Date   

Re: WWII arms depots

amato@...
 

Frankford Arsenal in North Philadelphia was in full swing during WWII. I
downloaded a site map and track plan from the HABS/HAER web site. Can't say
for sure if PRR was the sole RR that served the arsenal.

It would make a *great* switching layout during the steam era...

Frank Amato


---------------------- Original Message: ---------------------
From: Bruce Smith <smithbf@auburn.edu>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Subject: WWII arms depots Re: [STMFC] Re: PRR gun flats
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 17:50:24 +0000

On Aug 28, 2007, at 12:11 PM, John King wrote:

Does anyone know of a good history or listing of the various arsenals
and depots which were in operation during WW II?
<SNIP>


DS/SS split, April 1949; C&O, PM

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

Hi Folks

Here are the numbers of box and auto cars for the C&O and PM, April
1949 and July 1950, classified by siding type. The two railroads
merged in 1947, so I include the breakdown for the combined fleet as
well.

C&O:

April 1949
C&O_____%____Number
DS_____17.9%____2,656
SS_____1.0%____146
Steel_____80.9%____11,976
Other_____0.1%____10
Known_____99.9%____14,788
Unknown_____0.1%____13
Total_____100.0%____14,801

July 1950
C&O_____%____Number
DS_____10.1%____1,455
SS_____2.6%____369
Steel_____87.1%____12,568
Other_____0.1%____10
Known_____99.8%____14,402
Unknown_____0.2%____35
Total_____100.0%____14,437

The C&O retired over 1,200 double sheathed cars between April 1949
and July 1950, nearly halving its fleet. This included reducing its
ventilator cars from 455 to 324. Its single sheathed cars more than
doubled, however, and therein lies a minor mystery discussed below.
The aluminum sided cars remained constant at 10 ("Other" in the
tables). The railroad added close to 600 steel cars, so that overall
it experienced only a slight decline during this time period.


PM:

April 1949
PM_____%____Number
DS_____10.5%____839
SS_____26.6%____2,120
Steel_____62.9%____5,016
Other_____0.0%____0
Known_____99.9%____7,975
Unknown_____0.1%____5
Total_____100.0%____7,980

July 1950
PM_____%____Number
DS_____5.9%____402
SS_____27.8%____1,887
Steel_____66.3%____4,511
Other_____0.0%____0
Known_____100.0%____6,800
Unknown_____0.0%____0
Total_____100.0%____6,800

The PM also cut its DS fleet in half, but reduced its number of SS
cars as well, by slightly more than the C&O increased its. The
number of steel sided cars declined by about 500, most (I think) by
reassignment to the C&O.


C&O/PM merged:

April 1949
C&O/PM_____%____Number
DS_____15.3%____3,495
SS_____9.9%____2,266
Steel_____74.6%____16,992
Other_____0.0%____10
Known_____99.9%____22,763
Unknown_____0.1%____18
Total_____100.0%____22,781

July 1950
C&O/PM_____%____Number
DS_____8.7%____1,857
SS_____10.6%____2,256
Steel_____80.4%____17,079
Other_____0.0%____10
Known_____99.8%____21,202
Unknown_____0.2%____35
Total_____100.0%____21,237

The merged company trimmed over 1,600 of its double sheathed cars,
nearly a 50% reduction. Its SS fleet remained nearly constant, and
its number of steel cars grew slightly.

Most or all of the growth of the C&O single sheathed cars was simply
a reassignment from the PM: For example, the 88000 series PM cars
became the 288000 series C&O (Al Brown, message #60118, this list;
see also Jim Brewer #59884 and #59961, and Al Brown #59885).
However, there are not quite enough PM cars in the series just
mentioned to cover the gain by the C&O, the "minor mystery" alluded
to above:

PM 88000-88349: 1949 = 287; 1950 = 229; loss = 58
C&O 288000-288349: 1949 = 43; 1950 = 107; gain = 64

In other words, there are 6 too few cars lost by the PM to cover the
gain by the C&O. There is also an unexplained (to me) increase in
two other PM series, 54300-54344 (1949 = 38, 1950 = 44), and 54600-
54620 (1949 = 13, 1950 = 14). Perhaps someone with access to Million
and Paton, "Pere Marquette Revenue Freight Cars" could clarify the
situation.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: PRR gun flats

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Tim O'Connor wrote:
Wow, that must have been some crane! Those things weigh more
than 1,000 tons each...
Yep.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: WWII arms depots Re: Re: PRR gun flats

michael bishop <goldrod_1@...>
 

There also use to be one at Wingate, NM, Fort Wingate Army Ordinance Depot was off of route 66 in western NM railhead by ATSF. This fort close at the end of the cold war.
MIchael


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Re: Link for color freight car photos from the 1940's

laramielarry <ostresh@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wabash2813" <vbaird@...> wrote:

Unfortunately, it isn't the one of the photos with the option to
enlarge but there in the yard is a color image of a M&W "Ball Glass
Jar
Box car"!

