Date   

Re: Accurail gon

Tim O'Connor
 

F&C, Sunshine and Bowser all make GS or GSh gondolas. They
are a distinctly PRR design. The GSh is a rebuild of the GS.

Tim O'Connor

Also how accurate is the Pennsy car? Called a GSh, I'm confused by the
model having a blt date of 12-44 and P70-12-44. Was this common Pennsy
practice to use a place instead of new? I assume these were home built
cars. Clark Propst


Accurail gon

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>
 

A friend sent me links to a couple drawings on the Accurail website of
their new gondolas. I have a couple questions.
That scheme with the large CNW was only applied to the cars with the
large `H' beam side posts, correct?
Also how accurate is the Pennsy car? Called a GSh, I'm confused by the
model having a blt date of 12-44 and P70-12-44. Was this common Pennsy
practice to use a place instead of new? I assume these were home built
cars.
Clark Propst


Re: care of freight car film (was Soph Marty's slides)

Richard White
 

Tim O'Connor asked:
"Can slides be washed? I know some prints can be washed with
distilled water, but can you wash the slides or negatives?"

YES - use distilled water. If greasy fingerprints need to be removed, add a little detergent of a (usually cheap) brand without Lanolin or other additive. Rinse repeatedly in several changes of distilled water and dry in air.

This has worked for me in cleaning Kodachrome slides which had been handled by children. They are still in good order nearly 20 years later.

Richard White


Re: N&W B-1 Boxcar Service Dates and Fates

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Kurt,

Actually, some of them are still in service. AFAIK, they were rebuilt in the 1950s with new bodies (ends were retained). Some became the 49300 double-door series, and others were given 8' doors and numbered in the 54970 range. A few of the latter cars are still in MW service. I photographed one just a couple of years ago on the NS Shenandoah division.

You can find photos at: http://imagebase.lib.vt.edu/browse.php?folio_ID=/trans/nss .

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff

Kurt Laughlin wrote:

When did the N&W B-1 boxcars (similar to PRR X31As) go out of service, and what were their fates? In my 1961 ORER the number series seen in photos (46xxx, low 47xxx) isn't listed, but at that time the cars would have been less than 30 years old, rather early to scrap out an all-steel boxcar. Were they renumbered or sold off?

Thanks,
KL




Yahoo! Groups Links




You wreck It, You Buy It!

Rupert & Maureen <gamlenz@...>
 

I don't know the history behind it but the CB&Q ended up with 52' 6" Milwaukee flat 65507 and it became the only member of class FM-15, renumbered to 91850. I believe the flat was built in about 1938, was damaged by fire, rebuilt at Galesburg in 1942, and lasted on the roster until 1968.

I presume that the CB&Q was responsible for the damage, but if anyone can fill in some details, I'd be very grateful.

Rupert Gamlen
Auckland NZ


Re: Our digital "heritage"

William Keene <wakeene@...>
 

Blair and group,

Venturing a bit off topic regarding steam era freight cars here, but
let's continue...

I believe that those that have an interest in freight cars took photos
of freight cars because they had that interest. The digital age did not
change that attitude. And the persons that take those digital photos
know what they are doing is of archival knowledge. I trust that they
will preserve as best as each can that knowledge.

I really doubt that any more thought than in the example above was made
by the steam era photographer/historian. What you are interested in you
will preserve.

Case in point... my granddaughter will be 4 years old in September. To
date Grandpa has taken about 20,000 digital photos of her. All are
catalogued. All have been transfered to the current archival quality
CD. My point with this example is that photographers saved, and will
continue to save, what is most important to them. It is a personal
journey.

I am in debt to those that came before me (and perhaps some of my age)
that had the interest, the desire, the ability, and took the action to
preserve the photographs of the steam era freight cars that we have. To
them I send a very heartfelt THANK YOU.

-- Bill Keene
Irvine, CA

On Aug 9, 2007, at 7:17 PM, bean_bowl wrote:

I tend to agree with Jerry's below statement, with a caveat: people are
by their very nature lazy. Many of the gems of photographs of Steam
Era
Freight Cars weren't necessairly created originally with an eye
towards
their surviving 100 years into the future to aid historians and
modelers. . . often, they were just snapshots that someone took of an
interesting freight car, scene, or event. And from there, many of them
just ended up in a shoebox of family photographs, uncatalogued, cross-
indexed, or "preserved" intentionally. Tossed into a box and
forgotten,
until someone down the road discovered them and realized they were
little slices of history.

