Date   

Re: Freight car condition in the 50's; weathering

Miller, Andrew S. <asmiller@...>
 

Eldon,

You have inspired me to try something. Yes, I have developed a
"pattern" to weathering that causes all my cars to look more or less
alike. So have several other members of my club. What I am going to
propose is that several of the club members who do good weathering jobs
swap virgin cars and weather each other's cars. That way we get to
incorporate into our personal fleets the different weathering patterns
each has developed.


regards,

Andy Miller


Re: Freight car condition in the 50's; weathering

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Folks;



Our recent discussions on the perceived condition of freight cars during the
steam era, weathering, and all, really got me to thinking, particularly since
I've been revisiting (and going to considerably more effort on) this subject
in my modeling recently.



I had begun to think that my weathering and treatment had become a little too
one-dimensional (or "pat"), although indeed, I wanted to evaluate the
statement by some that freight cars in the steam era were in pretty good
condition and not overly weathered or beat-up.



I went back and stared at a bunch of color photos and color guide books, in
an effort to step back and re-evaluate what I was seeing, and to make sure I
was not coloring my view with false beliefs.



I also began to think that this could also be in part due to the roads I
model, and my primary road, influencing this process.



I began a re-look at the hundreds of great color shots of cars and yards that
I have. I was immediately struck by how vastly different many of them were,
in condition. Even a given class of cars painted in the same scheme in the
same general time period might look completely different!



I also stumbled on a great photo of L&N's DeCoursey Yard, taken by John
Dziobko in 1956, in a copy of "Freight Train Cars" (pgs. 18-19), one of the
Enthusiast Color Series books, by Mike Schafer and Mike McBride. It shows
some L&N engines shifting cuts of cars around the yard, with some great
foreground subjects.



Key among these are the two gons in the immediate foreground, in hideous
condition. Honestly, they are worse than anything I have ever modeled. The
one you can only see part of is a PRR G31A, on which the only fairly
unblemished paint is on the ribs. The remainder of the car is thoroughly
rusted.



The next car is a shallow fishbelly NYC gon, which is in even worse
condition. The lettering is almost thoroughly obliterated, with NYC just
peeking through its scabrous rust. The interior is a patina of hundreds of
rust colors. A beautiful gon.



Next is a C&O radial end, in pretty good condition. Although there are large
rust colorations on the sides, the paint is pretty much intact, although the
logo is almost gone. The interior is still black.



Next is a pretty good condition Southern gon, with a somewhat rusty interior,
but otherwise in pretty good shape.



This is followed by two good condition boxes, one a NCStL yellow stripe, both
in pretty good condition, although the L&N box has lost its roof paint.



The remainder of the cars in this string look to be in pretty good condition,
although they are all weathered to some extent.



Other color yard shots of this era show similar conditions.



The point of all this is that everything is weathered to some degree. Yes,
the PRR and NYC gons are in truly horrible states. Yes, cars from other
roads are in better condition. But, not only should we include a few cars in
"just re-painted" condition, but there should also be a large number of cars
demonstrating a really broad range of weathering techniques, reflecting a
broad range of operating conditions and services. At least some should look
really horrible.



It has really inspired me to go back and keep working on making my cars more
realistic, and representative of what I see in photos. I will also try and
try to get that one car looking like that one photo, if I can do so.



Hope you can find some new inspiration, too!



Elden Gatwood


Re: Gun Tubes, WWII Arms Depots, etc.

SamClarke
 

There are a number of government publications and a few web sites that list all government and military facilities.

The Depot in Hawthorne, Nevada has about 200 miles of track within bases boundaries. Most of the time they run two locos one of which I think is (or was) a very old and rare FM diesel. The following link has some photos of the depot taken from Mt. Grant an 11,200'+ mountain that shadows the valley from the west. http://ndep.nv.gov/hwad/haap02.htm
The gun barrels are stored on the "main base" near the highway.

Tim,

I do have an extra "e" issue sometimes since my last name is Clarke with an "e" on the end.


Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

----- Original Message -----
From: timboconnor@comcast.net
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Gun Tubes, WWII Arms Depots, etc.



Sam, it's funny what an "e" can do. I mean, you could be "borne and
raised" in less than 5 seconds anywhere on earth, and even do this
hundreds of times... but being "born and raised" takes longer and can
only happen once. :-)

Tim-e O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: <mail@kadee.com>
> I've been watching this thread with great interest, since I was borne and
> raised in Hawthorne, Nevada.