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana
Hi Victor

You can download a higher res JPG (134 KB) or an "archival quality"
TIFF (136 MB) of this image from the Library of Congress. To my
tired eyeballs the JPG looks just as good as the TIFF, even though
the file size is a thousand times smaller. The colors on the Shorpy
site look better than either LOC photo.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming


Re: WWII arms depots Re: Re: PRR gun flats

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

michael bishop wrote:
It is just west of Flagstaff,AZ, Navajo Ordinance Depot the link below will bring up a map of the area. And my mistake it is Camp Navajo.
Nope, it originally WAS the Navajo Ordnance Depot (no "i"), and it's covered well, with photos and map of the 50 miles of depot rail lines, in David Myrick's Railroads of Arizona, Volume 4, pp. 118, 119. Disclaimer: yes, we published the book.
Begun in WW II, it became the Navajo Army Depot in 1962, and did not become Camp Navajo until October, 1993, when the Arizona National Guard took over.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


Re: WWII arms depots Re: Re: PRR gun flats

michael bishop <goldrod_1@...>
 

It is just west of Flagstaff,AZ, Navajo Ordinance Depot the link below will bring up a map of the area. And my mistake it is Camp Navajo.

http://terraserver-usa.com/printimage.aspx?S=12&T=2&X=530&Y=4872&Z=12&P=&D=&PSIZE=11x17
Michael



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Re: PRR gun flats

Tim O'Connor
 

Wow, that must have been some crane! Those things weigh more
than 1,000 tons each...

-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Anthony Thompson <thompson@signaturepress.com>

Hunters Point, San Francisco, had a crane capable of removing
complete turrets from Iowa class battleships.


WWII arms depots Re: Re: PRR gun flats

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

Follow-up to earler message. The same B&O book had some data on the
Ravenna Ordnance Center indicating that the traffic was split evenly
between B&O, PRR, and Erie with the following carloads per month
(probably August)in 1951. B&O, 139 outbound and 62 inbound; PRR,
104 outbound and 88 inbound; and Erie 147 outbound and 43 inbound.
Outbound revenue in August 1951 was four times the revenue in August
of 1950, probably a reflection of the needs in Korea. No indicatin
of the types of cars handled.

John King


--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "boyds1949" <E27ca@...> wrote:

Victor,

Thanks. Interesting.

For a one year period (either 1950 or part 1950, part 1951) B&O put
289 loads in and took 126 out. A B&O operating data book says they
were loading small arms ammunition at that time. That book does not
indicate the traffic on other lines. I drove back in the place a
few
years ago and you could see abandoned buildings with the type of
assembly lines I've seen used to assemble artillery shells in old
documentries.

John



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wabash2813" <vbaird@> wrote:



As you may know Bruce and John, some of these depots were planned
or in
operation right before we got directly involved in WWII, even
before
Pearl Harbor--supplying our European allies. I have a proposed
track
diagram of the Kingsbury, Indiana Ordnance Depot layout dated
1939
or
1940, I believe. The Wabash, B&O, NKP and maybe the GTW serviced
this
location. I say maybe, because a connection is shown but a Wabash
railroader I interviewed only recalls the GTW during construction
and
not when it was in full operation. The depot had their own motive
power
(center cab internal combustion locos) but once in a while, other
then
setting cars out or picking them up on a wye track, a Wabash
local
might enter the Depot. My conductor friend recalls the ordnance
the
Wabash picked up during this time period going east by way of
Detroit
and Canada. (The Kingsbury Ordnance Depot was located on the
Wabash
4th
District between Montpelier, Ohio and Chicago.) I don't recall
the
exact safety measure now but he told me that trains were required
to
have the ordnance cars x number of cars behind the loco or in
front
of
the caboose. But this was not always possible with the local.