Today's digital shoebox for "most" digital photographers (I refer to
Joe Six Megapixel and his point and shoot used for casual photography)
is the hard drive on his desktop computer. Often, these images aren't
backed up, and it isn't uncommon for a big hard drive crash to wipe
these images out. The neighbors and photos of their kids, the guy at
work and his classic car collection, etc--all wiped out because folks
who get into digital because it seems "so easy" and "cheaper than
film"
don't take seriously the need to back stuff up and archive it. The
vast
majority of digital images never get printed into a hard copy, so
their
survival is entirely dependant upon their creator's fastidiousness in
backup.

This isn't only the case with amateur photographs, of course. Steam
Era
Freight Car historians have it far far better than the next generation
of researchers will. The big railroads today store very little in the
way of company records on paper, rather, it is backed up and stuck
into
warehouses until the point it is no longer required by the government
and then trashed. The paper that is produced is largely shredded,
jammed into a container, and sent overseas for recycling. I really
wonder in the future what the "21st Century Freight Car Modeler" will
do for prototype date beyond photographs. There won't be much of it to
pick through.

Sadly, Jerry, I think your friend is largely correct about our fiture
history being one of lost digital information.

--blair kooistra

Jerry Michaels wrote:
"I get a kick out of the fear about scanned slides and digital
photographs. I have a friend who believes that there will be no
historic records of our current times because digital photos will not
survive. I would never subscribe todestroying original slides or
negatives, but I have no qualms about digital
scans. As long as you take care of them like you would a slide, save
them all as .tif's for archives and reburn them every 3-5 years, they
will last. And I agree with what Jack wrote. It is inconceivable that
the computer industry would change to some new data storage format
without having the ability to cross over from previous formats."



Re: N&W B-1 Boxcar Service Dates and Fates

James F. Brewer <jfbrewer@...>
 

Kurt,

Many of the N&W B-1 boxcars were rebuilt and reclassified to B-1A and B-1B. This basically involved putting a new body on the underframe, etc.

Jim Brewer

----- Original Message -----
From: Kurt Laughlin
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 10:53 PM
Subject: [STMFC] N&W B-1 Boxcar Service Dates and Fates


When did the N&W B-1 boxcars (similar to PRR X31As) go out of service, and what were their fates? In my 1961 ORER the number series seen in photos (46xxx, low 47xxx) isn't listed, but at that time the cars would have been less than 30 years old, rather early to scrap out an all-steel boxcar. Were they renumbered or sold off?

Thanks,
KL


Re: contact adhesive in sheets

Steve SANDIFER
 

I have been using Barge Cement for several years to lay track and do numerous other things. The first thing I do is thin it about 50% and then painat it on whatever. It will dry tacky. When I get things positioned like I want them, I hit it with some MEK on a brush and it reactivates and is glued. I like it very much, however I need to say that MEK is dangerous stuff and needs to be well ventolated. I also found that Barge is only available in larger sizes if you have a resale number, which thankfully I have. If you are concerned about your kids or grandkids gaetting into the drug culture, stay away from this stuff.

Steve Sandifer


ed_mines <ed_mines@yahoo.com> wrote:
Denny's message regarding Barge cement taught me a couple of tricks.
I'm going to get some when my tube of Goo runs out.

In the mid '80s I saw some contact adhesive similar to Goo in sheets,
layered between 2 sheets of backing paper. My employer had them die cut.

The operator would peel of one side, put the adhesive in place, burnish
it and then peel off the other paper backing. We were laminating 2
sheets together. The second sheet would be alligned with the the first
sheet and then the assembly was burinshed again.

I always thought this would be great for gluing photoetched roof walks
in place.

Does anyone know where you can get small quantities of this material?

Ed


N&W B-1 Boxcar Service Dates and Fates

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

When did the N&W B-1 boxcars (similar to PRR X31As) go out of service, and what were their fates? In my 1961 ORER the number series seen in photos (46xxx, low 47xxx) isn't listed, but at that time the cars would have been less than 30 years old, rather early to scrap out an all-steel boxcar. Were they renumbered or sold off?

