylic. Jim Six
once boasted of using lacquer thinner with this paint and I had a
conversation with Greg regarding Jim's statements and he stated that
it SHOULD never have done anything but conjeal. We have had the
discussion regarding using something other than manufacturers
thinners wiuth paints and I have always believed, Why reinvent the
wheel??

One recommendation he displayed at the 1994 NMRA convention in
Portland was to paint the item and use a hairdrier to "shrink" the
finish and it does shrink to fit. SAWEET paint if you could keep the
shelf life (I converted mine from plastic bottles to glass) long
enough to use it up.



I have had very good results in the past with this now not
available paint using distilled water and a couple of drops of
Ammonia (which slows the dry time), but that was before they made a
specific thinner. I always used a double action Badger airbrush for
Acrylics.



Greg Martin


-----Original Message-----
From: pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 4:10 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: accupaint primer







I've used Accupaint some and have success using acetone as a
thinner.
I've been told that it's more of an ink than a paint so it matches
the
colours in the Accucal decal line. I've not used it on brass so
can't
comment on it's durability in that regard but on styrene it worked
fine.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "radius158" <gard158@> wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with Accupaint primer..or other
accupaint
colors?

ie does it need to be thinned?

Any other thinner rather than expensive accupaint thinner?

thanks Doug Gardner




______________________________________________________________________
__
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's
free from AOL at AOL.com.




Re: Bagged Cement Car

Roger Robar <rrobar@...>
 

_____

On Behalf Of RUTLANDRS@...
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Bagged Cement Car



Fred,
It works great!! I've had no problems with it at all. The dust that I
got was a sort of real light mint green, darn near white, that I was unable
to
match with my Bragdon Powders. Putting this onto a black car was an
eyepopper
and on my HO B&O grey cars it just made a world of difference.
Be careful and be sure that you get CEMENT, not CONCRETE.
Chuck Hladik

Remember; cement becomes concrete when mixed with water.

Roger Robar, modeling the B&M in NH


Re: Bagged Cement Car

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

Tim and all,

I too have heard talc has been used in the past and I may end up there after sampling the cement. Chalk dust also seems to be a good idea.

What concerns you about real cement?

I was taught the following when involved in the ready-mixed concrete business:

--cement is the powdery stuff used in concrete
-concrete is cement and aggregate combined to make sidewalks and the like

Mont Switzer
timboconnor@... wrote:

I don't think I'd use real cement on a model... I've heard that talcum
powder works. (Same thing that they put in "flat" clear coat paint.)

I saw a nice weathered PS2 model on Ebay that had a nice "shadow"
effect that can be seen on a freshly dusted freight car, when the hatches
are open during loading -- After the hatches are closed, there would be
a "shadow" of the open hatch on the car roof. You wouldn't want to do
it on more than one or two cars, but the effect is arresting.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...>
Vinegar will clean your car next time.
Clark Propst




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Re: accupaint primer

Greg Martin
 

Oh MY GOSH...



I would not use any synthetic thinner on ACCUPAINT least of all Acetone (dangerous stuff). From past conversations with Greg Conrad regarding his product it was a very pure form of Acrylic. Jim Six once boasted of using lacquer thinner with this paint and I had a conversation with Greg regarding Jim's statements and he stated that it SHOULD never have done anything but conjeal. We have had the discussion regarding using something other than manufacturers thinners wiuth paints and I have always believed, Why reinvent the wheel??

One recommendation he displayed at the 1994 NMRA convention in Portland was to paint the item and use a hairdrier to "shrink" the finish and it does shrink to fit. SAWEET paint if you could keep the shelf life (I converted mine from plastic bottles to glass) long enough to use it up.



I have had very good results in the past with this now not available paint using distilled water and a couple of drops of Ammonia (which slows the dry time), but that was before they made a specific thinner. I always used a double action Badger airbrush for Acrylics.



Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: pierreoliver2003 <pierre.oliver@...>
To: STMFC@...
Sent: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 4:10 am
Subject: [STMFC] Re: accupaint primer







I've used Accupaint some and have success using acetone as a thinner.
I've been told that it's more of an ink than a paint so it matches the
colours in the Accucal decal line. I've not used it on brass so can't
comment on it's durability in that regard but on styrene it worked fine.
Pierre Oliver

--- In STMFC@..., "radius158" <gard158@...> wrote:

Has anyone had any experience with Accupaint primer..or other accupaint
colors?

ie does it need to be thinned?

