Tom

I guess that Martin also "has a life" as we like to say,
that has nothing to do with trains. More power to him.

That said, has Martin ever expressed any problem with someone
scanning his kit flyers and data sheets and just posting them
on a JPEG web site? Technically one would need his permission
to do so. I'll ask him at Naperville, if I can get his attention
for a whole minute... :-)

Tim O'Connor

On Sep 8, 2007, at 8:36 AM, laramielarry wrote:

Hi Folks

Does anyone know whether the following NKP series of box and auto
cars were double sheathed vs. single sheathed? Some remnants were in
the April 1949 ORER, but all were absent from the July 1950 ORER.
Most series were nearly full in the January 1945 ORER, however. If
you also happen to have build or rebuild dates, I would appreciate
knowing that as well.

Series, Class, Type, Frame, IL, IH, door, CAPY, Qty 1945, Qty 1949

NKP 9000-9467, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 9'11, 6'0", 80000 lbs, 466, 13

NKP 11000-11299, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 8'8", 6'0", 80000 lbs, 204, 5

NKP 12000-12999, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 10'0", 6'0", 80000 lbs, 987, 31

NKP 21000-21299, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 8'8", 6'0", 80000 lbs, 198, 7

NKP 23000-23044, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 10'0", 10'0", 80000 lbs, 45, 2
(in the 1945 ORER, this was listed as class XA, Auto)

NKP 9000-9467 and 12000-12999 were originally 19000-19999 and
20000-20999 series cars built in 1923 and 1924. Both series were
double wood sheathed with 10' wide 1-1/2 wood doors; the 1923 cars had
inverse 4-panel Hutchins ends, the 1924 cars had 5-5-6 inverse
corrugated ends. In the early 1930s, delivery of steel auto cars
rendered these cars obsolete as auto cars so they had their auxiliary
doors either secured shot or removed entirely, making them single door
cars. They were then renumbered into the 12000-12999 series until that
series was full, after which the remaining cars were renumbered
9000-9467. Photos of cars in both series will be in the forthcoming
Focus on Freight Cars Vol. 2.  NKP 11000-11299 and 21000-21299 were
originally double wood sheathed auto cars in the 18000-18799 series
built ca. 1917 with 7-7 inverse corrugated ends, 10' wide 1-1/2 wood
doors, and Bettendorf T-section trucks. In the late 1920s 300 of these
cars were converted to double door cars with 12' wide openings and
corrugated steel doors and renumbered 21000-21299. Within a short
time, however, the NKP began securing the auxiliary doors shut and
making them single door cars. The remaining cars in the series were
then converted to single door cars with their auxiliary doors removed
and the openings sheathed over and corrugated steel main doors applied,
and those cars were renumbered 11000-11299. I have no information on
the 23000-23044 series, but I'm sure they were also double sheathed
cars because the NKP did not acquire any single sheathed box or auto
cars in the 1920s, but went straight from double sheathed wood to all
steel construction; their only single sheathed box cars were the
8000-8199 series AAR "war emergency" box cars they received in 1944.

Richard Hendrickson


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In Classic Trains summer '04, pp 56-63, there's an article on the
rebuilding of old NKP 12000-series DS auto cars, into 24000-series
cars with steel bodies. There are several photos of cars in both the
old and new series. The rebuilding program took place in 1945-47.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.


--- In STMFC@..., "laramielarry" <ostresh@...> wrote:

Hi Folks

Does anyone know whether the following NKP series of box and auto
cars were double sheathed vs. single sheathed? Some remnants were

in

the April 1949 ORER, but all were absent from the July 1950 ORER.
Most series were nearly full in the January 1945 ORER, however. If
you also happen to have build or rebuild dates, I would appreciate
knowing that as well.