Thanks,
KL


Re: Soph Marty's slides from BEK

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Jim Eckman wrote:
You should take care of prints or CDs or DVDs but as long as you do they will last a long time. Less than 5 years is scary nonsense, I have readable CDs I have burned from 10 years ago.
"Scary nonsense" is BS, Jim. I have some Imation and Fuji disks LESS than five years old which have died: dark blotches of corrosion/oxidation reaching in from the edges. DO NOT fool yourself on the longevity of these things.
I too have disks up to 13 years old which are fine; but I have much younger ones which have failed. It ain't just age, my man.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Our digital "heritage"

bean_bowl <bkooistra@...>
 

I tend to agree with Jerry's below statement, with a caveat: people are
by their very nature lazy. Many of the gems of photographs of Steam Era
Freight Cars weren't necessairly created originally with an eye towards
their surviving 100 years into the future to aid historians and
modelers. . . often, they were just snapshots that someone took of an
interesting freight car, scene, or event. And from there, many of them
just ended up in a shoebox of family photographs, uncatalogued, cross-
indexed, or "preserved" intentionally. Tossed into a box and forgotten,
until someone down the road discovered them and realized they were
little slices of history.

Today's digital shoebox for "most" digital photographers (I refer to
Joe Six Megapixel and his point and shoot used for casual photography)
is the hard drive on his desktop computer. Often, these images aren't
backed up, and it isn't uncommon for a big hard drive crash to wipe
these images out. The neighbors and photos of their kids, the guy at
work and his classic car collection, etc--all wiped out because folks
who get into digital because it seems "so easy" and "cheaper than film"
don't take seriously the need to back stuff up and archive it. The vast
majority of digital images never get printed into a hard copy, so their
survival is entirely dependant upon their creator's fastidiousness in
backup.

This isn't only the case with amateur photographs, of course. Steam Era
Freight Car historians have it far far better than the next generation
of researchers will. The big railroads today store very little in the
way of company records on paper, rather, it is backed up and stuck into
warehouses until the point it is no longer required by the government
and then trashed. The paper that is produced is largely shredded,
jammed into a container, and sent overseas for recycling. I really
wonder in the future what the "21st Century Freight Car Modeler" will
do for prototype date beyond photographs. There won't be much of it to
pick through.

Sadly, Jerry, I think your friend is largely correct about our fiture
history being one of lost digital information.

--blair kooistra

Jerry Michaels wrote:
"I get a kick out of the fear about scanned slides and digital
photographs. I have a friend who believes that there will be no
historic records of our current times because digital photos will not
survive. I would never subscribe todestroying original slides or
negatives, but I have no qualms about digital
scans. As long as you take care of them like you would a slide, save
them all as .tif's for archives and reburn them every 3-5 years, they
will last. And I agree with what Jack wrote. It is inconceivable that
the computer industry would change to some new data storage format
without having the ability to cross over from previous formats."


Re: Soph Marty's slides from BEK

James Eckman
 

You should take care of prints or CDs or DVDs but as long as you do they will last a long time. Less than 5 years is scary nonsense, I have readable CDs I have burned from 10 years ago. See:

http://digitalfaq.com/media/longevity.htm

For more than you probably want to know. If you do backups and do everything on this web page you are unlikely to ever lose any data.

Jim


Re: B&O Freight Car Red

David Smith
 

On 8/9/07, jim_mischke <jmischke@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

Beware of your computer screen. It lies, it lies.



Absolutely possible, but also, as has been noted before on this list, the
color you perceive is dependent not only on the pigment in the paint, but
also the light source. So even if your computer and scanner are both
calibrated, the only way to get the "same" color as on the prototype is to
take those paint chips outside, for the prototype light source, and analyze
the reflected light with a spectrometer (and of course, hope the paint chips
haven't faded), then take model paints and analyze them under layout lights,
mixing until you get the same spectrum.

Matching a controlled color card, as Kurt describes, can get your computer
image to match the paint chip exactly for the light in the scanner, but will
still not deal with the fact that the light source for the prototype and for
the model are likely both different from the light source for the scanner.