Re: 65 ft. gons

Dean Payne <1payne1@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "ed_mines" <ed_mines@...> wrote:

Besides structural steel what would be some common loads for 65 ft.
steam era gons?

Would structural steel be I beams and the like?

Were electrical transmission towers preassembled (drilled and
assembled into subsections)? They would make interesting gon loads.

Years ago I met with a man who worked on a railroad during the summer
in the early '50s. He told me some kind of metal was shipped in bales
in these long gons (not scrap).

Ed
In the Spring 2005 Nickel Plate Road Magazine, there is an article on
the 66' 6" gons of the W&LE and the 65' 6" gons of the NKP, written by
Peter Shepherd. "Union Metal of Canton, a manufacturer of street
lamps and steel pilings, was a frequent user of W&LE and NKP mill
gondolas, as inside braces would have damaged their shipments." There
is a photo of a Wheeling gon with a load of poles (which appear to be
metal, I won't speculate as to their use).

Of great interest to me is the fact that the W&LE gons had no real
exterior bracing, either! They were built by the Canton Car Company
in September of 1932 (yes, the depths of the depression). They were
"almost two feet narrower than a conventional 48- or 52-feet long
gondola", to prevent "excessive swing-out of the corners on
tight-clearance industrial trackage..." Let's get back to the sides,
with no interior or exterior bracing. They did have four exterior
straps at the seams, but these had a flat cross-section. I haven't
seen a photo of the inside, but it mentions "the side plates were
riveted to inside structural members." However, they "received
mechanical designation GM". "Such cars had no inside braces or
gussets..."
So, how did they do this without having the sides get bashed to
oblivion? There are photos of examples from 1968 and 1971, looking
pretty straight and true, the last one "left service sometime in late
1982 or early 1983". (The loaders must have been skilled, but I
figured the un-loaders might be the typical ham-fisted type that
caused so many photogenic "textured" gondola sides!) And, why forgo
the external bracing, which they had on the NKP mill gons? The NKP
gons were built in 1936, perhaps the clearances were a bit less
restrictive. There IS a photo of the interior of one of these,
showing rivets and foldable stake pockets only. Boy, these are LONG
freight cars!
Dean Payne


Re: Gun Tubes, WWII Arms Depots, etc.

SamClarke
 

Hello Bruce, Tony, and Group,

I've been watching this thread with great interest, since I was borne and raised in Hawthorne, Nevada.
The Naval Ammunition Depot, Hawthorne, Nev. (NADHAW) was built in 1928 and peaked during WWII, Korea, and Vietnam. It was turned over to the Army in 1977 and to a contractor in 1980 but still under Army command.
There were maybe 20 to 30 gun barrels stored in the open right near the main highway. Some were older and some new with plugs in the ends. Years ago they shipped the last good 9 barrels to Bremerton, WA when, I believe, the Missouri was refitted, a few older ones still remain.
I remember they tried to ship the barrels by truck, everyone that new how heavy the tubes were got a good laugh when they set the first one on the trailer. Shortly after they brought in special flat cars and loaded the 9 barrels. For a couple of days it was quite a sight having the barrels lined up on flats and watching them slowly moving through the base and out on the mainline and on northward. I'm sure the bases official photographer must have taken photos of the process and there must be other photos somewhere.

Originally the narrow gauge Carson Colorado went through Hawthorne then the SP made it standard gauge and by passed Hawthorne but had a small yard at Thorne to service the connection with the Naval Depots Railroad. The SP spur came down off the Reno Salt Lake mainline at Hazen and went to Mina, Nevada, that's about 30 miles south east of Hawthorne. Sometime ago SP abandoned the line to Mina and the US Govt. now operates the spur. There still remains basically untouched roadbed of the C&C that goes right through the present Army Depot at Hawthorne.

Sam Clarke
Kadee Quality Products

----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Smith
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2007 5:40 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] My Errors & Omissions



On Aug 28, 2007, at 1:04 AM, Anthony Thompson wrote:

> Bruce Smith wrote:
>> Finally, there was also a depot for these guns in Hawthorne Nevada.
>
> Yes, the Naval Ammunition Depot, as it was called at that
> time.
> This was accessed from the SP's Mina Branch. Bruce, do you have any
> idea how extensively Hawthorne was used for naval gun tubes?

