Date   

Re: GN double sheathed boxcars

cj riley <cjriley42@...>
 

--- Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com> wrote:

Robert D. Heninger wrote:
For whatever reason(s), GN was just a latecomer to all steel boxcars .
. . NP, in comparison, was an early user of steel boxcars, and
purchased thousands of copies of the 1937 AAR car and
derivatives, despite owning significant timberlands. So catering to
online lumber mills doesn't seem to be a factor.
That NP didn't follow the same thinking as GN doesn't prove that GN
was insensitive to its on-line lumber producers. And in this
connection, it would be interesting to see comparative lumber traffic
on the two roads.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history
I would have to add that timber is very heavily used in ALL construction to
this day in the PNW, much more so than the east. It was plentiful, local, and
cheap with no shipping charges from the steel centers. Economics probably was
as much a factor as catering to suppliers, but I second Tony's question about
where the traffic went.

CJ Riley
Bainbridge Island WA





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Re: DS/SS split, April 1949; CNW, GN, CB&Q

Richard Hendrickson
 

On Aug 27, 2007, at 12:20 PM, toddsyr wrote:

Armand Premo wrote:

"Could it have been a concession to the on-line lumber industry?"

If I'm not mistaken, I read that very fact stated on this list at one
time. Makes sense to me.

Todd K. Stearns
No, Todd, you didn't see that stated as a fact here, you saw it stated
as an inference, which is not at all the same thing. It has often been
inferred (by myself as well as numerous others) that the GN persisted
in building wood sheathed box cars as a public relations gesture toward
its many timber shippers. However, I am not aware that any
documentation has turned up which confirms that inference. It makes
sense to me, too, but there's no hard evidence.

Richard Hendrickson


Re: My Errors & Omissions

Greg Martin
 

BTW - Does anyone on this list know the routing of PRR "gun flats"
(F22's, specially equipped) between the Washington Navy Yard
and the Navy Yards at Bremerton, WA and San Francisco, CA?

I asked this question on a PRR List a month ago, and it turned into
a huge thread discussing the making of the gun barrels and the
companies who were involved. 'Not one post on the routing. <G>

John




John,

This would be an educated guess, based on old RR maps of the era for Bremerton, WA. it would have likely been, PRR-CHGO-MILW for NP delivery. The Northern Pacific was the final carrier, in this case the delivering carrier, and the line haul out of Chciago would have likely have been Milwaukee as they had a direct connection out of Tacoma, WA to Hoquiam, WA and the NP controlled traffic from there on to Bremerton

However; it could have traveled on the NP as well. But baed on the fact that Milwaukie had gun flats as well and the traffic being mostly captive and it is likely the PRR would ask the Milwaukee to share equipment with the PRR as they both shared the line hauls. I could be wong, but it makes the most sense.

Perhaps the NP guys could chime in here and let us know if they to had gun flats or there is photo evidence that they were seen on the NP.?Then it could have gone over the Q to the GN as well...

The San Francisico connection could be a bit more complicated as the SP had no direct connection out of Chicago, but could have taken the traffic?via numerous bridge routes.
?
Greg Martin??
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Re: GN double sheathed boxcars

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Robert D. Heninger wrote:
For whatever reason(s), GN was just a latecomer to all steel boxcars . . . NP, in comparison, was an early user of steel boxcars, and purchased thousands of copies of the 1937 AAR car and
derivatives, despite owning significant timberlands. So catering to online lumber mills doesn't seem to be a factor.
That NP didn't follow the same thinking as GN doesn't prove that GN was insensitive to its on-line lumber producers. And in this connection, it would be interesting to see comparative lumber traffic on the two roads.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: My Errors & Omissions

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

John Hitzeman wrote:
So, yes, 'Lexan" is a GE product, and it is polycarbonate, not acrylic, in that sense of the word. However, there are folks who will refer to "plexiglas", generically, as "lexan", too. I guess it just depends where, and who, you are.
John, sadly you're right. About like calling plexiglas "styrene," as long as it's a clear material . . . but especially on this list, we don't confuse common usage with correct usage <g>.
Let's see, there's the Bettendorf truck, and the . . .

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


GN double sheathed boxcars

gn3397 <heninger@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote regarding GN's use of DS boxcars:

"Could it have been a concession to the on-line lumber industry?"