Dave Smith

--
David L. Smith
Da Vinci Science Center
Allentown, PA
http://www.davinci-center.org


Re: B&O Freight Car Red

Kurt Laughlin <fleeta@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: jim_mischke
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2007 5:10 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: B&O Freight Car Red

Colors on the CRT:

Researching at the B&OHS archives a few months ago, I found a whole
pile of genuine B&O color chips, including the postwar freight car
color. So I scanned them to distribute to the faithful. What came
up on the screen looked nothing like what I had in my hand.

There is no way I will show these scans to anyone. They are
profoundly misleading.

Beware of your computer screen. It lies, it lies.
----- Original Message -----

Here is what a fellow I know did to capture the colors of WW II German vehicle paint that may help . . . Kodak (and I suppose Fuji, et al.) makes a color card for printing and reproduction that is an L-shape with a range of colors down the legs. He places this as a frame to what he is filming/scanning. He then adjusts the color values of the prints and images so that the color in the card match the colors he's holding in his hand. He is an extreme perfectionist, and it satisfies him.

KL


Re: Soph Marty's slides

Lindsay smith <wlindsays2000@...>
 

The Pacific Railroad Society Museum in San Dimas CA has several huge collections for archiving. We bought Gaylord boxes that hold more than a thousand 35 mm slides in acid free paper. We are scanning slides for several reasons. One is for posterity and I am planning to keep the slides in case technology evolves. One is for ease in locating images of items of interest. We also use scanned images in lantern shows with the laptop replacing the Carasel projector. If you use Photoshop and crop the scenes, the subject can be enhanced and yet maintain an "honest" presentation.
I have a huge collection of B&W negatives that requires listing and at some time thumbnails of the better items. With the computer, I do not have to do everything; I can keep the work performed for other reasons in the archive. If it takes four or five minutes per frame, there is a huge number of hours spent on even small collections.
By making several copies of the DVD or storage media, the collection can be protected if the copies are stored in several locations.
It is a significant problem and one should plan to reach his own objective as you build archives.
Lindsay Smith, Curator


---------------------------------
Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.


Re: B&O Freight Car Red

Tim O'Connor
 

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "jim_mischke" <jmischke@worldnet.att.net>
Colors on the CRT:
Beware of your computer screen. It lies, it lies.
For what seems like the billionth time...

(1) Most monitors can be calibrated to show true colors
(2) Scanners may or may not use pure white reflective light
(3) The ambient lighting where you are inspecting the physical
color chips probably is not pure white light -- what you see
with your eye is the reflected ambient light after it bounces off
the object and passes through the air through the lens of your
eye and slams into your retina
(4) Your eyeballs are not calibrated, but more than likely, as you
age your ability to perceive "true" colors and subtle variations
in color diminishes
(5) Bottom line is you have to compare apples w/ apples. There
is no other way to make a comparison. You've made an apple
pie, and you're looking at it, and saying it ain't an apple, so you
won't let anyone have a slice.

Tim O'Connor


Re: B&O Freight Car Red

jim_mischke <jmischke@...>
 

Colors on the CRT:

Researching at the B&OHS archives a few months ago, I found a whole
pile of genuine B&O color chips, including the postwar freight car
color. So I scanned them to distribute to the faithful. What came
up on the screen looked nothing like what I had in my hand.

There is no way I will show these scans to anyone. They are
profoundly misleading.

Beware of your computer screen. It lies, it lies.





Postwar B&O boxcar paint:

In the postwar era, B&O specified a number of vendors to supply
boxcar paint. Each formulation is a bit different, and oxidizes
differently over time. Plenty of room for variation in the bright
oxide red domain.

The collective wisdom at B&OHS is zinc chromate will do for a first
order approximation for 1945-1961 boxcar colors. Very subjective
until we know differently, or until the B&OHS can get this paint chip
replicated for the masses.





Pre War B&O freight car brown:

Prior to 1945, B&O seemed to mix their own paint. So did
housepainters in that day. The main pigment was ferric oxide, which
comes out a brown. Again plenty of room for variation in the
procured pigment, and the mixing. Still in the medium dark brown
domain. We've had a lot of trouble with this hue, because long
serving boxcars still wearing this paint oxidized so dramatically (to
a yucky red) by the time color film was exposed to them. The M-15j
at the Galewood freight house in the 1943 Jack Delano series at the
Library of Congress was the first freshly painted car we've
collectively seen.