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana


WWII arms depots Re: Re: PRR gun flats

emrldsky <emrldsky@...>
 

--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, michael bishop <goldrod_1@...> wrote:

Bruce,
I think you can find info about the one at Rock Island, IL and the
one at Fort Navajo, AZ by using Google.

And, where is Fort Navajo, AZ? I see lots of Fort something-or-other,
but not that one.


WWII arms depots Re: Re: PRR gun flats

boyds1949 <E27ca@...>
 

Victor,

Thanks. Interesting.

For a one year period (either 1950 or part 1950, part 1951) B&O put
289 loads in and took 126 out. A B&O operating data book says they
were loading small arms ammunition at that time. That book does not
indicate the traffic on other lines. I drove back in the place a few
years ago and you could see abandoned buildings with the type of
assembly lines I've seen used to assemble artillery shells in old
documentries.

John



--- In STMFC@yahoogroups.com, "wabash2813" <vbaird@...> wrote:



As you may know Bruce and John, some of these depots were planned
or in
operation right before we got directly involved in WWII, even
before
Pearl Harbor--supplying our European allies. I have a proposed
track
diagram of the Kingsbury, Indiana Ordnance Depot layout dated 1939
or
1940, I believe. The Wabash, B&O, NKP and maybe the GTW serviced
this
location. I say maybe, because a connection is shown but a Wabash
railroader I interviewed only recalls the GTW during construction
and
not when it was in full operation. The depot had their own motive
power
(center cab internal combustion locos) but once in a while, other
then
setting cars out or picking them up on a wye track, a Wabash local
might enter the Depot. My conductor friend recalls the ordnance the
Wabash picked up during this time period going east by way of
Detroit
and Canada. (The Kingsbury Ordnance Depot was located on the Wabash
4th
District between Montpelier, Ohio and Chicago.) I don't recall the
exact safety measure now but he told me that trains were required
to
have the ordnance cars x number of cars behind the loco or in front
of
the caboose. But this was not always possible with the local.

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana


Re: Link for color freight car photos from the 1940's-more photos, another link

wabash2813 <vbaird@...>
 


Re: Link for color freight car photos from the 1940's

Anthony Thompson <thompson@...>
 

Bruce Smith wrote:
Whereas my favorite shot (which I have posted here before) shows a
really trashed B&O M26, an equally trashed gon (D&H?) a nearly new
NYC paint job and a moderately weathered Erie car.

http://www.shorpy.com/images/photos/1a34787u.jpg
Yes, I remember studying this one too. One of its challenges is the two box cars visible behind the gon: the W&LE and the IC. Both are dark with dirt, yet their lettering is quite visible. This is probably the well-known "chalking" behavior and it isn't at all trivial to model. The only way, probably, is to weather somewhat both before and after decaling.

Tony Thompson Editor, Signature Press, Berkeley, CA
2906 Forest Ave., Berkeley, CA 94705 www.signaturepress.com
(510) 540-6538; fax, (510) 540-1937; e-mail, thompson@signaturepress.com
Publishers of books on railroad history


WWII arms depots Re: Re: PRR gun flats

wabash2813 <vbaird@...>
 

As you may know Bruce and John, some of these depots were planned or in
operation right before we got directly involved in WWII, even before
Pearl Harbor--supplying our European allies. I have a proposed track
diagram of the Kingsbury, Indiana Ordnance Depot layout dated 1939 or
1940, I believe. The Wabash, B&O, NKP and maybe the GTW serviced this
location. I say maybe, because a connection is shown but a Wabash
railroader I interviewed only recalls the GTW during construction and
not when it was in full operation. The depot had their own motive power
(center cab internal combustion locos) but once in a while, other then
setting cars out or picking them up on a wye track, a Wabash local
might enter the Depot. My conductor friend recalls the ordnance the
Wabash picked up during this time period going east by way of Detroit
and Canada. (The Kingsbury Ordnance Depot was located on the Wabash 4th
District between Montpelier, Ohio and Chicago.) I don't recall the
exact safety measure now but he told me that trains were required to
have the ordnance cars x number of cars behind the loco or in front of
the caboose. But this was not always possible with the local.

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana


Re: WWII arms depots Re: Re: PRR gun flats

michael bishop <goldrod_1@...>
 

Bruce,
I think you can find info about the one at Rock Island, IL and the one at Fort Navajo, AZ by using Google.





---------------------------------
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.