Tony,

Alas, not a clue. I'm not even sure that Hawthorne was used during
WWII, however I think it was as an ATSF routing for guns makes no
sense if they are going to Pocatello or Bremerton <G>. I do know
that several listers here pointed out that Hawthorne was the last
storage depot for the battleship guns. I believe that when they were
recommissioned, Hawthorne was the source of new gun tubes and that a
number of guns were cut up on site within about the last 30 years or so.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
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Re: A Unique Four Vat Tank Car

Jack Mullen
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Russ Strodtz" <borneo@...> wrote:

On 06-May-59 GCLX 25 was still in service. This industry
was in the CB&Q Lumber District. Contents show as Cucumbers.

Move is an Intraterminal switch. Can't really think of
where on the IHB it could have been loaded unless Libby's
had excess inventory.

Russ
In the Jan.'62 ORER, there are at least 32 pickle tank cars still
listed, including GLCX 25, the lone car remaining for Glaser, Crandell
Co. Numbers of pickle tanks that I have been able to identify in
the '30s thru early 50s were in the 100-150 range.

Around 1960, Squire Dingee still had a few cars moving between
Wisconsin and its plant at Clybourn on the C&NW. I sometimes saw these,
and rarely saw them being unloaded, when I travelled downtown as a boy.

Jack Mullen


A Unique Four Vat Tank Car

Russ Strodtz <borneo@...>
 

On 06-May-59 GCLX 25 was still in service. This industry
was in the CB&Q Lumber District. Contents show as Cucumbers.

Move is an Intraterminal switch. Can't really think of
where on the IHB it could have been loaded unless Libby's
had excess inventory.

Russ


Re: Heinz Vinegar Cars.

James Kubanick <kuban@...>
 

In the early '60s, I worked at the Heinz plant in Pittsburgh. We occasionally received wooden vinegar tank cars on our B&O siding. All of the cars I saw were of the type that AHM attempted to model as an HO ready-to-run car. I am not familiar with the Overland car and cannot comment on how close it is to the Heinz cars we received. I can say that the prototype cars were painted in a bright yellow on the tank and the car body was a brown color. The Heinz "57" logo was painted on the tank side in blue, lettering on the brown car body was white. The cars always seemed to be very clean and well maintained, in spite of their elderly appearance. At one time, Champ offered a decal set for Heinz cars and my recollection is that it could be used for these cars, although it was a generic set for several different Heinz cars. When I left Heinz in 1963 to return to school, the B&O was still delivering an occasional vinegar car.I never saw these cars enter the plant on the PRR side although I have seen them in the Pittsburgh area on the PRR.

Jim Kubanick,
Morgantown, WV

----- Original Message -----
From: boyds1949
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 9:26 PM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Heinz Vinegar Cars.


Back in March, Bruce Griffin sent the message below concerning Heinz
vinegar cars. A search showed a lot of responses, but none covered
the painting and lettering.

Heinz had a vinegar plant in Winchester, Va. I have seen a photo with
the plant in the background and there were 3 or 4 wooden tank cars on
the siding. I have one of the Overland cars, but I have no clue how it
should be painted and lettered. Does anyone know what color it was and
if decals were ever produced which would be correct for this car?

With regard to today's thread on brass tank car models, anyone
interested in the subject should go back and read message number
29762. Tim O'Connor's list with Richard Hendrickson's notes and
comments is like reading an encyclopedia.

John King

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "bdg1210" <Bruce_Griffin@...> wrote:
>
> Group,
>
> While watching a B&O video of movements in Ohio in the late 1950's I
> saw a Heinz vinegar car on a train. The car was moving west from
> Willard yard. It looked like something from the 1920's with its
> multi-banded horizontal tanks on a flat car frame. Is there a model
> for such a car? Was this an amonoly in the 1950's?
>
> Bruce D. Griffin
> Summerfield, NC
>


Re: Overland Models Tank Cars

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Aug 22, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Gatwood, Elden J SAD wrote:

Thanks, guys!

I bought mine at the Original Whistle Stop many moons ago (actually
labeled
for Brea Chemicals, which I figured I'd strip), and thought at the
time that
there must've been a prototype for a car made in brass. Argh.

Valve casing-equipped aside, the remainder of the car looks like a
lot of
other 8k insulated ACF cars. If I was brave....
The models were originally offered undecorated, and they didn't sell
very well. So OL painted and lettered a bunch of them, mostly with
bogus P/L schemes for which decals were readily available. As for the
models themselves, they were designed to get maximum variety out of
limited tooling - hence, among other things, an 8K gal. ICC-105 for
which there was no prototype.