Series, Class, Type, Frame, IL, IH, door, CAPY, Qty 1945, Qty 1949

NKP 9000-9467, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 9'11, 6'0", 80000 lbs, 466, 13

NKP 11000-11299, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 8'8", 6'0", 80000 lbs, 204, 5

NKP 12000-12999, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 10'0", 6'0", 80000 lbs, 987, 31

NKP 21000-21299, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 8'8", 6'0", 80000 lbs, 198, 7

NKP 23000-23044, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 10'0", 10'0", 80000 lbs, 45, 2
(in the 1945 ORER, this was listed as class XA, Auto)

The following series (just one car!) is in the April 1949 ORER; it

is

not in the January 1940, January 1945, or July 1950 ORERs:
NKP 23600-23660, XAP, Auto, SU, 40'6", 10'0", 10'0", 80000 lbs,
Qty 1949 = 1

Thanks in advance for whatever help you can give.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Tom:



Very well stated. I happen to agree with the way Martin runs Sunshine.



Paul C. Koehler



_____

From: STMFC@... [mailto:STMFC@...] On Behalf Of Tom
Madden
Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2007 11:37 AM
To: STMFC@...
Subject: [STMFC] Re: Computers



Chuck Hladik wrote:

I think that I can understand why Martin and others "don't do
computers". They bite into their limited time more than a phone
call does. Having to answer the e-mail might add an hour or two to
their day. ..... It also seems that a lot of the e-mails want
attention immediately...

Martin "does computers", he just refuses to "do the internet" or "do
email". For exactly the reasons Chuck states. He is also very careful
to whom he gives his telephone number. He has more labor-intensive
business than he can handle as it is, and is certainly not looking for
ways to attract more. It's a fairly defensive posture, irritating to
many. Martin is very aware of that but feels he just can't make himself
more available without giving up research or production time. It's his
business, being run in a way that works best for him. He has a right to
do that.

Tom Madden

Chuck Hladik wrote:

I think that I can understand why Martin and others "don't do
computers". They bite into their limited time more than a phone
call does. Having to answer the e-mail might add an hour or two to
their day. ..... It also seems that a lot of the e-mails want
attention immediately...

Martin "does computers", he just refuses to "do the internet" or "do
email". For exactly the reasons Chuck states. He is also very careful
to whom he gives his telephone number. He has more labor-intensive
business than he can handle as it is, and is certainly not looking for
ways to attract more. It's a fairly defensive posture, irritating to
many. Martin is very aware of that but feels he just can't make himself
more available without giving up research or production time. It's his
business, being run in a way that works best for him. He has a right to
do that.

Tom Madden

Sometimes the railroading documents we uncover ( ... about freight
cars, to stay on topic .... ) have their limitations.


- Drafting economics. In B&O lettering diagrams, the graphics are
only ROUGHED IN. To save drafting time. Only the stencil drawings
themselves are to scale and accurate. Worst example of this is the
B&O public relations railfan handouts, which are derived from the
former, not the latter. I know manufacturers and modelers who will
pound the table about how accurate they are, when actually they are
unwittingly using a nonscale drawing. It looks nice. But ain't
quite right.


- Unique railroad fonts. Freight car lettering is stenciled, not
printed. Applications on rollong equipment are highly constrained
and vary from railroad to railroad. In the time it would take to
adapt a printers font for a railroad use, the railroad might as well
invent their own. So they did. This uniqueness also applied to
letter size. The B&O fonts have a family look but do not scale from
size to size. Finding a 1 1/2 inch font does not help with the 33
inch billboard "B&O". Traditionally, decal manufacurers tried to
find a printers font that was close enough (Champ). Good then. Bad
now.


- Proposals only. The railroad drafting room is often asked to
produce alternative artwork. One may win and actually be painted on
freight cars. That drawing may not survive but an unused proposal
drawing does, and is used by us rail buffs as fact. In the B&O
Society we have two Timesaver Service boxcar lettering drawings, for
the blue M-55h boxcar with orange comet. A good one and a bad one.
(Don't worry, I provided Sunshine with the good one). The bad one
is a template for tracing additional proposals, hence it is
incomplete and misleading. Anyone happening on the bad one first
will embrace it and not even look for the good one.