In a word, Mr. Premo, no. I thought so too (after all, Frederick
Weyerhauser was a GN board member) but have been educated otherwise.
For whatever reason(s), GN was just a latecomer to all steel boxcars,
and throughout the steam era, built or rebuilt thousands of double
sheathed boxcars. There was no significant rebuilding of the DS fleet
to steel until 1959-1961, when several thousand of the 45000-52999
series were rebuilt. NP, in comparison, was an early user of steel
boxcars, and purchased thousands of copies of the 1937 AAR car and
derivatives, despite owning significant timberlands. So catering to
online lumber mills doesn't seem to be a factor.

Sincerely,
Robert D. Heninger
Stanley, ND


My Errors & Omissions

John Hitzeman
 

Dennis is 99.9% correct in his critique of my post. ;o)

However,?I was just trying to keep it as simple and short as possible,
so as not to "crowd" more into the list than needed.

So, I apologize for the omissions and inaccuracies on my part.
I just didn't feel it appropriate to go into all of the other info.

But, I will do so, briefly, now.

"Plexiglas" is/was the registered trade name of Rohm & Haas,
or at least it used to be -- ?? That's something else I forgot
to write previously.

Rohm?& Haas' trade name has only one "S" on the end --
Plexiglas(s) with two S's on the end is incorrect.

Some computer "spell-checkers" will try to capitalize the
"P" if you type 'plexiglas' with one "S", or if you spell it with
two S's, it will try and capitalize it, and use only?one "S".

I guess that "plexiglass" may have become the generic term
for acrylic sheet.

Also, "plexiglas" sheet is not only cast, but?can be also be extruded.

We have found that certain thickness(es) of "plex" cut better if they
are cast, and others if they are extruded, depending upon the thickness
we buy from our suppliers.

A lot of people/customers in?the commercial end of AMB,?give us that
blank look if?we say "It's made from acrylic."

It seems that they do not necessarily relate to it?---- or, the only
previous time they've heard "acrylic" is in commercials for floor polish,
or auto products.?

But, in that same commercial market, if you say,
"It's made from plex",
the greater percentage of folks seem to know
what you mean.

I mentioned working for Monsanto Company many years ago.

At that time, Monsanto was the largest manufacturer/supplier of ABS,
commercially. At least, that's what the Monsanto people told me!

I worked on several engineering jobs, with the chemical engineers,?
relative additions and modifications to?Monsanto plants producing ABS.

My statement regarding the addition of ABS to styrene was intended
to be a "blanket" one, a generalization if you will, as I am not as well
versed on the subject as?Dennis.


On another subject, about 12 years ago, we had to laser cut several
thousand small pieces of 'Lexan' (TM-GE) for a division of General Electric.

We had to make an initial cut with settings adjusted to cut through (scribe)
the coating only, as settings powerful enough to cut completely through the
material would ignite the coating -- we couldn't have that happen -- so
we would cut completely through?with several passes.

All material had to have new masking, made for laser cutting, applied
to it after the factory applied, brown paper masking was removed. This
was done before laser cutting.

This not only served to prevent ignition of the adhesive used to hold the
"brown" masking on, but it also protected the extremely "sensitive"
surface of the Lexan.

So, yes, 'Lexan" is a GE product, and it is polycarbonate, not acrylic,
in that sense of the word. However, there are folks who will
refer to "plexiglas", generically, as "lexan", too. I guess it just
depends where, and who, you are.

Once again, my apologies for previous, and future, errors and
also for expounding on a non-list related topic.

BTW - Does anyone on this list know the routing of PRR "gun flats"
(F22's, specially equipped) between the Washington Navy Yard
and the Navy Yards at Bremerton, WA and San Francisco, CA?

I asked this question on a PRR List a month ago, and it turned into
a huge thread discussing the making of the gun barrels and the
companies who were involved. 'Not one post on the routing. <G>

John


Dennis Storzek wrote:


I hate to make corrections to someone else's posting, but some if the
materials information John gives is not correct:

ABS is not added to polystyrene to make it more impact resistant, but
butadiene (one component of ABS) is one of the impact modifiers used
to make High Impact Polystyrene (H.I.P.S.). Since it is difficult to
obtain a glossy surface on H.I.P.S., acrylonitrile (acrylic) is added
to improve surface gloss, yielding ABS.