Richard Hendrickson


Wooden Tank Cars

Russ Strodtz <borneo@...>
 

In 1959 Libby McNeil & Libby was still moving Cucumbers
from somewhere West of Denver to their plant at Blue
Island IL in LMTX cars.

At that time there were also still some SBIX cars moving
but I have yet to ascertain in what pattern, only see
them as empties.

Russ


Bethlehem steel gon photos

ed_mines
 

If anyone finds these photos on the web please let me know where.

Is that DVD steam era? Cars only? How much did it cost?

Ed


Re: Car movements

Mike Brock <brockm@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Russ Strodtz
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 7:39 AM
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Re: Car movements



----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Laughlin
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 15 December, 2006 14:14
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car movements

Posted by: "Russell Strodtz" Malcom,

I beg to differ. In the case of an intermediate switch road they were
getting very little revenue from the movement of a "Road to Road" car.
Their profit may have been about equal to one day's per diem.
=============

I don't think you are really differing from what I said so much as
expanding on it with good info on another common situation. I was objecting
to characterizing the normal pattern of interchange operation as "frantic
movement of cars".

What you say is an example of what I meant. When I said a long way from
the interchange, I was thinking hundreds of miles, which was not applicable
if you were working for one of the Chicago switching roads. Which railroad
did you work for ? I like your brief summary of the Chicago roads.

An interesting example of a whole fleet of trains not scheduled to make
per diem was NYC's westbound fleet of Chicago interchange traffic. Most of
the trains arrived Elkhart in the evening from the east and departed for
Chicago connections in the early morning hours and were interchanged before
noon. Those schedules actually reflected time sthat traffic was ready to
move in New York and New england.

Eastbound a large part of the traffic arrived and was interchange
shortly after midnight. You'll recall the IHB pullers with a 1:30 am
cutoff. Of course we should remenber that per diem was irrelevant to a
large part of the eastbound hot traffic. That was the produce and meat
traffic which was carried almost entirely in private line cars which were on
a mileage basis, not per diem.

Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478



Yahoo! Groups Links


Volume 2 in Stock and Shipping

smason22000 <smason2@...>
 

Hi folks,

"Weathering Freight Cars, Volume 2" arrived on-time yesterday, and all pre-orders have been
shipped, so you should be receiving them in a few days.

As is the policy with all my DVD's, any order received before 3:00 p.m. for in-stock items, will
be mailed out that day.

Thanks as always,

Scott Mason
www.scottymason.com


Re: Car movements

Russ Strodtz <borneo@...>
 

----- Original Message -----
From: Malcolm Laughlin
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, 15 December, 2006 14:14
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Car movements


Posted by: "Russell Strodtz" Malcom,

I beg to differ. In the case of an intermediate switch road they were
getting very little revenue from the movement of a "Road to Road" car.
Their profit may have been about equal to one day's per diem.
=============

I don't think you are really differing from what I said so much as
expanding on it with good info on another common situation. I was objecting
to characterizing the normal pattern of interchange operation as "frantic
movement of cars".

What you say is an example of what I meant. When I said a long way from
the interchange, I was thinking hundreds of miles, which was not applicable
if you were working for one of the Chicago switching roads. Which railroad
did you work for ? I like your brief summary of the Chicago roads.

An interesting example of a whole fleet of trains not scheduled to make
per diem was NYC's westbound fleet of Chicago interchange traffic. Most of
the trains arrived Elkhart in the evening from the east and departed for
Chicago connections in the early morning hours and were interchanged before
noon. Those schedules actually reflected time sthat traffic was ready to
move in New York and New england.

Eastbound a large part of the traffic arrived and was interchange
shortly after midnight. You'll recall the IHB pullers with a 1:30 am
cutoff. Of course we should remenber that per diem was irrelevant to a
large part of the eastbound hot traffic. That was the produce and meat
traffic which was carried almost entirely in private line cars which were on
a mileage basis, not per diem.




Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478






Yahoo! Groups Links


Re: 65 ft. gons

Garth G. Groff <ggg9y@...>
 

Ed,

Another common load for 65' gondolas was long poles, like telephone or power poles.

On the Western Pacific, these cars were often used alongside shorter gondolas carrying coiled steel from Geneva, Utah to Pittsburg, California for U.S. Steel. The coils were only loaded over the trucks to avoid stressing the center of the car. The WP even added roofs to a couple of their 65' gondolas.

