car classes

rockroll50401 <cepropst@...>

Jim Singer sent me a copy of an article about a major industry where I
live. The brick and tile operation used Class D and E cars. The article
was about how they were trying to prevent damage in box cars. I have
Milwaukee damage claim reports from the mid 50s and there are plenty of
tile damage claims. One of their concerns was bowed ends. They used
straw or hay as packing, they were looking at alternatives like chip
board and palletizing when possible. I believe the article date is 54
or 55. This company shipped 5000 carloads of clay products a year from
5 Iowa plants.
Clark Propst

Re: Coins as car weights

Manfred Lorenz

--- In, BERNARD SPINELLI <bspinelli@...> wrote:

on 8/14/07 11:48 AM, Garth G. Groff at ggg9y@... wrote:

Go out a buy a bag of lead shot #8 at any gun shop. It will last you a
lifetime & will fit in any spot on a car. Use epoxy to set the shot.
I have used curtain weights as well. These are woven over with fabric
into long "worms". Helps to keep them glued down with epoxy.


Re: Stick on weights. Was Coins as car weights.

Douglas Harding <dharding@...>

About 5/6 years ago I went to my local tire dealer and asked about stick on
weights, the kind used on alloy wheels. They wouldn't sell me a handful, but
did offer to get me a box the next time they needed some. Took a month or
so, but I got a box of 360 count 1/2 oz weights (11+ lbs) and a box of 360
count 1/4 oz weights (5.5+ lbs), all for less that $50. And because they
came on the regular tire delivery truck from the warehouse, no shipping
charges. Nice living in a small town.

And they have to use something to balance tires in California, so check your
local tire dealer. I have essentially a lifetime supply. And the adhesive is
tough, remember these things stick to wheels rotating at highways speeds
over all kinds of roads.

Doug Harding

Re: hopper loads

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>


The coal and coke I saw, both in survey, at mines, and in hopper cars, did
vary a lot. The sizes were determined by the usage and customer needs, and
included "egg" , "lump" and other designations you can find more on on the

In general, anthracite was shipped in larger chunks befitting its use in home
heating and other specialized uses, and looked very shiny; almost like

Bituminous was less shiny, but could be anything from shiny to very dull, but
was generally not as sharp-edged compared to anthracite, and also could be in
more varied sizes in a given load, given a lot of its use in big power plants
or steel mills. I have always thought of it as more "dusty" looking.

Both we very black to dull grey.

Coke was very irregular in shape, and almost a blue-grey in appearance.

There are lots of nice pre-made loads that represent coal, ranging from the
anthracite-looking shiny loads Kadee makes, to the dusty bituminous-looking
ones that Mr. Plaster and others make in resin or plaster. You can also take
the crummy ones you get in hopper kits and cover them with the real thing,
which you have to do for coke, anyway.

Have fun!

Elden Gatwood


Re: Stick on weights. Was Coins as car weights.

Lindsay smith <wlindsays2000@...>

The manufacturer sells cases of the wheel weights that weigh about 360 pouinds. So the car parts guys are reluctant to have a slow mover in big quantity on the shelf. PPW or A-Line sells it in reasonable size packages.

I made some special sized weights from the zinc sheets from the Dentist X-ray film packs. I used some of the wife's waste nail polish to glue it into a mass.
L:ots of junk will work in covered cars, I have fun stuffing straws for "pipe loads" in my gons.


Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story.
Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.

Re: Freight Car Music

Westerfield <westerfield@...>

No one has ever topped Jimmy Forest's Night Train, the closest thing to a blues tone poem ever. - Al Westerfield

Re: Tim Gilbert

Rob Kirkham <rdkirkham@...>

Ian - thanks for passing along this sad news! Tim was a great source of information on how to analyse published data on railways, and willingly contributed his insight to my own efforts with Canadian data. Over the years I enjoyed watching as he continued to develop his analyses of freight car distributions and movements, and our collective understanding is far better as a result. With the work he and Dave Nelson have done, more than a few myths have been revealed as such. I'll miss his posts and friendship on this list.