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, Tim O'Connor <timboconnor@...> wrote:

Gene, you should look at the paint chips I posted - two
colors, from two paint vendors, on one order of B&O box
cars in 1951. And neither one looks like "zinc chromate"
to my eyes.

Tim O'Connor


At 8/3/2007 11:20 PM Friday, you wrote:
Bruce:
Thank you for the information. I will try the zinc chromatic
color.
Gene Deimling


Re: Film vs digital what's the flap?

Raymond Young
 

Jerry,

I have an extensive collection of slides purchased over a period of years. They are nearly all copies of original slides done on various slide duplicators. It is always likely that the quality of the copy is degraded in its rendition of small variations in intensity from that present in the original. Add to this the poor exposure and other faults caused by poor camera technique of the original photographer and many of the orininals were less than optimum.

Whether or not the copyright laws allow it, I have improved the appearance of my purchased slides through the use of Photoshop. This may be what your friend is objecting to in that colors can be shifted with Photoshop. But if the slide is of some use, I save the original and try to improve its appearance with PhotoShop, especially using Brightness and Contrast. The Gerstley Slide Collection is a case in point.

Regards,

Virgil Young

asychis@aol.com wrote:

In a message dated 8/9/2007 1:50:47 PM Central Daylight Time,
STMFC@yahoogroups.com writes:

Basically, I am not a fan of "archival scans". Film has a
well established archival value -- preserve & protect the
film, and all will be well with the world. :-) Film really
only needs to be archivally digitized if it's in danger of
degrading. Or if you need scans for a book...

Tim, I take it you are familiar with Verichrome, Ansochrome? Those nice RED
pictures we now have from film shot in the 1950s? How about the wonderful
blue cast from Ektachrome in less than 10 years? Kodachrome 64 and Kodachrome
25 seem to be holding up well, but who knows...have these films been out 50
years or more? Color shifts in film are one big reason we have such problems in
confirming freight car paint colors. I really think digital does better at
that than any film.

I get a kick out of the fear about scanned slides and digital photographs. I
have a friend who believes that there will be no historic records of our
current times because digital photos will not survive. I would never subscribe to
destroying original slides or negatives, but I have no qualms about digital
scans. As long as you take care of them like you would a slide, save them all
as .tif's for archives and reburn them every 3-5 years, they will last. And I
agree with what Jack wrote. It is inconceivable that the computer industry
would change to some new data storage format without having the ability to
cross over from previous formats.

Jerry Michels

************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


Re: Soph Marty's slides from BEK

Dennis Storzek
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, blair kooistra <bkooistra@...> wrote:

JP, there's quite a bit of study predicting the stability of
"gold" DVD's. . .some manufacturers go so far as to say "100 year
storage media," which is probably hoakum...

I'll say. If you read the fine print, all they promise is to give you
your three bucks back :-( If. . . they are even still in business.

All archival methods have their drawbacks; the film or negs won't be
worth much after the library burns down. The main advantage of digital
images is that they can be easily replicated and stored in different
places. CD's for home use; a portable hard drive stored in a safety
deposit box; even back-up on the servers of a business records
archiving service, if you wish. That and careful storage of the
originals should keep the images available for eternity, so long as
someone makes sure that when the media becomes obsolete, the material
is transferred to new media. If no one has looked at the material in
that length of time, maybe then there isn't any reason to save it any
longer :-)

I do agree with the thought that the material needs to be scanned at
the maximum possible resolution. If you can see the film grain in the
scanned image, then you know that you haven't lost any data.

Dennis


Re: Film vs digital what's the flap?

Tim O'Connor
 

-------------- Original message ----------------------
Jerry Michels wrote
.... I have no qualms about digital scans. As long as you take care of them
like you would a slide, save them all as .tif's for archives and reburn them
every 3-5 years, they will last. And I agree with what Jack wrote. It is
inconceivable that the computer industry would change to some new data
storage format without having the ability to cross over from previous formats.
Yes, well... I plan to make hi-res scans of everything I own, five days
before I die. Think of all the time & money I'll have saved by not copying
and re-copying all those scans... More time to build freight cars!

Tim "we're just dust in the slide tray" O'Connor

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