Re: Link for color freight car photos from the 1940's

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 28, 2007, at 12:37 PM, wabash2813 wrote:

They do have the option to enlarge the photos: It's usually in the
caption below the photos. That Muncie & Western box car looks
relatively clean.
Whereas my favorite shot (which I have posted here before) shows a really trashed B&O M26, an equally trashed gon (D&H?) a nearly new NYC paint job and a moderately weathered Erie car.

http://www.shorpy.com/images/photos/1a34787u.jpg

Now that's the range of weathering that we have been talking about <VBG>!

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


WWII arms depots Re: Re: PRR gun flats

Bruce Smith
 

On Aug 28, 2007, at 12:11 PM, John King wrote:

The questions concerning the movement of the naval guns from
production, to testing, storage and installation are interesting, and
remind us that similar proceedures were in place for much of the
ordinance used during the War.

Does anyone know of a good history or listing of the various arsenals
and depots which were in operation during WW II?
No but there were quite a few!

Many seem to have
been located where they could be served by multiple rail lines. How
did they work together? Were freight cars modified or built for
dedicated service to connect them? etc?
The movement of ordinance was controlled and "coordinated" by the military. I use quotes on coordinated because there are lots of instances when it wasn't <G>. The depot system was fairly well established by mid 1943, with shipments going from the factory to storage depots and then to embarkation depots and thence overseas. Some items got moved around more than that. Most shipments were handled on regular freight cars, although there were serious shortages of some types, most notably 70 ton flats. Flats and gons were used for tanks and other armor as well as trucks. Crated parts often went by gon. Automobile cars were used for many wheeled vehicles. One example of a specially modified car is the PRR's X31F "turtle roof" automobile car which were X31 class cars with the roof bumped up to accommodate jeeps (shameless plug - we're building X31s including X31Fs on PRRPro RIGHT NOW!). Additional types of cars (some AT&SF boxcars come to mind) were modified to carry things like airplane parts (wings etc). Ammunition, small arms and other supplies were moved in regular house cars.

Regards
Bruce

Bruce F. Smith
Auburn, AL
http://www.vetmed.auburn.edu/index.pl/bruce_f._smith2

"Some days you are the bug, some days you are the windshield."
__
/ &#92;
__<+--+>________________&#92;__/___ ________________________________
|- ______/ O O &#92;_______ -| | __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ |
| / 4999 PENNSYLVANIA 4999 &#92; | ||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||__||
|/_____________________________&#92;|_|________________________________|
| O--O &#92;0 0 0 0/ O--O | 0-0-0 0-0-0


Re: Link for color freight car photos from the 1940's

wabash2813 <vbaird@...>
 

They do have the option to enlarge the photos: It's usually in the
caption below the photos. That Muncie & Western box car looks
relatively clean.

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana


Re: Link for color freight car photos from the 1940's

wabash2813 <vbaird@...>
 

Unfortunately, it isn't the one of the photos with the option to
enlarge but there in the yard is a color image of a M&W "Ball Glass Jar
Box car"!

Victor Baird
Fort Wayne, Indiana


Re: Gun Flats

Greg Martin
 

You Know Denny I didn't mention the barge route as it occured to me that the weight of the loads might have been an issue, and the fact that the bigger barrels would likely have been considered a "hight and wide" and might not be barged, but certainly for smaller barrrels it would be and likely was a reasonable option, however I could be wrong. My son-in-law was stationed at Bremeton for four years on the Carl Vinson and I often got a good look around the facilities and wonder what it might have looked like in years past, interesting trackage.

John's interest forced me to dig through our company archives here at work, [we have lot bunch] and the MILW maps are part of that. One can only imagine the empire that existed here in the pNW if we could step back 60+ years in time...

Greg Martin

-----Original Message-----
From: Denny Anspach <danspach@macnexus.org>
To: STMFC@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 8:08 am
Subject: [STMFC] Gun Flats






Oops! I had not seen Bruce's post on the Pocatello assignment of these flats.

The assignment of the Milwaukee flats to Pocatello is interesting.
Why would the Milwaukee have built these flats to let another
railroad get all the haulage? In this regard, I would suspect that
the routing to Bremerton from Pocatello would have been via Butte,
perhaps also involving both clearance reasons, and the fact that the
Milwaukee had the access rights to the Bremerton Navy Yard
(presumably by the Milwaukee's fairly extensive Seattle car barge
operations).

Denny
--
Denny S. Anspach, MD
5603 Lakeshore Drive
Okoboji, IA 51355
712-332-2914




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