- Flip-flops. In the dynamic life of an idea or project, the memo
trail can change the program direction 180 degrees in one sentance.
Then back, next memo. And if you have a long memo trail, do you
have the last one? Example: The B&O acquired 300 1951 vintage welded
triple ribbed hoppers from C&EI in 1961. In 1963, these were
authorized for the Gold Striper unit train program. This was
recinded the next day, by memo. What if you only see the first memo?
Are you sure you have the last word? You never really know.


- Terminology. Common words can have a specific meaning in a
railroad context. Non freight car example: train discontinuance
mostly means the first day the train does not run, the first day of
the new timetable, the first when equipment and crew is no longer
needed. Many historians think it means the last run. So a host of
railroad books citing the end of service are off by a day, thinking
discontinuance means last run. Beware of any book that says "train
discontinued on <a certain date>". They may be quoting something,
and not know the difference. What are they saying? Do they even
know?


- Context. In B&O freight car retirements, we have several
sources of information. A memo from the field offers up a bad order
car for condemnation. A systemwide condemnation certificate of all
such equipment is approved and published. Local car shops act on
these orders and dismantle the car with a certain form sent to
headquarters. Accountants log it in the ledgers. Each of these
actions has a different date, often months apart. Only one of these
is the retirement date (publication of the condemnation certificate)
and only one (the mechanical form sent to HQ) has the actual
dismantling date. If you see the other forms without knowing the
difference, any of these dates can be incorrectly cited. One of our
main B&O rolling stock researchers has this mixed up and does not
acknowledge it. I am tempted to redo his entire research base on my
own, to get it right.


This may sound like nothing is credible, nothing is right. Before
you get discouraged, just do the best you can with what you have.
Just be prepared to have your mind changed for you.

Gerry,

From the GSMTS website (www.gsmts.com), it doesn't look like Martin
will be there. Last year he tried to do the winter show, but got
snowed out. Hopefully he'll make it this year.

Dan Miller


--- In STMFC@..., "gerard_fitzgerald" <gfitzgerald@...>
wrote:

On a related topic....Is Martin going to be at Timonium next month?

Gerry Fitzgerald

--- In STMFC@..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: benjaminfrank_hom

I wrote:
"Sunshine Models has no website or e-mail. . ."

Kurt Laughlin replied:
"On the other hand, given that we're almost through 2007, people

may be

just be thinking that this statement has got to be a typo . . ."

...but true nevertheless. You can ask Martin about it yourself the
next time you see him at Naperville, Monrovia, or Timonium.

----- Original Message -----

I could say more, but that would clearly fall under

the "Criticism of a

manufacturer's business practices" taboo. I will say that of all

my

hobbies, model railroading has the highest number of vendors who

proudly

"don't do computers." In all of military/aircraft modeling, I

can only

think of *one* manufacturer (a resin kit producer, BTW) who does

not

operate

via the Internet. He does, however, take phone orders and ships

within two

weeks.

KL

On a related topic....Is Martin going to be at Timonium next month?

Gerry Fitzgerald

--- In STMFC@..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...> wrote:

----- Original Message -----
From: benjaminfrank_hom

I wrote:
"Sunshine Models has no website or e-mail. . ."

Kurt Laughlin replied:
"On the other hand, given that we're almost through 2007, people may be
just be thinking that this statement has got to be a typo . . ."

...but true nevertheless. You can ask Martin about it yourself the
next time you see him at Naperville, Monrovia, or Timonium.

----- Original Message -----

I could say more, but that would clearly fall under the "Criticism of a
manufacturer's business practices" taboo. I will say that of all my
hobbies, model railroading has the highest number of vendors who

proudly

"don't do computers." In all of military/aircraft modeling, I can only
think of *one* manufacturer (a resin kit producer, BTW) who does not

operate

via the Internet. He does, however, take phone orders and ships

within two

weeks.

KL

Hi Folks

Does anyone know whether the following NKP series of box and auto
cars were double sheathed vs. single sheathed? Some remnants were in
the April 1949 ORER, but all were absent from the July 1950 ORER.
Most series were nearly full in the January 1945 ORER, however. If
you also happen to have build or rebuild dates, I would appreciate
knowing that as well.