Kind regards,


Garth G. Groff


Re: Overland Models Tank Cars

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Thanks, guys!



I bought mine at the Original Whistle Stop many moons ago (actually labeled
for Brea Chemicals, which I figured I'd strip), and thought at the time that
there must've been a prototype for a car made in brass. Argh.



Valve casing-equipped aside, the remainder of the car looks like a lot of
other 8k insulated ACF cars. If I was brave....



Thanks again for the feedback!



Elden Gatwood





________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
Richard Hendrickson
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 5:54 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [STMFC] Overland Models Tank Cars



On Aug 21, 2007, at 1:27 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

... you mentioned that the 8k insulated 105 car was bogus.
Elden

Although I can't say the 8k ACF "hi-pressure" type car (OMI 3134)
represents an actual car, I do have a scan of SACX 687, which is
about the same size, leased to PPG Chemicals in the 1960's. So
105's of this type and general appearance did exist.
SACX 687 was a 6,000 gal. car, as were many other ICC-105s built for
chlorine and similar service. As usual, the absence of evidence proves
nothing, but I have a lot of photos and data on these small ICC-105s
and I have yet to find any example of an 8,000 gal. car. And believe
me, I've looked hard for one, because I also have one of Overland's 8K
insulated ICC-105 models.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: 65 ft. gons -

Gatwood, Elden J SAD <Elden.J.Gatwood@...>
 

Steve;

I am not sure those photos are up on a site, but they were available (and
discussed previously on the list, I think) for a time from a historical
society in PA, and I got mine from them. John Teichmoelller recommended them
to me. They made a proprietary CD of photos taken at the Beth Steel plant in
Bethlehem, and included many shots of loaded cars.



Elden Gatwood



________________________________

From: STMFC@yahoogroups.com [mailto:STMFC@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve
Stull
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 11:39 PM
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [STMFC] 65 ft. gons -



Elden;

The Bethlehem Steel site, is it
www.bethlehempaonline.com ?

Thanks for the info.

Steve M Stull
Winslow 7076

--- "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
<Elden.J.Gatwood@sad01.usace.army.mil
<mailto:Elden.J.Gatwood%40sad01.usace.army.mil> > wrote:

The Bethlehem Steel photo collection is great for
this,
as they were really proud of what they could assemble
and ship.

__________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit
the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
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Re: Overland Models Tank Cars

Ed Hawkins
 

On Aug 21, 2007, at 8:42 PM, Tim O'Connor wrote:

Ed, definitely an ACF style frame. Here are my desktop
measurements with a pair of calipers as best as I can do.

Outside tank diameter 8'0"
Tank jacket length 32'7"
Tank length 33'10"
Frame length at corners 36'1"
Tim,
Following are the dimensions for the 6 PCIX cars in ACF lot 2932. It's
obvious that the model isn't based on these prototype cars. No telling
what it was based on. Next time I talk to Brian Marsh I'll ask him.
Regards,
Ed Hawkins

Truck centers: 31'-7 1/2"
Underframe length (over end sills): 42'-1 5/8"
Underframe width: 9'-8"
Jacket diameter: 90" (70" tank diameter plus 20" to account for 10"
cork insulation surrounding the tank)
Tank length: 37'-10 7/8"


Re: CV flat car lengths

Richard Dermody <ddermody@...>
 

Marty,

Can't add much more to the information provided by Glenn, Dennis, Ted and Roger, except to confirm that in a 1947 ORER I have, the 7500 and 7700 car series were listed for interchange.

Going by the AAR descriptions and diagrams shown in the 1947 ORER, they pretty much confirm that the IL of 36'10" was the platform (deck) length, while the length of 37'5" was the dimension over the strikers for both cars. The 7500's were rated for 70000 lbs, the 7700's for 100000 lbs.

Dick

On Aug 20, 2007, at 6:52 PM, Martin McGuirk wrote:

Dick,

Specifically looking at the cars in the 5100-5105; 7518-7677; and
7700-7781 series.

Marty


Re: 65 ft. gons -

Steve Stull
 

Elden;

The Bethlehem Steel site, is it
www.bethlehempaonline.com ?

Thanks for the info.

Steve M Stull
Winslow 7076


--- "Gatwood, Elden J SAD "
<Elden.J.Gatwood@sad01.usace.army.mil> wrote:

The Bethlehem Steel photo collection is great for
this,
as they were really proud of what they could assemble
and ship.



____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/

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