Rob Kirkham

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Wilson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 6:19 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Tim Gilbert

Hello List:

Pardon me if this has been mentioned--there is no trace of such in the
list archives--but I have only learned this morning of the passing of
Timothy Andrew Gilbert (Feb. 27/41 - June 20/07). Aside from being a
steady contributor to this list, Tim was of great assistance to me
whenever I called upon him. His lengthy and thoughtful messages were
typed using the "hunt and peck" method, no less. He was also a steady
customer of ours, and the reason we learned of his passing was a note
from Nicholas Goretski, the executor of his estate, in reply to a flyer
we sent Tim regarding our upcoming book release.

Ian Wilson
Canadian Branchline Miniatures
Box 2565, Orillia, ON L3V 7B1
Publishers of books on CNR steam operations in Ontario during the 1950s

Yahoo! Groups Links

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 8/14/2007 5:19 PM

Re: weighting open top cars (was: Stick on weights. Was Coins as car weights)


2 solutions:

On car kits with the metal weights to go under the slope sheets, cut sheet lead to the same shape. Lead will be heavier, but not enough to solve the total light car problem.

I also use lead wool (like steel wool but lead). It can be molded into just about any shape and glued into cavities on the underside of the hopper. You can get it at any good plumbing supplier.

I want all of my cars to be as close to NMRA weight as possible without loads. I use lightweight loads and don't depend on them to get the weight up.

J. Stephen (Steve) Sandifer, MMR
Home: 12027 Mulholland Drive, Meadows Place, TX 77477, 281-568-9918
Office: Southwest Central Church of Christ, 4011 W. Bellfort, Houston, TX 77025, 713-667-9417

----- Original Message -----
From: Miller, Andrew S.
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 1:07 PM
Subject: [STMFC] weighting open top cars (was: Stick on weights. Was Coins as car weights)

I cast weights for hopper cars to put in the cavity under the slope
sheet and inboard of the slope sheet support sheet over the bolster.

I do this by cutting a triangular notch in the edge of a 1x3 the same
shape as the cavity I intend to fill. I then sandwich this between two
pieces of plywood and clamp the three pieces in a vise. I then melt
solder into the cavity. When it has cooled, I remove the three boards
from the vise and voila, cast weight for a hopper car! Actually I cut
several cavities in the same 1x3 so that I have a few weights cooling
at once.


Andy Miller

-----Original Message-----
On Behalf Of Mont Switzer
I still don't have a "pat system" for weighting open top cars.

Mont Switzer

Re: N&W G4 vs. CNJ rebuilt WE gondola


Pieter -

I am an "O" scaler. I did the drawings for these cars for Pacific
Limited, an "O" scale importer, about ten years ago, and they were
imported from Korea in 2000.

At that time, we could not find any photos of CNJ/RDG cars as
composite cars. Furthermore, the CNJ/CRP cars had a cubic capacity
which indicated they were ALL STEEL very early - (by 1944?) - so I am
not convinced that all were really composite cars - maybe only a few
were! That was a pre-internet, simpler time, and that does not mean
that the photos of composite cars are not out there somewhere! I do
recall a photo of a steel conversion of the CNJ gon having (a) an
extra plate at the far ends of each side (the plate goes from the
bolster to the end of the side, and covers up the "open" area below
the 4" X 4" angle in the open air below the floor) and (b) ends with
THREE Y-shaped panels in them.

That being said, the N&W cars were UNIQUE among 52'-6" composite war
emergency gons in having only TWO Y-shaped panels in each drop end!
No other cars had these N&W style drop ends. Also, only the CNJ/RDG
cars had the little rectangular plates at the bottoms of the sides.
All other cars of this type had an opening from the bolster to the
end sill under the floor angle.

Some of the N&W cars, as built, had four side boards in each side;
some had five. All other cars built to that plan had five boards,
except LV, which had four also. This makes a difference in the rivet
pattern on the side braces. I cannot tell from the Crier Gray
website which one they modeled! CNJ/CRP cars probably had the five-
board configuration, if they started out as composite cars.

A prototype photo of the CNJ/CRP/RDG cars would help!

A.T. Kott

--- In, "pieter_roos" <pieter_roos@...> wrote:

Hi all;

I'm planning on acquiring the Cryer Gray Foundry N&W G4 model as a
re-built CNJ war emergency gondola.