Plexiglass is a trade name for cast acrylic sheet. I'm not aware of
any coated Plexiglass sheets, since Acrylic is relatively hard and
scratch resistant on it's own.

Lexan is GE's trade name for cast polycarbonate sheet. Polycarbonate
is very tough and impact resistant (think "bullet-proof" glass) but
the surface scratches easily, as was found when transit agencies
started to use it for bus and train car glazing; the rotary brush
washers quickly scuffed the surface to an opaque finish.

As a result of this, several suppliers brought out scratch resistant
glazing under the Tuff-ack and Mar-guard trade names. These sheets are
polycarbonate with a Mylar (polyester) film bonded to each surface.

All of the above resins , except the Mylar surface films, can be
solvent bonded using methylene chloride. Unfortunately, methylene
chloride is listed by OSHA as a potential occupational carcinogen, so
it is not as readily available as it once was. Ambroid's Pro-Weld
seems to be a reasonable substitute.

















John Hitzeman
President/Owner
American Model Builders, Inc.
Now In Our 25th Year!!
LASERkit (tm)
www.rgspemkt.com
www.ambstlouis.net
www.laserkit.com






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Re: Auto transporting

Thomas Baker
 

________________________________


IN the late Fifties, Lionel came out with a 40-foot double decked auto carrier. Lionel, of course, has historically hardly been a source for prototype accuracy. Yet I wonder whether this car had some foundation in what was actually an early version of a double-decked auto carrier. Anyone know?

Tom Baker
bakert@andrews.edu


Re: Auto transporting

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
When you're talking about racks it is necessary to distinguish between the flat car builders (ACF,PS, GenAm,Bethlehem) and the rack builders (W&K,Portec,Dana,etc).
Very true, but don't forget Paragon.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Auto transporting

Tim O'Connor
 

Anyone interested in early auto racks can search the archives of
the MFCL. Jim Eager and others have posted quite a lot of good
information on this subject -- When you're talking about racks it is
necessary to distinguish between the flat car builders (ACF,PS,
GenAm,Bethlehem) and the rack builders (W&K,Portec,Dana,etc).
It's actually a pretty complicated subject, and flat cars built for one
purpose have often ended up with two, three or four incarnations
as something else!

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>
Andy Sperandeo wrote:
I wouldn't argue with Tony about the SP tri-levels, so I'll stand
corrected as far as 1959.
I think the 1960 date for auto racks is probably based on the
Pullman-Standard flat car, designed specifically for use with racks,
that was introduced that year. Earlier racks were placed on modified
piggyback or container or "general-service" 85-foot flats. In my view,
the racks did pre-date the specially designed flat cars and ought not
to be confused with them, but of course, the introduction of such a car
clearly shows that racks were a strongly emerging car type. That does
make 1960 a good watershed year for rack use.

Tony Thompson


Re: DS/SS split, April 1949; CNW, GN, CB&Q

toddsyr <toddsyr@...>
 

Armand Premo wrote:

"Could it have been a concession to the on-line lumber industry?"

If I'm not mistaken, I read that very fact stated on this list at one time. Makes sense to me.

Todd K. Stearns


Re: Auto transporting

Tim O'Connor
 

I have a scan of an early autorack with pickups on top, small
cars on the mid-deck, and large cars on the bottom deck -- all
Ford/Lincoln-Mercury.

Tim O'Connor

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>

One can, of course, debate what "introduced" means. SP built
tri-level racks in 1959 and I have no reason to think they built the
first ones. Bi-level racks were introduced at essentially the same time
and were used for pickups and vans, which were taller than automobiles.

Tony Thompson


Re: Auto transporting

Tim O'Connor
 

Don't forget simply transporting autos on trailers on
flat cars -- this was very common by the late 1950's.
The old Revell "auto transporter" kit is perfect for this
application, and the Athearn F85F flat car is a very
good model of a car built in 1960 (very similar cars
were built in 1959). Prior to that time the trailers were
transported on converted flat cars, PRR/TTX F39's,
and even converted War Emergency gondolas (e.g.
Rock Island). The auto racks eventually ended TOFC
transportation of autos.