Series, Class, Type, Frame, IL, IH, door, CAPY, Qty 1945, Qty 1949

NKP 9000-9467, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 9'11, 6'0", 80000 lbs, 466, 13

NKP 11000-11299, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 8'8", 6'0", 80000 lbs, 204, 5

NKP 12000-12999, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 10'0", 6'0", 80000 lbs, 987, 31

NKP 21000-21299, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 8'8", 6'0", 80000 lbs, 198, 7

NKP 23000-23044, XM, Box, SU, 40'6", 10'0", 10'0", 80000 lbs, 45, 2
(in the 1945 ORER, this was listed as class XA, Auto)

The following series (just one car!) is in the April 1949 ORER; it is
not in the January 1940, January 1945, or July 1950 ORERs:
NKP 23600-23660, XAP, Auto, SU, 40'6", 10'0", 10'0", 80000 lbs,
Qty 1949 = 1

Thanks in advance for whatever help you can give.

Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming

Here is a message from Johnb that, while referencing a terminated thread and in violation of the signing rule [ members are required to sign their full name...first and last ], contains a point that I think is important for STMFC members to be aware of. I'm therefore letting it in [ however, John, we'd like to know who you are ]:

"Trains and the logging "history" magazine, Tall Timber
Shortlines," are publications I find very irritating since
they include no references. Mike's example (message 66278)
is a good one. An author's opinion may be valid and
published for the first time, but by the use of parallel
references (or no references), it should be made clear that
the opinion is the author's alone.

I have heard several times that readers do not want
references. As they ordinarly take up but a few lines of type,
and the readers are not forced to read them, the excuse is
pure @$$%%&. I hope Mike will encourage references in this
group when authors take the trouble to give them."

I fully support references. If someone is going to maintain that UP was one of the first RR's to use the the round [ W-section ] cornered box car, for example, I'd like to know the source for this. See the late Terry Metcalfe's Union Pacific Freight Cars 1936-51, pg 17. In the Occasional <G> comment regarding color on the STMFC, I appreciate the writer referencing a photo in a book or website. While references obviously don't grant truth, they do, at least, tell us that the author isn't alone in his/her proclamation. Hmmm. I wonder how many people have referenced that article in Trains Magazine that I found so distateful?

Mike Brock
STMFC Owner

I think that I can understand why Martin and others "don't do computers".
They bite into their limited time more than a phone call does. Having to answer
the e-mail might add an hour or two to their day. Hey, these guys have
families too. True, a web site saves the cost of a printed catalog and mistakes
can be changed easily and quickly, but some of us "listers" bug the crap out
of manufacturers with little nit picky stuff that if we were really as
proficient as we think we are, might be answered by looking closer at the web page.
It also seems that a lot of the e-mails want attention immediately, gee, try
the phone, one doesn't sit at the computer just to see your e-mail.
A web site also seems, to many, to be a cheap way to contact someone. I
know that in the hobby shop that I have worked in, we would only get one or
two snail mails a month, where as we got tons of phone calls and e-mails. These
all took us away from the folks that would actually come to the shop.
There are many pro's and con's to looking for a freight car (required)
on a computer. If they don't want to use one just be happy that they are
fulfilling some of our kit needs.
Thanks,
Chuck Hladik



************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com

Lindsay Smith wrote:
"Are you looking for Proto Power West and A-Line?"

Different manufacturer, Lindsay. ProtoWest is a resin kit
manufacturer; Proto Power West/A-Line is not:
http://www.protowestmodels.com/


Ben Hom

I wrote:
"Sunshine Models has no website or e-mail. . ."

Kurt Laughlin replied:
"On the other hand, given that we're almost through 2007, people may be
just be thinking that this statement has got to be a typo . . ."

...but true nevertheless. You can ask Martin about it yourself the
next time you see him at Naperville, Monrovia, or Timonium.


Ben Hom

John Stokes wrote:

"My understanding of the term as it is used in reference to
railroads, is that it refers to the Mid West farming belt states,
including Iowa, Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Nebraska and Wisconsin and
the railroads that operated there."