Does anyone see major differences between the N&W model and the CNJ
version? Or, for that matter, anything different from any other
railroad's rebuilding, except the Rock Island's corrugated panels?

If there are things that need changing I may get the unpainted
of painted black but unlettered model. BTW, it's S scale, so options
like Tichy or F&C versions don't work! :~{

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Pieter Roos

Re: Question regarding NC&StL / Monon steel gons

Tony Higgins

FWIW, there was an L&N 42' 9-panel gondola, series 50000-56499, built
by Pressed Steel in the late 20s. ORER shows 4300 of these in 1955.
Both this and the NC&StL cars have the same width and height to
within an inch and lengths to within a foot. There is a picture from
UofL archives showing the four center stakes extending slightly below
the straight bottom edge of the side. These were built as drop bottom

Tony Higgins

--- In, Ray Breyer <rtbsvrr69@...> wrote:

Hi everyone,

Frank Hodina just emailed me, asking about a NC&StL 42 foot gon
pattern he's currently working on. It's the GB-12 class, 44000-44499
series, which were 9 panel cars built by P-S in 1949. He's found a
series of Monon cars that are very similar (3001-3300, P-S built in
1948. The ends are different), and he's wondering if there were any
other close matches out there. If any of you know of any decent
matches, now's the time to speak up!


Ray Breyer

Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative
Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Re: Coins as car weights

bdg1210 <Bruce_Griffin@...>


For maybe for the first time in the few years I have followed this
list a topic has appeared that I am actually quite knowledgeable
about and that is health and safety. "Lead vapor", fumes, or dusts
are actually the most dangerous route of entry (inhalation) for
lead. It gets into the blood stream quite quickly and completely
through the lungs. Ingestion (eating or through the mouth) is
usually a secondary route of exposure for adults and less of the
product is absorbed into the blood stream. Ingestion is the primary
route of exposure for children whose "safe" exposure levels are about
1/5 that of an adult when using blood lead levels to measure
exposure. Children are much more susceptible to lead exposure as it
can effect brain development (it doesn't take much). Adult's brains
are pretty much developed so on average they can tolerate higher
levels of exposure without negative affect to the brain, but then the
issue becomes other organs. Target organs in adults include: Eyes,
gastrointestinal tract, central nervous system, kidneys, blood, and
gingival tissue. is the pocket guide page
from NIOSH and gives general information about exposure levels for
adults. Translating the numbers, I personally might melt lead
outside, keeping my face away from the "pot" most of the time and
staying up wind. And I would only do it on very limited occasions as
over time blood lead levels can reduce without repeated exposures.
When handling lead sheets as I do at the modeling work bench, I make
it a habit to wash my hands just after handling leada to reduce the
chance of ingestion. I agree a certain amount of "care is needed" but
that includes vapors and dusts.

Bruce D. Griffin, MSOS, CSP

--- In, Anthony Thompson <thompson@...> wrote:

Garth G. Groff wrote:
I know we've disagreed about this before, and I certainly respect
scientific knowledge. However, my father used to melt lead tire
weights just as described. He was later diagnosed with lead

Handling lead with bare hands gets the oxide onto your skin,
may get it into your mouth or nose. I'd worry about that part, not
about the lead vapor.
Please do not think I was saying lead is harmless or that you
treat it cavalierly. Care is needed.
And by the way, Garth, if your father is 91 the lead must
have been TOO bad for him <meant in jest, of course>.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@...
Publishers of books on railroad history

Re: hopper loads

Norman+Laraine Larkin <lono@...>

Coke was a byproduct of the manufactured gas process,and as this process evolved, the coke was, in-turn, burned to create additional forms of manufactured gas. Beginning in the early 20th century, large volumes of coke were produced in specialized by-product coking ovens close by (or a part of) integrated steel mills.