Tim O'Connor


Re: Auto transporting

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Andy Sperandeo wrote:
I wouldn't argue with Tony about the SP tri-levels, so I'll stand corrected as far as 1959.
I think the 1960 date for auto racks is probably based on the Pullman-Standard flat car, designed specifically for use with racks, that was introduced that year. Earlier racks were placed on modified piggyback or container or "general-service" 85-foot flats. In my view, the racks did pre-date the specially designed flat cars and ought not to be confused with them, but of course, the introduction of such a car clearly shows that racks were a strongly emerging car type. That does make 1960 a good watershed year for rack use.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Auto transporting

Andy Sperandeo <asperandeo@...>
 

I wouldn't argue with Tony about the SP tri-levels, so I'll stand corrected
as far as 1959. If there were auto-rack cars in 1958, can anyone say who
built them or operated them? (I wouldn't count those earlier bi-level racks
for 50-foot flatcars, since they were clearly experimental and not
repeated.)

So long,

Andy

Andy Sperandeo
Executive Editor
Model Railroader magazine
asperandeo@mrmag.com
262-796-8776, ext. 461
FAX 262-796-1142


Re: Auto transporting

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Malcolm Laughlin wrote:
Andy says that tri-levels were introduced in 1960. how does that reconcile with the initial use of multi-levels in 1958. Were the early cars all bi-levels ?
One can, of course, debate what "introduced" means. SP built tri-level racks in 1959 and I have no reason to think they built the first ones. Bi-level racks were introduced at essentially the same time and were used for pickups and vans, which were taller than automobiles.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: Auto transporting

Malcolm Laughlin <mlaughlinnyc@...>
 

Andy says that tri-levels were introduced in 1960. how does that reconcile with the initial use of multi-levels in 1958. Were the early cars all bi-levels ?

Another kind of car used on NYC and other roads with clearance problems was called the low tri-pack. I recall vaguely something about raisable ramps at the end.


Malcolm Laughlin, Editor 617-489-4383
New England Rail Shipper Directories
19 Holden Road, Belmont, MA 02478


Re: plastic welding cement

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Dennis Storzek wrote:
I hate to make corrections to someone else's posting, but some if the materials information John gives is not correct . . .
Plexiglass is a trade name for cast acrylic sheet . . . Lexan is GE's trade name for cast polycarbonate sheet.
Thank you, Dennis. Saves me writing a blurb on this <g>. In fairness to John, many people who work with plastics do tend to lump them together, though they may be chemically and even mechanically quite different, as long as they look similar or work similarly.
As Dennis hints, to a polymer chemist the terms "styrene" or "nylon" or "ABS" are about as informative as calling a metal "steel." There are extremely many formulations of most plastics for specific uses or for cost reasons, and they are most certainly not all the same. Even Lexan is but one of a number of polycarbonates. Within a family, of course, they may cut about the same, and adhesives may work about the same--but they may not, also. Generalizing material names, as so often true in other fields, has its dangers.

Anthony Thompson
Dept. of Materials Science & Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
thompsonmarytony@sbcglobal.net


Re: DS/SS split, April 1949; CNW, GN, CB&Q

armprem
 

Could it have been a concession to the on-line lumber industry? Armand Premo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dennis Storzek" <destorzek@mchsi.com>
To: <STMFC@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 11:49 AM
Subject: [STMFC] Re: DS/SS split, April 1949; CNW, GN, CB&Q


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "Thomas Baker" <bakert@...> wrote:

The number of DS cars in the GN freight car fleet contrasts sharply
with the trend, certainly apparent by 1949, to scrap or rebuild such
cars. Growing up in Minneapolis, I recall seeing an inordinate number
of GN DS cars. One wonders what special care the railway gave its DS
cars that other roads did not expend on their fleet of such cars.

Tom
The later built GN DS cars had full steel body framing, so in that
respect were not much different from the AAR war emergency boxcars.
The "special care" was a management decision to spend more money over
the long run to periodically re-sheath cars rather than spend more
money up front for steel sheathing.

Dennis





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Pro-Weld Re: Digest Number 4811

pennsylvania1954
 

Thanks, John. I knew someone would come out bragging on Pro-Weld.
Unfortunately my LHS, which usually stocks the stuff, has been unable
to obtain it. Their supplier is Walthers, who currently lists Pro-Weld
and the 232-7000 kit as not in stock with a status of TBA, and it has
been that way at least for a couple of months. I found that it is
still listed on the Ambroid website.

Can anyone point to a source?

Thanks!

Steve Hoxie
Pensacola FL

123901 - 123920 of 189673