Any other thinner rather than expensive accupaint thinner?

thanks Doug Gardner




________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.


Painting With PBL and Accupaint Lacquers

rgs0554
 

The subject of painting with Accupaint has again been raised on STMFC. I've used
both Accupaint and Star Brand lacquer paint for years and would like to offer these
comments. I suspect the two paints come from the same manufacturing source and are
blended and bottled respectively by SMP Industries (Accupaint) and by Peterbuilt
Locomotive Works (PBL Star Brand). Whether true or not, both paints act very similarly.
PBL Star Brand is a bit thicker and PBL emphasizes that Star Brand must be thinned about
40% paint and 60% thinner. I find the two paints to be complementary. Star brand offers
several excellent shades of freight car red/brown as well as black, white, wood weathering
colors plus BN, SP and UP diesel colors. Over the past 15 or so years Star Brand has
ALWAYS! been available. Accupaint has many shades of green, blue and maroon as well as
their range of other railroad colors. Taken together they offer great colors in a fast drying
paint with excellent shelf life similar to that of Floquil of 40 years ago. Both paints
normally dry in less than an hour. Both paints are very sensitive to humidity. When I lived
in Colorado it was sometimes necessary to add retarder to them. I'm now again living in
Michigan and do not need to. I do use a paint booth with external ventilation when
painting with them. For both paints I use Dupont 3696S Acrylic lacquer thinner. The last
gallon I bought a couple of years ago was $30, I know that's expensive but a gallon of
acetone which I use for air brush clean up is currently $14/gal.

Over the years I too have had paint adhesion problems both with some resin kits and
when masking multicolor paint jobs on styrene. A few years ago MRR had an article about
using an auto body paint adhesion promoter for celcon or delrin diesel handrails. I bought
it. The first try was great but as the months went by problems developed. Trying to paint
a model with an Aerosol can is kinda like swatting a fly with a sledge hammer and when
the product was sprayed into a container to captured and re-sprayed with my air brush, it
left spider webs. I went back to the auto paint store and found a PPG product called
DPX801 Plastic Adhesion Promoter. It was $40 per quart. It is a low viscosity pinkish
liquid. I've used it for about a year with no shelf life problems. I now prime resin
assembled kits, trucks and styrene items which I intend to mask with it. I'm quite pleased
with the results.

This system of painting gives me excellent results for most of my painting needs. I
deviate from it only when painting brass for which I use oven baked Scalecoat 1. You can
check out Star Brand paints at PBL's website which is
www.p-b-l.com

Regards, Don Smith


Re: Bagged Cement Car

Charles Hladik
 

Tim,
I'm no chemist by a long shot, but it's been 2 years and the cement has
not affected Weaver's paint, which I imagine is Scalecoat.
Chuck Hladik



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Re: Bagged Cement Car

Tim O'Connor
 

I don't think I'd use real cement on a model... I've heard that talcum
powder works. (Same thing that they put in "flat" clear coat paint.)

I saw a nice weathered PS2 model on Ebay that had a nice "shadow"
effect that can be seen on a freshly dusted freight car, when the hatches
are open during loading -- After the hatches are closed, there would be
a "shadow" of the open hatch on the car roof. You wouldn't want to do
it on more than one or two cars, but the effect is arresting.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "rockroll50401" <cepropst@...>
Vinegar will clean your car next time.
Clark Propst


Re: Bagged Cement Car

Frederick Freitas <prrinvt@...>
 

Chuck,

Have you had satisfactory results with the cement dust? How does it react to an overspray of dull finish without drawbacks? Enquiring mind, etc.

Fred Freitas

RUTLANDRS@... wrote:
Mont,
Are you going to use REAL cement to weather your B&O car? I went down to
a local plant and got a butter tub full of real cement for free!! Have used
it on my O scale Lackawannna cars.
Chuck Hladik

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Re: oiling journals (Was Holes, etc...)

Dennis Storzek <destorzek@...>
 

--- In STMFC@..., Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

There are indeed a number of different commercial Babbitt
compositions. I assumed in Dennis's remark that he was referring to
other soft bearing metals, of which there are several. I don't think he
meant that bare bronze was used in freight car journals. If that was
meant, I'd like to know the source of the info.
Dennis had better step up with a clarification :-) Dennis was going
from memory from his active days in railway preservation, more than a
few years ago. Dennis' memory says that he's seen journal bearings
that were not babbit lined, but then again, now that he thinks back,
they may have been from a streetcar, or they may have been traction
motor axle cap bearings from a streetcar. Similar in function, similar
in appearance, but not from a railroad freight car. Since the ARA long
ago published specifications for "Lined Journal Bearings" , and the
ARA (later AAR) bearings would be the only ones used in freightcars,
I'll concede that Larry has it right, and I was thinking of something
else.