Coke was used as the basic fuel in blast furnaces, along with iron ore and limestone, in the manufacture of molten iron. Coke ovens essentially baked bituminous coal in an oxygen free environment at high temps (~1800- 2200 degrees F.) depending on it's end use, for a period of 16-22 hours. While baking, coal released large amounts of impure gas which was routed to a by-products plant where it was refined into useable chemicals (benzene, ammonium sulfate, etc.), ammonia liquor and coal tar was separated out. The clean gas was rerouted to heat the coke ovens and blast furnaces, or to private manufactured gas companies for sale to consumers. Once cooked, the white-hot coke was pushed from the oven into a "hot car" was quenched under a water spray, then dumped into a coal wharf where it continued to cool. A conveyer would move the coke up into a screening plant where it was separated by size, or to a crusher for additional sizing. From the oven, coke ranged in size from 3- inch pieces to 8-10 -inch chunks. .

The coke plant (where I worked one summer back in the mid 50s) produced up to 2.5 M tons of coke/year in the 40s and early 50s. Some went to a nearby blast furnace, some to Boston Gas Co. for gas manufacturing, some home heating fuel, and after WWII, coke was exported to Europe. Two solid coke trains per day shipped out over both the Boston and Albany (~50 cars) and Boston and Maine (~25 cars). Coke weighs considerably less than coal, so a coke loaded standard hopper car carried no where near its maximum weight. In general, specialized high-sided hopper cars were used in dedicated coke service between coke plants and the user mills. One of the most familiar is the Pennsy H22 made by Bowser. I believe the so-called rust belt saw much coke traffic, probably in any open topped car available when the mills were in full operation.

Norm Larkin

----- Original Message -----
From: ed_mines
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007 12:21 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: hopper loads

--- In, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@...> wrote:
> Coke is flat black to dark gray in color.

How about particle size?

Was there much coke being shipped? I recall it was a byproduct of
illuminating gas and some utilities burned coke in special plants.


Re: hopper loads

CJ Riley

--- Bob Karig <> wrote:

I know one is shiny. Which one? Both?

I don't know about anthracite, but many hopper loads of bituminous that I saw
were shiny. Coke was pretty dull.

CJ Riley

Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

Re: Freight Car Music

Paul Hillman

A few years ago Merle Haggard released a great railroad album, "My Love Affair with Trains", all original songs and from the steam era.

Included are songs;

"I won't Give Up My Train", about an engineer,
"My Love Affair with Trains", written by Dolly Parton,
"Where have all the Hobos gone",
"The Miners Silver Ghost",

and many others.

Great STMFC era music.

Anyone heard it besides me?

Paul Hillman

N&W G4 vs. CNJ rebuilt WE gondola

Pieter Roos

Hi all;

I'm planning on acquiring the Cryer Gray Foundry N&W G4 model as a
re-built CNJ war emergency gondola.

Does anyone see major differences between the N&W model and the CNJ
version? Or, for that matter, anything different from any other
railroad's rebuilding, except the Rock Island's corrugated panels?

If there are things that need changing I may get the unpainted instead
of painted black but unlettered model. BTW, it's S scale, so options
like Tichy or F&C versions don't work! :~{

Thanks in advance for the advice.

Pieter Roos

Re: Tim Gilbert

Tom Madden <tgmadden@...>

Mike Brock wrote:

I, too, was startled to read about Tim Gilbert's passing. I had
noticed that he had not commented in some time and was curious
about that.
A quick search shows that Tim's last STMFC post was #63014 on 5/26/07.
Twenty five days later, he's gone - and at only 66. A blunt reminder of
the impermanence of human life, especially to those of us already well
past that age.

Thanks, Tim, for sharing.

Tom Madden

Re: Stick on weights. Was Coins as car weights.

Peter J. McClosky <pmcclosky@...>

Hello Philip,

There are 624 1/4 oz weights in the 1/4 oz box, and 360 in the 1/2 oz box.

I paid about $94.00 (total) for the box of 1/4 oz weights and the other
box of 1/2 oz weights.

The 1/4 oz weights come in at about $0.08 apiece (or $0.32 per ounce)
and the 1/2 oz weights cost about $0.15 apiece (or $0.30 per ounce).

I know this is more than pennies cost, but they are much denser, and are
easier to work with.

I have also use lead shot from a metal store. These are about 1/8 inch
in diameter. When used on a car, they are not nearly as dense (a lot of
empty space between pellets) as the solid lead. I like the "denseness"
of the solid lead, as it lowers the center of gravity of the car.