Mine as well. I'd like to find statistical data to define it rather
than opinion.

The grain trade being the raison d'être for grannger railroads, it
seems to me that one ought to be able use the percentage of gross
income that grain provided railroads to determine membership in the
granger railroad club.

I'm quite familar with grange halls. There were a couple where I grew
up. My 4-H club had events at them.


Eric Petersson

Are you looking for Proto Power West and A-Line. Try ppw-aline@... !
I trust Joe and his crew!
Lindsay Smith


---------------------------------
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search.

Don Worthy wrote:
"I am, also, interested in these cars. Where do I order them from??
Is there an email address or mail address that I didn't see?"

We seem to answer this question at least once a month and people don't
appear to be paying attention.

The basics:
Sunshine Models has no website or e-mail. Order kits direct from:

Sunshine Models
PO Box 4997
Springfield MO 65808-4997

Missouri residents add 6.6% sales tax. Add $4.00 shipping per five
kits for delivery to US, $15.88 shipping per six kits for delivery to
Canada.


Ben Hom

--- In STMFC@..., "benjaminfrank_hom" <b.hom@...> wrote:

Rob Kirkham wrote:
[From Ted Culotta's 1932 ARA boxcar book:]
"'However the truck centres were spaced at a distance of 31' - 2

3/4",

approximately six inches greater than the 30'-8 1/2" between truck
centres on the majority of the 1932 ARA cars.'
And at p.197, speaking of the next series of 1932 ARA design cars:
'Like the first 1000 cars, this group used truck centres spaced at a
distance of 31' - 2 3/4".'"

Al Brown replied:
"If the truck centers were 6" farther apart than normal, that indeed
suggests the kingpins were 3" closer to the car end. I stand by what
I said, though, about the appearance. Check out the side-on photos
on pp 200 (both), 203 (top), 204 (top). The wheels are visibly
offset in from the car end."

Rob, thanks for confirming the different spacing used on the SAL
1932 ARA boxcars. You will need to relocate the side sill tabs
with the bolsters. That's an easy enough fix - just fabricate the
new tabs from strip styrene and detail them with two Grandt Line or
Tichy rivets.

This does bring up another thing to verify - we need to check to
see if the Hundman drawings have the correct bolster locations.

The three MM issues Ben quoted earlier *all* have drawings, and get
this: they're all different.
10/92 (MEC): 30' 8 1/2" between kingpins, 41' 8 1/2" over strikers.
11/92 (SAL): 31' 2 3/4" between kingpins, 42' 3 3/4" over strikers.
1/93 (WM): 30' 8 1/2" between kingpins, 42' 8 3/4" over strikers. The
WM car has a Duryea underframe.

For the MEC and SAL cars, if you subtract the "between kingpin"
distance from the "over striker" distance and split the difference
between the two ends, the kingpin-to-striker distance is the same
within a half-inch. The SAL car is 6 1/4" longer *between* kingpins,
I don't know why.

Al Brown, Melbourne, Fla.

Ben Hom

Hi Folks

The granger railroads heavily favored single sheathed boxcars over
double sheathed in 1950, much more so than did the rest of the U.S.
RRs. This suggests that if DS was preferred over SS for grain
service when the USRA DS and SS cars were allocated, that may not
have been the case soon after. The size of the imbalance depends on
how one defines "granger railroad", of course: For the "Core"
granger roads, the DS/SS split was 4% DS and 96% SS, while for all
other roads it was 27% DS and 73% SS.


This is a supplement to my earlier post (#66103), which discussed the
situation as of April 1949.


Overview of grain service cars, U.S. railroads, July 1950:

Here is the DS/SS/Steel split for 40' class XM boxcars with 6' doors
and in interchange service, for all classes of U.S. railroads, July
1950:
U.S._____%____Number
DS_____6.1%____29,634
SS_____23.8%____115,926
Steel_____69.2%____337,029
Other_____0.8%____4,038
Known_____99.9%____486,627
Unknown_____0.1%____505
Total_____100.0%____487,132
DS %_____20.3%
SS %_____79.4%

The last two lines record the DS/SS split: They are calculated by
dividing the number of DS or SS cars by the sum of the numbers of DS,
SS and Unknown cars. For the U.S. 40' boxcar fleet in 1950 the DS/SS
split was one DS for every four SS.