Dennis


Re: Bagged Cement Car

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Mont Switzer
To: STMFC@...

Under normal circumstances there is a lot of cement dust flying around in a cement plant. They do a better job of controlling it now than back in the 1950's , but it is still all over the place. So a car setting in a cement plant awaiting loading and/or spotted for loading would be subject to this dust. The same conditions could exist with the consignee also.

And then there is the possibility that while the car was in the cement plant something terrible happened which means heavy dust. This happened to my automobile in the 1960's (I was driving a steam era auto at the time) and I had to rub out the paint to get rid of the cement dust.

Funny you should ask about cement. I'm in the process of weathering a B&O N-34 covered cement hopper.

----- Original Message -----

Thanks Mont.

I'd hate to have worked there and parked my car in the lot every day. . .

KL


Re: Bagged Cement Car

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

Mont gave good info. But, the white dusting could also have been from a
fertilizer plant or other facility that handled light colored powered
material and the car was at the wrong place at the wrong time.
Generally, a car was only in a plant for a couple days, but if the RR
had assigned the car to a pool more buildup would occur.
Vinegar will clean your car next time.
Clark Propst


Re: oiling journals (Was Holes, etc...)

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Anthony Thompson To: STMFC@...

C'mon, Kurt, that's like saying steel has carbon in it, so graphite is called "steel" by some. It's so silly a remark that I assume you're joking. I sure hope so.
There are indeed a number of different commercial Babbitt compositions. I assumed in Dennis's remark that he was referring to other soft bearing metals, of which there are several. I don't think he meant that bare bronze was used in freight car journals. If that was meant, I'd like to know the source of the info.
BTW, Kurt, "bronze" is actually a generic term for a number of copper alloys OTHER THAN brass, that is, alloyed with something other than zinc. There are phosphor bronzes and aluminum bronzes, to name just two. In fact, some copper alloy listings call the one we're speaking of as "tin bronze."

----- Original Message -----

See, I knew you'd enjoy it.

KL


Re: oiling journals (Was Holes, etc...)

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Kurt Laughlin wrote:
Babbitt metal doesn't have a single defined composition, IIRC, but it is
mainly tin with about 10% copper. "Bronze" is kind of a generic term for
copper - tin alloys, so there is some overlap in the terms. Both are
characterized as copper alloys under the UNS Cxxxxx designation, as are
brasses, cupronickels, and nickel silvers.

In other words Larry, what some call "Babbitt" is called "bronze" by others.
C'mon, Kurt, that's like saying steel has carbon in it, so graphite is called "steel" by some. It's so silly a remark that I assume you're joking. I sure hope so.
There are indeed a number of different commercial Babbitt compositions. I assumed in Dennis's remark that he was referring to other soft bearing metals, of which there are several. I don't think he meant that bare bronze was used in freight car journals. If that was meant, I'd like to know the source of the info.
BTW, Kurt, "bronze" is actually a generic term for a number of copper alloys OTHER THAN brass, that is, alloyed with something other than zinc. There are phosphor bronzes and aluminum bronzes, to name just two. In fact, some copper alloy listings call the one we're speaking of as "tin bronze."

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@...


Re: Chalk Color

Mont Switzer <mhts_switzerm@...>
 

Guys,

The stuff I was referring to was really chalk just like in school. When we wanted to make it write on things chalk normally would not (tire shipments come to mind) we would soak it in water (buy a cup of coffee from the machine, drink it, fill the cup with water, soak the chalk for 15 minutes) making it seem "greasy."

It never occurred to me that some of the freight car makings might be with a crayon like stick. It might depend on how long you wanted the marking to stay or what you had available.

Jack is right, we are getting a little far afield here.

Mont Switzer
Jack Burgess <jack@...> wrote:
We are getting way off base, freight car wise, but in my experience in
construction, "keel" was not chalk but more like crayons.

Jack Burgess
www.yosemitevalleyrr.com

I have spent 50 years in the construction business and have much
experience
with various "chalks" (sometimes called "keel") and have always
suspected,
but
have not verified, that RR car markings were done in a similar
material. It
is
slightly "greasier" than classrom chalk, therefore making a very
clear and
bright mark. It came in white, yellow and blue and since blue does not
photograph well in old b&w film, some of the white markings may
well be blue.
Mont's description fits this material perfectly.

CJ Riley





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