Peter J. McClosky

Philip Dove wrote:
How many weights are there in a box, and how much did they cost? I got
a bag of old wheel weights from a Tyre fitting shop for nothing from
when they rebalanced wheels, but most were curved weights with steel
clips and whatever type they were they were really filthy. I have some
lead, it was a feed pipe to a toilet cistern, but a bit of cutting and
hammering converted it into sheets of metal. The virtue of coins is
you know the weight of them before you start, and you probably have
some in stock. I also got a load of used air gun pellets from a
showman at a Midway It took a surprising amount of effort to get the
bits of paper target separated out. As someone else said off cuts of
roof flashing are probably easiest if you can get it. I've seen
Athearn cars (steel axles and steel weights) move slightly if they are
spotted over a coupling magnet.
Regards Philip Dove
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter J. McClosky
To: <>
Sent: 14 August 2007 18:08
Subject: [STMFC] Stick on weights. Was Coins as car weights.

None of the Hobby shops up here carry "Stick on Weights".

I went to every auto parts store I could find (before giving up) and
could not fine any. Most of the clerks in these stores had no idea what
I was talking about. When I explained that they were used to balance
alloy wheels they "got it"

Then I went to a tire store, and while the would not sell me any they
had in stock ("I would not have any to use"), they did pre order me 1
box each of 1/4 oz and 1/2 oz stick on weights.

I think I got a life time supply, without paying for shipping (and lead
is heavy!!!).


Jon Miller wrote:

...Lead is good but hard to get these days. Wheel
weights are not bad (lead) but you need to mail-order in CA.
Peter J. McClosky

Re: FEC's "Car Ferry Company" reefers purchased by FGE


The Florida East Coast Car Ferry Company (FECCFC), was an FEC sister
company and the predecessor to the West India Fruit & Steamship
Company, ran a railroad car ferry service from Key West to Havana,
Cuba from 1914 through the demise of the Key West Extension in the
Labor Day, 1935 hurricane. Except for a brief surge of construction
materials transhipped from Key West during the mid-1920's Florida
land boom, Key West Extension freight traffic was principally due to
the railroad car ferry.

The FECCFC had three nearly identical car ferry boats, all built by
the William Cramp shipyards in Philadelphia: the Henry M. Flagler
(built 1914), the Joseph R. Parrott (built 1916), and the Estrada
Palma (built 1920.) Plans for the boats may be obtained from:

From 1921 through 1936 the FECCFC owned a 500 car lot of USRA design
double sheathed ventilated boxcars. These were leased throughout the
entire period to the Florida East Coast Railway Company, FEC car
numbers 17001-17500. This is the Westerfield Car

At the demise of the Extension, the car ferry service was transferred
to Port Everglades, just south of Ft. Lauderdale. The FECCFC ferry
service continued there until interrupted in 1942 by World War II.
During 1942 all three boats became USN mine layers, the Keokuk,
Shawmut and Weehawken respectively.

In 1948, ferry service resumed from the Port of Palm Beach under the
successor West India Fruit & Steamship Company. The Henry M. Flagler
and the Joseph R. Parrott began the service. ( The Estrada Palma was
sunk in the Caribbean during the war.) Additional boats (City of
Havanna, City of New Orleans, Grand Haven, New Grand Haven, Sea
Level) were subsequently added.


Re: hopper loads


--- In, "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

--- In, "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@> wrote:
Coke is flat black to dark gray in color.
How about particle size?

Was there much coke being shipped? I recall it was a byproduct of
illuminating gas and some utilities burned coke in special plants.

In the vicinity of steel mills, unless produced on site, there would
be a lot inbound, as it (is/was) heavily used in steel production as
fuel and source of carbon in the blast furnaces themselves.

Tim Barney

Re: hopper loads

gn3397 <heninger@...>

--- In, timboconnor@... wrote:

Hey, don't get greedy! Accurail's already given you two unique-to-GN
freight cars (and acquired a third one from McKean) so give some other
railroads a chance! Seems to me that Accurail SORELY lacks a 3-dome
tank car...

Tim O'Connor
Yes, Mr. O'Connor, but the stockcar and boxcar don't exist yet in my era. <g>.

Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND

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