Liberal interpretation of "Granger Railroads":

Roads: ATSF, C&S, CB&Q, CGW, CMO, CNW, FTDDM&S, FW&D, GM&O, GN, IC,
KCS, KO&G, M&STL, MILW, M-K-T, MP, MV, NP, RI, SLSF, SOO, T&P, TP&W,
UP, WABASH.
(44% of U.S. boxcars)
Lib, Gr_____%____Number
DS_____7.6%____16,496
SS_____36.7%____79,379
Steel_____53.8%____116,519
Other_____1.9%____4,028
Known_____99.9%____216,422
Unknown_____0.1%____145
Total_____100.0%____216,567
DS %_____17.2%
SS %_____82.7%
Over two-thirds (11,114) of the DS cars were on the Great Northern.

For comparison, the next table shows the non-granger roads, that is,
the RRs not in the above list.
Lib, NGr_____%____Number
DS_____4.9%____13,138
SS_____13.5%____36,547
Steel_____81.5%____220,510
Other_____0.0%____10
Known_____99.9%____270,205
Unknown_____0.1%____360
Total_____100.0%____270,565
DS %_____26.3%
SS %_____73.0%
The DS/SS split is shown in the last two lines of both tables: For
the granger roads as here defined, this is 17% DS and 83% SS, while
for the non-granger RRs it is 26% DS and 73% SS.


A more restrictive interpretation of "Granger Railroads":

Granger roads: CB&Q, CGW, CMO, CNW, GM&O(C&A), IC, KO&G, M&STL, MILW,
M-K-T, MV, RI, SLSF, SOO, TP&W, WABASH.
(25% of U.S. boxcars)
Restr, Gr_____%____Number
DS_____2.2%____2,709
SS_____48.4%____58,513
Steel_____49.2%____59,432
Other_____0.0%____10
Known_____99.9%____120,664
Unknown_____0.1%____135
Total_____100.0%____120,799
DS %_____4.4%
SS %_____95.4%

Non-Granger – The rest of the U.S. (not on above list):
Restr, NGr_____%____Number
DS_____7.3%____26,925
SS_____15.7%____57,413
Steel_____75.8%____277,597
Other_____1.1%____4,028
Known_____99.9%____365,963
Unknown_____0.1%____370
Total_____100.0%____366,333
DS %_____31.8%
SS %_____67.8%
The DS/SS split is 4% DS and 95% SS for the granger RRs, 32% DS and
68% SS for the non-granger. There was one DS to over twenty SS for
the granger roads, while the ratio was about one to two for the non-
granger RRs.


A very limited interpretation of "Granger Railroads" (the "Core"):

Granger roads: CB&Q, CMO, CNW, MILW, RI, SOO, CGW, M&STL, GM&O(C&A).
(18% of U.S. boxcars.)
Core_____%____Number
DS_____1.7%____1,487
SS_____46.8%____40,014
Steel_____51.3%____43,793
Other_____0.0%____10
Known_____99.8%____85,304
Unknown_____0.2%____130
Total_____100.0%____85,434
DS %_____3.6%
SS %_____96.1%

Non-Granger – The rest of the U.S. (not on above list):
Non-Core_____%____Number
DS_____7.0%____28,147
SS_____18.9%____75,912
Steel_____73.0%____293,236
Other_____1.0%____4,028
Known_____99.9%____401,323
Unknown_____0.1%____375
Total_____100.0%____401,698
DS %_____27.0%
SS %_____72.7%
The DS/SS split is 4% DS and 96% SS for the granger RRs, 27% DS and
73% SS for the non-granger. This is a split of one to twenty-four
for the granger roads, and about one to three for the others.


Best wishes,
Larry Ostresh
Laramie, Wyoming